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@WyseGui
Obviously if you aren't trying to understand me, you will get nothing from me.
How Did You Become An Atheist?
Posts
Total:
265
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@Mopac
No, dude. I genuinely tried. 100%. But I don't care enough to keep going back and forth like this. Arguing about about my intentions and your feelings. if you have valid reasoning offer it and I will reply with honest logic.
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@WyseGui
I don't know what your intentions are. What I can see is that you are acting in ignorance.
Unfortunately, you prefer to be haughty so you think I am simply insulting you. I am not. I want you to understand. I want you to be made well. I am on your side. I am not trying to destroy you or puff myself up.
However, it is true, and thus written, "God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud."
So if you don't believe I have anything to offer, you don't have to listen to me. I am not terribly interested in arguing fruitlessly.
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@Mopac
You just said I prefer to be haughty. That is you telling me my intentions. You also keep saying I don't want to know. Also telling me my intentions. You can't control the narrative in a debate.
Saying I prefer to be haughty is nonsensical. Again Im not even denying you claim. Im asking you to provide logic that isn't "because it is obvious". You won't. And your calling me haughty because I'm not accepting your illogical reasoning? Can you truly not see the irony and hypocrisy of this? This a literal example of ad hominem. It is a fallacy for a reason.
You have called me call me an idiot, crazy, a fool. Those are insults regardless of context. But I dont care about that. You have not made a logical argument yet. My argument was about the logical wall religious debate always end at. Your just proving me right.
There are so many religions. The Bible is as valid as the Quran in terms of accuracy. ` It seemed like religion was made up.
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@WyseGui
You know, if you practiced something as simple as turning the other cheek, I wouldn't have to waste my time sorting through your endless whining about how you think I'm a big meanie.
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@WyseGui
I don't need to demonstrate that The Truth exists.
This is clearly an unreasonable and backwards request.
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@Mopac
Big meanie lol. Okay guy.
No it isn't. That is how the burden of proof works.
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@WyseGui
The Truth is self evidently existent.
If you make it anything other than this, you are making the error of the scholastics.
You willing to entertain this? If you don't understand how this can be, make the attempt with me please.
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@Mopac
Saying something is self evident doesn't make it self evident. That is just an assertion. it is not reasoning. You want me to attempt to understand that "The Truth" is self evident but you have not offered any reason for anyone to reach this understanding. You only keep saying it should be obvious. Also not reasoning.
I am a boy. Anyone's who know me knows this is self evident. Not because I'm going around showing my junk to everyone. It is obvious by my looks, voice, and mannerisms. That is the internal reasoning that causes understanding that leads to self evidence. This is why, some philosophers believe nothing is self evident. But I digress.
You are asking people not to use their logic. In a debate. What other mechanism do I have to reach this understanding? What does, "make the attempt with me please" mean?
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@WyseGui
What is reason if The Truth doesn't exist?
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@WyseGui
Fyi in 2019 one cannot assume gender.
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@Mopac
You logic is so circular. I promise, you are the one not understanding. Not me. That doesn't make any sense.
Fyi in 2019 one cannot assume gender.
Yes i can
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@WyseGui
It means, "Let me troll you until you're as crazy as me"What does, "make the attempt with me please" mean?
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@Mopac
Yes, coming to a debate forum and asking others to demonstrate their claims is unreasonable and backwards. I guess that makes everyone here a troll and you're the reasonable one. Is this the Bizarro Universe?I don't need to demonstrate that The Truth exists.This is clearly an unreasonable and backwards request.
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@WyseGui
How do you prove that the truth exists to someone who doubts that the truth exists?
There is no reason without truth.
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@Goldtop
Either this is trolling or he is so firmly rooted in this doctrine that no amount of logic will matter.
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@WyseGui
You are quite mistaken in your belief that I don't want you to use logic or reasoning. I actually want you to find reason, and to abandon this logical fallacy of there being no truth.
There is nothing reasonable about saying, "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth."
You need a miracle to prove that there is truth?
This is not being reasonable. This is nihilism.
I like to give a fool a shot at being reasonable before I mostly ignore them for making pretense.
Nihilists don't deserve to be taken seriously, they are chaos worshipers. The only thing keeping them delusional is that they have no love of The Truth.
They have made this choice.
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@Mopac
Sir this is circular reasoning. It is a logical fallacy.
You are using the term truth loosely and playing off this ambiguity. Noticed how you didn't capitalize The Truth. Reasoning doesn't necessarily lead the truth. It leads to a truth.
Obviously truth exist. I am a boy. This is true. You are conflating truth( the state of being true) and God. I understand what you mean by The Truth. Ultimate Reality. But they are all referring to God. The state of being true is not God and has nothing to do with God.
You need to be clear with what is what. If "the truth" is God then I disagree. We can have reason without God. In fact we do
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@Mopac
There is nothing reasonable about saying, "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth."
I am not asking this, you are. I'm not a nihilist either. You don't control the narrative.
This is why I keep bringing up the fact that your are full of insults. Because it is ad hominem, a fallacy and proof of you lack of logic. People always resort to that when they have nothing productive to say.
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@WyseGui
You would have a lot easier of a time if you believed me instead of trying to fit what I am saying into what makes sense to you.
The Ultimate Reality.
Where is the room for doubt?
You don't know God.
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@WyseGui
Me calling you a fool is not an argument. It is an observation. No logical fallacy there.
And as long as you are interpreting "Ultlmate Reality" or "God" as your conception of what you think my conception of what that means is... you make yourself a fool.
