ASTAP

We can't afford those $900 wine bottles your mommy and daddy regularly import from vineyards in France and Italy no, but we can afford to get drunk on cheap booze just fine.

Actually I guess if I was sending 107% of my paycheck directly to your bank account like what you propose here then I would not be able to but for now I can.

They would if they are basically suggested to as a legal means of surviving.  People are willing to do a lot if it means surviving.

If they have to contribute to society significantly to survive, they need to do what they gotta do.

They would keep their jobs and continue to get paid.  Since they are registered, the government could track them down if they don't pay their taxes like everyone else.  This is to get rid of the income tax and to encourage more income production.  Income taxes discourage income, which is why the rich ship their money overseas, to escape the taxes.

Like contributing more to society in order to make ends meet.  I showed a way for them to have 4-5 digit profits at the end of year with all of their expenses paid for by their salary.

How would they be suffering if they are making a profit at the end of the year?  Right now, poor people are living paycheck to paycheck.  Under my plan, they can save for retirement, or they can invest it in stock or something useful instead of spending every penny they earn.

They would pay their taxes, so for the most part, no jail is necessary.

Both communist revolutions and the French revolution were driven by the fact that poor people weren't getting enough to eat.  I showed how they could get enough to eat under ASTAP.

The rich aren't oppressing the poor under this; they would merely keep what they earned from profit and the poor would keep what they earned from wages.

A Tent is a place to sleep.  If they were homeless, they would sleep on benches or some place outside and if it rains, they're screwed.  A Tent protects them from rainfall so it kindof classifies as a home.

You can get a bank account and a job without owning or renting a house.

If they eat pre cooked Turkey and Cheese sandwiches or a PB&J or something that doesn't need cooking, they don't need a stove.  I showed how they could stay clean body wise.  There are laundromats that charge a quarter to wash your clothes.  A poor person can go to one of these places to clean their clothes, as what many do already.  What's wrong with my solution?

They don't because they have no job.  If they are forced to pay taxes like what most other people have to pay, and if they are encouraged to get a job to pay these expenses, then the government could force them to get jobs in order to pay for themselves without welfare.  I don't want to subsidize the existence of lazy people unwilling to get a job.

Imagine a person who looks normal, they just haven't showered in a day and they offer you a dollar just to shower in your house for 10 minutes.  You remove everything that they might want to steal from the room, and you let them shower for the 10 minutes, they pay you $1, and the homeowner just made $1 profit for renting out their shower.

If they say yes, they might want the $1.

Because if the poor people have more kids, they get more in welfare.  Under this plan, the poor stop having kids they don't need and they stay in touch with their existing kids.

If you can't afford to rent a house on your own, I never recommended a cardboard box.  I recommended a tent and I've slept in a tent dozens of times.  It's an effective shelter for people that protect them from rain and snow.

People will always break the law of the alternative consequences to breaking the law is preferable to not breaking the law.

Not paying taxes in order to not Lose your home, your kids, and working 12 hour days 360 days a year seems a pretty preferable.

I’m finding this hilarious: are you 14? Because your understanding of human nature sort of implies you live under a rock.

If we punish not paying taxes with jail time, then this would cause people to pay taxes.  If it's like that for the rich in America, it ought to be like that for the poor.

I am not 14.

How do I live under the rock?  I know someone who is openly on welfare.  However, I want them off of welfare, I want the income tax gone on the basis that it discourages income production, therefore harming our GDP per capita, and I think that those who make money should keep what they earn so thy invest it in more business to make American society better.

All other points dropped.  I am not trolling, I just have strong opinions.

Easy there Stalin.

Parents aren’t going to pay taxes if the choice is definitely lose your home and kids - or not pay tax and maybe lose your home and kids in a year’s time. Literally anyone in that position chooses the second.

This is not even going into enforcement: you can’t arrest anyone if you don’t know where they are. You can’t incarcerate anyone if the police think the law is unfair (which given that the law is been handed down by an authoritarian psychopath who doesn’t mind destroying a generation of children, because he views other humans as parasites), you don’t have the capacity to hold them, or to give them trials, and few judges are going to demand a family in abject poverty go to jail for not paying a tax they can’t afford.

