"Religious Freedom" = Discrimination = Hate

Author: 3RU7AL

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@Mopac
Being ignorant, they are in denial of the religion they themselves practice, so don't expect any of them to confirm what I am saying about it.
The one crucial element missing from a so-called, "secular religion" is a dogmatic textbook.

Without a dogma, it can't properly be called a "religion".
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@Mopac
And so you know, the [EASTERN ORTHODOX] church is very tolerant.
Thank you very much.
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@3RU7AL
A religion doesn't need any writings whatsoever.

Just because you are in denial of your secular dogma does not mean it doesn't exist.


Denial of all dogma in itself could be a dogma!


Or if you want to be discordian about it, you can have your catma.






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And so you know, the [EASTERN ORTHODOX] church is very tolerant.
Thank you very much.


Know that even if we don't agree with what you do during your private time, we still love you and will not persecute you. We will be honest with you though, and sometimes that can seem hurtful, but we are honest because we love you. If we didn't love, we would tell people what they want to hear or say nothing at all. It is a lot easier to do that sometimes.

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@Snoopy
Yeah, actually I think that not discriminating would literally result in insanity

Are you using the word discriminate in the "tell something apart from something else" context? BEcause I agree, yes. I'm using it in the context that this topic is intended in: disciriminating is using someone's identity in some way to deny them goods or services or rights that are otherwise available, generally. 
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@ludofl3x
disciriminating is using someone's identity in some way to deny them goods or services or rights that are otherwise available, generally. 


The legislation in question is about protecting religious organizations.

It has nothing to do with say, an employee at walmart refusing to give a gay couple a cake.

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If the Church chooses not to host gay weddings (themselves, at their own Church), this has absolutely no bearing on whether or not individual members are allowed to attend or otherwise participate in gay weddings (at any other location).
not talking about if they are allowed, but if the practice and teaching parishioners to not recognize gay marriages, then again it's consistent for an individual to also do the same.
If a Church teaches members to "not recognize gay marriage" that should be in writing somewhere.

And even if you strictly "don't recognize gay marriage" that still shouldn't keep you from baking a cake for two dudes.

I mean, how can you object to a gay marriage UNLESS you first recognize it?

Sure, but the one thing does not make the other thing mandatory.  It's not a RULE.  There's no rule that says "don't make gay cakes".
right not mandatory, which also means they can choose to follow it in the way they think and interpret is best, which for some means no gay wedding cakes.  this is very consistent, those who would attend a gay wedding or otherwise support it are the ones not being consistent when in contrast to the teachings.
What teachings are you talking about?

The fact that a Church might refuse to host a rock concert, does not mean all members are banned from rock concerts.

The fact that a Church might refuse to host a carnival, does not mean all members are banned from carnivals.

as for specifics, if the baker was NOT in line with the teachings of his church/faith that would have been the primary point against him, I don't ever recall any such thing therefore it must have been consistent afaik.
THE SUPREME COURT CASE SKIPPED OVER THE RELIGIOUS OBJECTION COMPLETELY AND ONLY REFERENCED FREE-SPEECH.

it is widely known and accepted there are different interpretations/teachings based on the same books otherwise there could only be one church which could receive tax exempt status etc from the government, yet we know there are many.  Therefore your claim of inconsistency/hypocrisy doesn't matter as far as allowing some "sins" but not others, i.e. remarrying divorced people.
If someone claims a religious exemption, it has to be shown that the activity in question is considered either mandatory or specifically prohibited and that the individual is observant and dedicated to all of the edicts and is not cherry-picking.  Just show the text.

It has been shown how the baker's objection is consistent... 
No, no it has not.

...and must be accepted by the government on that basis as they already accept different churches and interpretations of the same book and recognize them as a church/religion.  Freedom of religion and separation of from government must also include to a large degree non enforcement of practice and interpretation by the government. 
A religious objection is not carte-blanche to follow whatever passing whim you might decide for yourself on the spur-of-the-moment.
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@Mopac
it allows people to believe and act on faith so long as it doesn't conflict with your own perverse ideas of what that should look like.



First off, I'm proud to be intolerant of racists and bigots of any stripe, and do my best to be that way loudly enough for anyone to hear it. I don't always succeed, but I certainly don't think we should tolerate racism, sorry. And you're again, unsurprisingly, incorrect on the above. I allow people to act on whatever voodoo they believe in, until it infringes on the rights duly granted by the law of anyone else. That's not the same thing as what you're saying above. The only way I think things 'should' look is equal treatment for all. When you get one group saying "Well, I get to pick on gay people and you can't stop me, because this book from two thousand years ago that features talking donkeys and a flat earth about the size of south America says so," then I have a problem. 