Why? You undermine everything you say by doubting the existence of ultimate reality. If there is no Ultimate Reality, nothing you say can be true.
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@WyseGui
That's nothing, he'll soon start equating you to the worst kind of scum. Don't feed the troll.This is why I keep bringing up the fact that your are full of insults. Because it is ad hominem, a fallacy and proof of you lack of logic. People always resort to that when they have nothing productive to say.
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@Mopac
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
ad hominem:
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
You see how that describes exactly what you keep doing. My mind can not accept that your aren't trolling and you actually think this way. Your logic is so contradiction.
You are assuming that true understating of The Truth renders all arguments pointless sense The Truth is in fact already the nature of all things. The realest reality. The true essence of all things. The true reality i which we may or may not return to as it is
I am saying that is not necessarily true. This existence could be a by product of completely random events. Our entire universe could be a simulation of a super intelligent alien race, used to generate power through the creation of black holes. This universe could be a blip of existence on the finger nail of "God" that he never even noticed. This universe could absolutely be the only thing that ever is and ever was and ever will be in this existence and what ever one you can think of. Any of these could be true and would render Ultimate Reality completely moot.
Now I do not think that way. I chose to believe there is more for us after we die. I have no idea what that could ever possibly be. But I believe the answer are not found in any Bible, Koran, Hebrew Bible or any such thing. These things are all created by man. There are so many different scenarios. The point is, it is not apoptotic.
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@WyseGui
Ah, now you as are actually giving me something to work with instead of just whining and making ad hominem attacks(well doing both still, but whatever)
The Ultimate Reality is whatever it actually is. Not a single one of those scenarios you present refutes The Ultimate Reality. Assuming any one of these situations was true...
Existence is the product of "random" events.
Existence is a simulation of aliens.
The universe is a fingernail of God(what?)
This universe is all there is
Etc
Every single one of these possibilities, if any of them are true at all, they do not and can not "render the Ultimate reality moot".
And so, you have proven my point that you do not know what The Ultimate Reality means, because not only do you make what should be an obvioisly false claim that some unknown reality could undermine reality as it truly is, but you also make the assumption that when I speak of The Ultimate Reality, God, you think I am talking about an idea of what God is, or some explanation of what God is, or an understanding of what God is.
The Ultimate Reality. What it actually IS independent of any observer what so ever. That is God. The incomprehensible God.
And we Orthodox don't know what God is. Nobody does. The essence of God is unknowable. Think about it, The Ultimate Reality... any idea you have about what that is must be false, because ideas are created things.
So what we know is not so much what God is, but HOW God is. And that is another subject entirely, one that we are not getting into.
What is important is that The Ultimate Reality, what that TRULY ACTUALLY IS.... that is what God is. That is what God means.
And it necessarily exists.
And fyi, I am not assuming anything. I know what I am saying. And if you were truly agnostic, and not a "I don't know, so nobody can know, I know better" types masquerading as an agnostic, you would be open to that possibility. So say, "I don't know", and be open to the possibility that I know what I am talking about and not simply assuming.
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@Mopac
You made the assertion, you should have given me something to work with. Not the other way around.
So your answer is, no matter what comes next God or not, that is Ultimate Reality. Even if It has nothing to do with God, truth, cleaning the nous, the Bible which you keep quoting, the correct Christianity which you keep referring to, Jesus, even if there is absolutely no afterlife, nothing after the universe is destroyed, that is the Ultimate you refused to explain further?
How Exactly is this different from agnosticism? How is this not a noumenon? What is the point of any religion if you openly acknowledge the Ultimate Reality could be anything? The Ultimate Reality could be a God that loves murder. You talked about muddied nous and this and that. That all just seems pointless now and completely misleading because it really has nothing to do with Ultimate Reality because we still don't know what it is. It could literally be nothing.
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@WyseGui
Wroooong
God means The Ultimate Reality. That is what it means.
Look, you don't understand my faith. There is nothing shameful about admitting this. I can't really talk about it effectively unless we get this God issue down.
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@Mopac
No I dont understand it. You just told me:
Existence is the product of "random" events.Existence is a simulation of aliens.The universe is a fingernail of God(what?)This universe is all there isEtcEvery single one of these possibilities, if any of them are true at all, they do not and can not "render the Ultimate reality moot".
No I don't get it. I am using your logic here. You words. Now you are saying Ultimate Reality is a God? How is nothing after this universe a God? Do you not see how these 2 things are specifically contradictive? This is not an issue with my understanding. Something you are saying just doesn't make sense. Why cant you just admit that?
Look, you don't understand my faith. There is nothing shameful about admitting this. I can't really talk about it effectively unless we get this God issue down.So say, "I don't know", and be open to the possibility that I know what I am talking about and not simply assuming.
I have told you at least 3 times now that I wasn't even denying your claim, you just was not provided sound reasoning for me to accept it. Shall I re post that for you? Are you kidding me? This is again ad hominem. I have no problem admitting i don't know something. I'm here for knowledge, to learn and challenge my beliefs. So don't start that now.
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@WyseGui
The Ultimate Reality IS God. I have maintained this since the beginning.
That is what God means.
Don't blame me for you not unnderstanding. I am doing the best I know how to help you understand, and you don't. Believe me, and it will be easier. Do you think I am trying to trick you? I am trying to help you in the best way I know how. I am human. Show me some charity, please.
I am telling you that the reason you are struggling with this is because the conception of God in your head conflicts with this. You have a lot of preconceptions, superstitions, and baggage concerning God.
So wash it all away, because it is getting in the way.
The Ultimate Reality. Whatever that is. What it truly Is. That is God. That is what we mean.