And even if you do manage to send them to jail; how are you going to ramp up prison time; forced labor camps? A Gulag where peope are forced to work 16 hour days and fed sandwiches?

Basically, your plan is to take the most vulnerable individuals in society - demanding they give up their children, work 12 hour days, abandon their homes and live in tents - otherwise the ruling regime will arrest them and send them to forced labor camps.

And no: these aren’t dropped points - you’re literally responding with nonsensical and unintelligeable clap trap that has no possibility of working.

Theres no point in me addressing every line you’re writing because none of them are answering the key points I’m making. 

The world and humans don’t work the way you claim; and I can go through each line one by one and tell you they’re dumb and people don’t work like that, but quite frankly it’s better just to point out the core fallacy that you keep refusing to address.

But quite frankly, if you don’t get that parents don’t just give up their children, there’s probably no way of fixing you’re level stupid.

I think you should ask, say, any other human on the planet whether the idea is good or not: I’m sure it will be close to unanimous.

So let’s cover the reality once again in detail - you don’t seem to be able to answer these other than to deny themz

1.) Mass exodus of those in poverty from their housing, creating tent cities and shanty towns which create substantial crime, gangs, drug addiction; have poor sanitation and generate substantial health problems. (This happens with favelas and slums today)

2.) The government will force low income families to give away the children they can’t afford, or force them into labor camps to work 16 hour days to pay off any government debt and expenditure. (This is your policy)

3.) Suicide and addiction levels will skyrocket due to increased stress, overwork, lost children and the impact of massive working hours on social lives. (This happens today with those under major stress and in poverty - you’d be making it work)

4.) The concurrent double whammy of increased taxes and decreased welfare will push many into extreme poverty. Those above the poverty line will be pushed downwards into extreme poverty. Those at the bottom already struggling need to cross their fingers and hope they can find more jobs.  (This is the impact of your policy)

5.) Millions who are unable to find local work, or are laid off and can’t easily find replacement work; due to not enough stop-and-shops, or the sudden millions of people in areas of high unemployment competing for thousand spots of employment, now become desperate. Students, those unable to find employment, the disabled, those with long term illnesses and those already working two jobs, together with those unwilling or unable to up their hours (work won’t allow it, too much competition for available hours, etc) are unable to pay their taxes. (This is the nature of US employment right now, the US needs to add millions of low paid job hours across the country in areas of high unemployment rather than adding them unequally in various areas).

6.) The rates of insured people plummet due to increased poverty. Infant and child malnutrition rises, health issues relating to poor malnutrition, increased addiction, and stress began decreasing the life expectancy of those below the poverty line. (This is what happens now)

7.) Illnesses such as cholera spread through slums and tent cities due to lack of adequate sanitation. Those in the cities find it hard to find work due to the stigma of living in these areas. (This is what happens in slums and favellas now)

8.) Waves is arrests of people unable to pay their taxes; taking the unemployed and those in extreme poverty. People are sent to makeshift forced labour camps; pending trial due to lack of capacity. Outcry as deaths due to overwork, torture and abuse from the hastily hired and poorly trained labour camp guards due to being unable to ramp up the prison industrial complex to cope with the number of new people. (This is what has happened in many places in the past, ramping up law enforcement and those in a position of authority often has limited over site and leads to abuses)

9.) Foster care collapses with the millions of new children and not enough willing foster parents. Orphanages and care facilities cannot hire enough trained care givers, together with a lack of available resources leads to the abuse and neglect of hundreds of thousands of children - leading to major long term mental health issues for a generation. This leads to a generation more likely to remain in the same poverty. (Health consequences are what happens now, the rest has happened in Romania in the past, and is highly likely due to there already being a shortage of foster careers, leave alone if there is a major 10-20 times uptick in children requiring it.)