All of this could be easily solved if only...there were an authority we could all agree on, which would require that authority to demonsttrate itself in some decisive way and say "DO NOT SELL GAYS CAKES! I TOTALLY CARE ABOUT THAT!" Maybe one day. 
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@ludofl3x
If rights are something granted by a secular government, there are no rights, only privileges.

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@Mopac
The legislation in question is about protecting religious organizations.

It has nothing to do with say, an employee at walmart refusing to give a gay couple a cake.
You're the one who pointed out the specific text in the bill that clearly stated that - an employee, a manager, or an owner of a corporation is considered a "religious organization" (for the purposes of this legislation) even if they are not associated with any Church.
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@3RU7AL
I  used to volunteer at a Christian mission that did charity work. Not affiliated with any specific church. Still a religious organization.
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@3RU7AL
If a Church teaches members to "not recognize gay marriage" that should be in writing somewhere.
Isn't it easier to say "I don't do Hindu wedding cakes, see the ten commandments, it says there's only my God, not theirs, so under penalty of eternal torture, I can't do this, sorry Hindus" than it is to say the bible (religion) supports not making cakes for gays?

The freedom of speech objection I won't argue with, so maybe this is all moot. 
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@Mopac
A religion doesn't need any writings whatsoever.
If you would like to be recognized by the state, you certainly need something in writing.
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@Mopac
I  used to volunteer at a Christian mission that did charity work. Not affiliated with any specific church. Still a religious organization.
Anything called "Christian" has a text.  Perhaps you've heard of it?
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@Mopac
What if I did charity work for the Jedi temple, and because I'm a Jedi, I refused to serve Muslims because they are probably associated with the Sith. Am I entitled to tax exempt status? It's my religion. It is protected by law. 

More importantly, am I skating closer to the dark side than I might be aware, and thereby in danger of potentially becoming one of the Sith myself?
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@3RU7AL
A religious objection is not carte-blanche to follow whatever passing whim you might decide for yourself on the spur-of-the-moment.
thanks captain obvious, must be why I qualified the statement with "degree"

is considered either mandatory or specifically prohibited
afaik homosexuality is a sin and I believe you agree how it is viewed by some religions.  if aiding, enabling etc in a sin makes you complicit your complaint is "what about the other sins"  we are now going in circles, different churches teach different things with different emphasis on sins, subjects etc if they teach, believe that some sins are greater or minor, whatever, for you that invalidates their religion/church and and claims they could make to a religious objection (it's all or nothing with you) however the government does not take away their status as a church/religion afaik.  Whether you are right or wrong doesn't matter because it would seem it's acceptable because their status is not taken or made invalid by the government who rules over these issues/cases.
by your opinion there could never be a religious objection because I don't believe there is one single religion/church that treats all sins the same or equally.  Because there is a freedom of religion right, separation of church and state, the government has limited authority to make such rulings using the all or nothing argument like you would have them do.
you've successfully made me see the reason these laws come up and people fight so hard for them lol.


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@3RU7AL
Yeah, and what you need in writing is basically a group of people willing to sign a document that petitions the state to recognize you as a religion.

No scripture required.


And there are so many Christian heresies out there I am sure you can find one that rejects scripture all together.



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@ludofl3x
I don't know, what do I look like a lawyer?
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@Mopac
he's working for someone else and is asked to serve, not custom create, totally different subjects.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Let's get away maybe from the gay cake as essentially it's a first amendment issue. What about the inoculation against measles? This is a big topic in my area right now: people are claiming religious exemptions to these vaccinations, resulting in people who do NOT have religious objections getting infected with measles (the shortest term ramification). Should we sacrifice 'herd immunity' at the altar of an objection based somehow in religion (though it's not based in 'thou shalt not vaccinate,' it's more about how god is perfect and screwing with his creation is a sin I believe), particularly as it affects those who do not have that objection? Should these religious exempted populations be forced into an isolated geography, or have their children banned from public parks and schools? Are they now suffering because of religious discrimination from people who do not want to have measles?
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@ludofl3x
I bring up the cake issue because it's specific enough for what I find acceptable, that no one should have to custom create something they don't want to, no one has a right to someone else's labor.
The bible speaks specifically about homosexuality I'm not sure what the argument against vaccines etc is, if you do and feel like explaining it I will certainly read it.

What's the remedy for people who refuse vaccines?  If someone refused then what?
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@ludofl3x
Apparently, these measles vaccines have pig parts in them, so Jews and Muslims don't like them.

