"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate

Author: 3RU7AL

Posts

Total: 737
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Alec
The question is, what is the "Biblical" teaching that makes denial of service mandatory? 
God says to live like he would. 
So, no shellfish, no divorce, no picking up sticks on Saturdays?

God doesn't allow gays in heaven. 
Citation please.

Therefore, religious people should have the right to emulate God on minor things like this.
I'm pretty sure god created the gays and allows the sun to shine upon them.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@keithprosser
Is a free lance web designer at liberty to turn down a commission from, say, a KKK lodge?
Is the KKK a religion?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
...force people to use their bodies to labor and provide services to those they have religious objections to.
I'm still waiting to hear those specific "religious objections".
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Snoopy
Don't be ridiculous.  You can't say that every community in America has a majority of reasonable businesses catering to the public in every sector.  Congress still needs to address this issue, adding something to the effect of "sexual orientation" to the civil rights act.
Well stated.
Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,472
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
-->
@3RU7AL
So, no shellfish, no divorce, no picking up sticks on Saturdays?
If that's what the bible says, it's what Christians have to do.  I"m glad I'm not Christian.

God doesn't allow gays in heaven.  
Citation please.



Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@Alec
You realize that the majority of Americans currently have issues with sexual immorality at some point in their life, right?

God doesn't allow gays in heaven. 
Why would you read scripture that has no mention of "gay", and spread falsehoods in the name of God?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Snoopy
In what way can it be considered discrimination to apply the,same standard equally to everyone? Please explain.
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@secularmerlin
If the standard is applied to differentiate between one thing and another, resulting in different outcomes, then naturally it is going to be discriminatory.  In post 26 its as if you contend that if the standard involves only one discriminatory act, rather than two or more, then that is not discrimination. 

TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
I'm still waiting to hear those specific "religious objections"
do I need one to not use my body/labor to do something for someone?  Can I be forced to use my body/labor under threat of violence?  aka police with guns, the law?
can a person have a moral objection without it being religious?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
Everything about this bill has to do with recognizing homosexual marriage as being legitimate.

It has nothing to do with hating anyone.
Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,472
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
-->
@3RU7AL
You realize that the majority of Americans currently have issues with sexual immorality at some point in their life, right?
Yes.  Virtually none of them are going to heaven.  I think this is tyrannical of God, but it's just the way it is.

The verses I presented said any male who has sex with other men won't go to heaven.
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@Alec
You realize that the majority of Americans currently have issues with sexual immorality at some point in their life, right?
Yes.  Virtually none of them are going to heaven.  I think this is tyrannical of God, but it's just the way it is.

The verses I presented said any male who has sex with other men won't go to heaven.

It seems possible that is the case.  We should make no claims of such knowledge, and it is not our place to judge.  Understand, just because you have sinned that does not mean you will not be in heaven.  But, surely, not everyone who says Lord will inherit the kingdom of heaven.  We all fall short of the glory of God, which is part of how miraculous the New Testament is.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Snoopy
I did not mention a discriminatory act at all in post 26 I asked you how applying the same standard universally to all individuals counts as discrimination. I even went so far as to suggest that this is the OPPOSITE of discrimination.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Snoopy
You realize that the majority of Americans currently have issues with sexual immorality at some point in their life, right?
Please give a rigorous definition of sexual immorality.

Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@secularmerlin
Please give a rigorous definition of sexual immorality.

Sex outside of marriage
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Alec
Yes.  Virtually none of them are going to heaven.  I think this is tyrannical of God, but it's just the way it is.

The verses I presented said any male who has sex with other men won't go to heaven.
In the absence of evidence of any such place this is largely irrelevant since there would be no reason to.think that anyone would be going to a place that cannot be demonstrated to exist.

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Snoopy
Sex outside of marriage
Please explain how this amounts to anything more than subjective personal opinion.
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@secularmerlin
That is what Christians have believed for the last 2000 years.  Sex and Marriage are in a sense, inseparable.  Sex is a part of marriage, and its not right to use people for sex.  What kind of explanation are you looking for? 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Snoopy
One that is not merely the subjective opinion of christians.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Alec
God doesn't allow gays in heaven.  
Citation please.