10.) Prison, arrest, tracking and management of millions of new prisoners; together with falling tax income due to tens of millions being unable to pay causes instability. Barter and black market in shanty towns supplants legitimate work, lack of identification and tracability of those living in slums makes it impossible for the government to easily track down those delinquent on taxes. Government cost increases with new law enforcement, Tax shortfall from those not paying drives up the deficit. (This happens today in slums, the rest is a consequence)

Capital begin flees the US due to instability and unrest: Billionaires flee the US, hold off investing in the US. Worldwide boycotts of the us government and associated products due to the outrageous new laws begin harming the US economy, former allies sanction us government officials. (This type of thing happens today)

11.) Widespread civil unrest as individual stories of abuse and death in prison camps, sit over and above the building resentment at the forced mass arrests of the American population and the perceived unfairness of a rich ruling class breaking the backs of hard working Americans who are arrested for being poor. Protests turn violent, with armed clashes with police; shanty towns become no go zones. Popular revolt over throws the government with military support (due to low income backgrounds of many) mass arrested prison populations released; provisional government rolls backs taxes: prominent conservatives responsible for the inhumane policies are tried and convicted of terrorism against Americans and expected.(This happens repeatedly when income inequality becomes substantial - and has occurred multiple times)

Unfortunately, on the one hand, what we see happening today and in the past in similar situations tells us your ideas are stupid and would end up destroying the USA. On the other hand, you’re telling us it won’t happen because people can buy sandwiches and will happily give up their kids.

Your plan is bad, and you should feel bad

I bought a house just fine, but I would not have been able to do so if I was sending 107% of my income to your bank account. Getting a loan under those conditions would be... problematic.

Nowhere did you say sleep in a tent for a few weeks, you said live in a tent. You have never lived in a tent in your life lmao.

You are definitely trolling. Your open embrace of the "those disgusting pesants don't deserve to live as well as they do" trope seals it.

When did you live in a tent?

About the same time he lived on nothing but stop and shop sandwiches, worked 12 hour days, gave up his children for adoption, and begged nearby home owners for showers.

Glad I have only had to do one of those things, and the least bad one at that.

I picture Alecs backstory as involving two great role model parents that sat him down one day to explain that the reason he had to choose between having a pony or a helicopter ride for his birthday and could not have both was because they could not afford both due to his birthday being so close to tax season.

He chose the helicopter ride but goes to sleep every night wishing that he had chosen the pony so that he could have a loyal companion to share his lonliness with since all the other pesant children are so unworthy to be in his presense. Now he is on a quest to make sure no upper-class child ever has to face such traumatic heartbreak ever again.

Hey... that would make a great movie. (Hollywood, call me! There is so much more where that came from I promise!)

I'm really torn here: either he is the most naive and clueless individual I have met in 20 years in the internet, or he is the best and most consistently in character Troll I have seen in those same 20 years. 

Did not happen.  Too tired to respond to all points.

So, ignoring the practical matters here already discussed, let’s talk about basic economics.

Those on lower incomes tend to spend much of their available income on things like food, accommodation, gas, necessities, etc.

Those on higher incomes will spend but they tend to invest and save the majority of their money.

What this means, is that strangling the available income of lower and middle income families currently paying less than 12,000 dollars in tax is going to strangle income going to businesses providing goods and services. This is related to the velocity of money. $100 in the hands of the low income gets spent rapidly, the companies where they spend it tens to be low margin (eg Walmart), and have low pay employees, meaning that in a year that $100 has been spent multiple times.

$100 in the hands of a billionaire, tends to go towards buying stocks, bonds and financial instruments. While IPOs will generate cash that will get spent, investing into stock mostly just transfers money between individuals and generates economic activity much more slowly.

If stop and shops have less income from food, gas, stops as the low income users of these goods and services use them less - this means that you will have closures and layoffs due to decreased income.


This means that such a tax would be devastating for the US economy. The lack of income would mean that retail and low level service sectors in the US would contract massively. Layoffs would be substantial, completely undermining the ability to offer full employment, and eliminating the ability for the US to pay it bills.

Worse, those owning property for rent; will find their property massively dropping in value - the number of renters will fall due to lack of ability to pay. This means the potential income from a house drops as does its value. As tens of millions of individuals now cannot afford a home any longer, the number of homes vastly outweighs the number of people that can afford them and house prices collapse.

Those who own a home for rent are forced to either sell at a loss, eat bankruptcy and foreclosure; those that bought cheap may lower their rental prices but earn less and have less money to spend contracting the economy further.

The middle class that own their homes - faced with a major recession and collapsing house prices either have to eat bankruptcy also, or eat massive levels of negative equity in their homes (During the Great Recession - many simply decided to go bankrupt, and then rent - passing the cost onto the bank).