At least, that is what I heard from some Jews I know who were talking about it.


Fyi, if your measles vaccine doesn't prevent you from catching measles from somebody else, it sounds like a pretty worthless vaccine.
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@ludofl3x
But besides this, what about a right to your own body? How is it not a right to say, "I refuse to take vaccines." 

Why need a religious excuse?



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@TheDredPriateRoberts
...different churches teach different things with different emphasis on sins, subjects etc if they teach, believe that some sins are greater or minor,
Just show me the text.

Which Church says homosexuality is worse than adultery?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Basically it's pretty google-able. The Hasidic jewish population in both Brooklyn, NY and I believe in other enclaves are refusing to get measles vaccines (specifically the MMR vaccine common to young children) because they apparently believe god does not make mistakes in his creations, and inoculating is basically man getting in the way of god's will and saying "We'll fix this for you." They don't like that. The problem is that these measle carrying kids come into contact with children who have only gotten the first MMR (it requires a booster which means you aren't fully immune with only one shot), and measles is insanely communicable. They're bucking against prohibitions like "vaccinate or your child cannot attend public schools / cannot go to public parks / you will be cited and ticketed" stuff. If you look up US Measles Reported cases, it's at basically a 25 year high.

Is their religious objection legitimate, given that the Talmud does not state specifically do not vaccinate your child?

Are they subject to unlawful discrimination even if it's in the interest of the greater public good?

If they are allowed in public schools and then infect an entire classroom, is that fair to the families whose religions do NOT object to vaccination?


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@3RU7AL
Which Church says homosexuality is worse than adultery?
since we are talking about legal situations and discrimination I'm not sure that is a relevant legal argument.  Can you give me some laws or cases that prove all sins must be equal to claim a religious objection?

I understand you have a personal problem with what you consider hypocrisy/inconsistency but unless you can show how this comes into play legally within the context of the topics, you are just spinning your wheels.

From what I understand religious teachings are also based on interpretation of written text which is why there are disagreements as to how or why somethings are interpreted they way they are.  but you know this already.  and knowing this you know it's not possible to "just show you the text" even you your self have argued about how certain religious things are or have been interpreted.  I'm not making any religious objection perhaps you should ask those who do but I can understand how and why someone might.


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@Mopac
An odd argument to make...I'd hazard a guess you're not pro choice, but that's pretty much the argument pro choice people make. Bodily autonomy. Except you can't infect someone else by choosing to have an abortion. So I guess not apples to apples. 
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@ludofl3x
If they are allowed in public schools and then infect an entire classroom, is that fair to the families whose religions do NOT object to vaccination?
I don't believe children are allowed to attend school if they are not vaccinated unless there is a religious objection.  So is at risk then, children who are not vaccinated.  Who can go to school not vaccinated.  those with a religious objection.  who can potentially become sick.  those who are not vaccinated which should only be the ones with religious objections and those for whom the vaccine will not work.


The problem is that these measle carrying kids come into contact with children who have only gotten the first MMR (it requires a booster which means you aren't fully immune with only one shot),
I don't believe that to be true 

"Children should get two doses of MMR vaccine, starting with the first dose at 12 to 15 months of age, and the second dose at 4 through 6 years of age."

are you saying they aren't immune until, at the earliest, 4 years of age?
 
"How Well Does the MMR Vaccine Work?
One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.
Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps."

so I'll ask you for the 2nd time
"What's the remedy for people who refuse vaccines?  If someone refused then what?"
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
by your opinion there could never be a religious objection because I don't believe there is one single religion/church that treats all sins the same or equally.  
There are lots of religions that have different categories of violations that have various punishments.

In Christianity, homosexuality and adultery (marrying a divorcee) are in the same category.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
"What's the remedy for people who refuse vaccines?  If someone refused then what?"

I don't understand this question. The remedy for what? If you refuse to get vaccines, you're refusing the remedy to measles. If you're refusing to get vaccines, then certain states have laws that say you can't go to public schools, and nursery schools, private businesses now, can refuse your child because of an objection they base on religion (even though religious leaders of the three faiths have all said the vaccines do not violate the religious tenets).

Is that law religious discriminatory? Are the nursery schools, which routinely care for children under the age of 4, private businesses, unlawfully discriminating?

And the 93% effective rate is why there aren't more cases of measles, that's not 100%. As I also mention, often times you have to put kids into nurery school well before they can be vaccinated, well before the 12 month shot, which means you're counting on everyone ELSE in the school to have been vaccinated. If you have a six month old and need to go back to work, let's say.