The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
This doesn't seem to be very specific.  Nothing about refusing service here.


We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
Nothing about refusing service here either.


Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@secularmerlin
Sexual immorality is clearly destructive to the individuals involved and society at large. Tolerating its existence is not the same thing as pretending there is nothing wrong with it or even worse, condoning it.


We do have a deeper insight to sexual immorality, and recognize it as a symptom of idolatry. To us, it is a shameful thing to be motivated by  our lusts and passions, which not only obscure truth, but compromise one's ability to love with purity.

For those like you who likely do not believe in idolatry or at least do not believe in it as we do, the psychological effects on society, the effect it has on the stability of the family, the exploitation of people, including women and children, and the spresd of disease should be obvious indicators to anyone who isn't perverse themselves that sexual immorality is in every way destructive and in no way should be encouraged.


Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
There is no mandatory rule that Christians cannot serve the immoral. In fact, it is integral to the faith to recognize that we all sin. We are called to serve all of mankind. This, however, has no value unless it is done without coercion and by one's free will.


However, for the state to force us into defiling our sanctuaries with a homosexual "marriage" is a violation of our right to have a place set apart and holy from such abominations. We would sooner give up our government licenses to marry than compromise on this issue.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Very relevant quote from John Chrysostom...

"The decision to receive treatment does not lie with the man who administers the medicine, but actually with the patient. That wonderful man, Paul, knew when this fact when he said to the Corinthians, "Not that we have lordship over your faith, but are helpers to your joy." For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumblings of sinners by force. When secular judges convict wrong-doers under the law, they show their authority is complete and compel men, whether they will or no, to submit to their methods. But in the case we are considering it is necessary to make a man better not by force but by persuasion. We neither have authority granted to us by law to restrain sinners, nor, if it were, should we know how to use it, since God gives the crown to those who are kept from evil, not by force, but by choice.

For this reason a lot of tact is needed, so that the sick may be persuaded of their own accord to submit to the treatment of the priests, and not only that, but be grateful to them for their cure. If a man struggles when he is bound(for he may still choose to), he makes his suffering worse. And if he ignores the words which cut like steel, he adds a second wound through his contempt, and intention to heal becomes the occasion of a more serious disease. For the man does not exist who can by compulsion cure someone else against their will."


And this should make clear a few things.

1. We recognize that spiritual illness is at the root of these issues, including sexual immorality.
2. We have a therepeutic method for curing these spiritual illnesses.
3. It is not on the healer but the sick to not only to consent to treatment, but follow through with it. 
4. We do not heal through compulsion, it has to be in the will of the one being healed.
5. The church is not intended to be a secular authority.



disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Define sexuality immorality.
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Alec
Prove that any god anywhere has ever said anything. And the cow jumped over the moon.
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
You conflate religious objections with moral objections. You need to elucidate on both and reconcile your conflation.
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Snoopy
So if men make rules about morality you believe them? WOW what other man made rules do you believe, the sun revolves around the earth perhaps?
You accept the morality of ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages who command people to stone their disobedient children to death? It's obvious that you are in dire need of questioning your morality.
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
We all need t-shirts saying what groups we belong to.  
I on the other hand have the ability to change from one religion to the next. 
I reckon if i was gay i could probably act straight. make a mockery of the whole system.
Or
Or look at it from the other way , If you're gay and you get a Christian baker to bake a cake for you like over five times,  then that Christian baker will find it next to impossible to enter heaven.
Get a christian baker to bake 10 cakes for undercover gay people and well it safe to say there isn't a chance in hell they are going to enter any kind of heaven place.
Imagine what a product like Piggy powder could do, a powder that contains a minimum 10,000 different piggies in one teaspoon. 

So religious people shoild be able to say no because they are risking alot by saying NO.
They might have accidentally served gay people already. GOD KNOWS . 


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Alec
The verses I presented said any male who has sex with other men won't go to heaven.
The verses merely listed sins.  It would seem bizarre to focus on homosexuality and ignore every other infraction on the list.
Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,472
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
-->
@3RU7AL
I guess.