The banking sector - which still trades mortgage backed securities - collapses as current regulations and stress tests do not envisage the apocalyptic scenario of tens of millions being unable to afford their house all at once.

The stock market collapses and wipes the majority of wealth from the high income individuals.

The lack of available lending and loans, prevents small businesses from starting up or expanding, crippling the economy and preventing economic growth from resolving the issue.

The US enters a downward spiral due to deflation from falling prices, and increasing unemployment, and as a result the US government is unable to raise income from the unemployed, the US enters a second great depression.

Other countries have a more progressive tax systems are able to recover faster whilst the US languishes. Due to US deflation (caused by falling values caused by supply and demand forcing down prices), millionaires and billionaires transfer their wealth into more stable currencies and countries - causing the dollar to collapse in value. For the first time, the US experiences a brain drain of highly educated individuals leaving the Us as the overall quality of life and standard of living crater. 

When did you live in a tent? Don't need an exact date, just a year.

Need to figure out what type of business his family owns so we can use this point but in the context of something he can more easily relate to (he clearly does not have enough empathy to relate to the rich kids whose parents own those businesses you mentioned)

I suspect at least one of them may be in insurance. Notice that in the excel spreadsheet he says he wants the lowest class people of his dystopia to pay at least $12k a year in insurance on their cardboard boxes and rusty hand-me-down dirtbikes.

I guess we’re right - the adult tax is now removed, and the system doesn’t mandate people live in tents.

Is ASTAP better now?  BTW, your stereotypes of me are poor conduct.  Neither one of my parents own a business.  They're both teachers.

Idk, I haven't looked. Probably not. You still have a lot of questions to answer buddy...

When did you live in a tent? What the hell does ASTAP stand for? Did your parents ever hug and/or drop you on the head as a child? Have you ever worked a single day in your life?

Would cleansing the dirty pesants through violent bloodshed truly bring you happiness or would it just bring you a brief period of euphoria that quickly turns into a wicked hangover the next day as you wake up and realize that the empty bottle laying on the nightstand in front of your face is really a deep sounding yet ultimately meaningless metaphor for that pathetic string of semi-related events and emotionally unfulfilling flings that you call a life?

Oh... nevermind that last one. That got off track...

Actually I only care about that first question. Nevermind any of those others. I don't care about any of your non-tent-living opinions right now. We can get to those later, one thing at a time.

ASTAP no longer encourages poor people to live in a tent.  There is no income tax but everyone gets $1000 a month without taxing the rich just for being rich.

That does not answer my question. Let me try again:

Have you ever lived in a tent?

I have camped.  My record is 2 consecutive nights.

What is wealth?

Wealth is essentially greed dressed up as success.

Therefore greed tax should be the primary focus of your taxation system.

In fact, is ASTAP something that you have made up?  As I cannot find any references to it.

2 days...

Obvious troll is obvious.

I'm not trolling.  I just have a lot of messages to respond to.

LMAO That is not what I asked. I asked whether you lived in a tent before, not whether you slept in a tent before. The distinction is obvious but just in case it wasn't I pointed it out in the first post I asked you in.

Okay so it is obvious that you have never lived in a tent. Let's move up the list from worse to best...

Have you ever lived in a car? a trailer? studio apartment? mobile home? decent sized apartment?

This is all off the top of my head, my fellow poor people please feel free to fill in the blanks. I am sure I am missing a few.

ASTAP = A Seriously Trolly Attempt at Planning

Also is nobody going to point out that the latest version of the google doc in the OP sets the minimum wage at $35 and gives them an additional $12k out of nowhere? Are we just ignoring that elephant in the room? Not saying that's a bad idea, just asking...

ASTAP stands for Alec (My last name starts with S) TAx Plan.

The $35 an hour wage is the average wage for Americans, showing that the average American can pay the tax.  The rich obviously can.

The $12k a year is a salary the rich and the poor get.  It is different from UBI in how it's funded.  UBI was funded by higher income taxes.  This is funded by higher taxes on other things.

I loke the part where some of them say "this tax can be avoided by_______", but not the coffee one. Like it is physically impossible for the pesants to not drink coffee.