Be skeptical of atheism.

Author: Fallaneze

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Mopac
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@Snoopy
I just want you to know that The Orthodox Church does not understand this description of faith in Hebrews to be a definition of faith, so much as a description of how faith works.



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@Snoopy
100% confidence is knowing, which is faith.  Faith is not synonymous with that level of confidence.
I am only 100% confident in logical tautologies.  Your religious beliefs are not tautological.

Your "faith" is not the same as my instrumental beliefs.
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@Mopac
I just want you to know that The Orthodox Church does not understand this description of faith in Hebrews to be a definition of faith, so much as a description of how faith works.

Yeah, I appreciate that.  I'm admittedly not very good at conveying the "inside out" of the faith, but this person likes rigorous definitions so I'm not sure how else to convey it through this medium.

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@3RU7AL
This is not a naked assertion, it is our faith. One you do not wish to understand because you have decided ahead of time that you despise Christ, and have nothing to do with Him.
Snoopy
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@3RU7AL
100% confidence is knowing, which is faith.  Faith is not synonymous with that level of confidence.
I am only 100% confident in logical tautologies.  Your religious beliefs are not tautological.

Your "faith" is not the same as my instrumental beliefs.

Your logical tautologies are something you have encompassing knowledge and complete control over.  This is consistent with what I've been saying to you.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.  You are ignoring your epistemological limits.
'Less you fancy yourself a god, I suppose you'll disregard your epistemological limits in order to act reasonably upon sound evidence.

3RU7AL
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@Mopac
I don't "despise christ" any more than you "despise santa claus" or "big foot".
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@3RU7AL
I'm asking you to convince me that there's a practical difference between "atheist" and "agnostic".
I'm not going near that as long as the word 'practical' is in there!

But in the meantime here's the story of the invention of the word 'agnostic' by TH Huxley around 1889.


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@Snoopy
One definition that I like is "something that is believed especially with strong conviction.", because strong conviction certainly can come from evidence, and the godless prefer to use the definition, "firm belief in something for which there is no proof.", which is actually a definition we would find offensive, because we have faith in what we know and witness.




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@3RU7AL
Yet if I insist you do not understand, you arrogantly persist in the delusion that you know better.


If you can not satisfy me that you have understanding, you certainly don't get it.


As I said, our faith is Truth worship through the purifying of the intellect. 

You don't know what you ask, because you make measurements without making sure your instruments are clean. That is our discipline. Making sure the tool we use to measure is clean.


3RU7AL
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@Mopac
Yet if I insist you do not understand, you arrogantly persist in the delusion that you know better.
If you want someone to believe you, you must first be able to explain what you are talking about.
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@3RU7AL
I speak lucidly, and you do not believe.


Christianity is Truth worship through the purifying of the intellect.

Snoopy
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@Mopac
One definition that I like is "something that is believed especially with strong conviction.", because strong conviction certainly can come from evidence, and the godless prefer to use the definition, "firm belief in something for which there is no proof.", which is actually a definition we would find offensive, because we have faith in what we know and witness.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people are misusing the word to be subversively offensive.  One must be fooled to think otherwise.  An aspect I find most appropriate from citing Hebrews is that faith is not expressed as a self-righteous conception of belief.
3RU7AL
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@Snoopy
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people are misusing the word to be subversively offensive.  One must be fooled to think otherwise.  An aspect I find most appropriate from citing Hebrews is that their faith is not a self-righteous conception of belief.
If you believe faith = confidence, then why not just say "confidence"?

Seriously.
Mopac
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@Snoopy
Faith in the west tends to be taken as simply believing something. But just as James said "Faith without works is dead", so is simply intellectually assenting to something without action to us not really faith. Faith is not simply belief to The Orthodox Church. It can be said that faith and works are united in faithfulness. 


And sure enough, every one of the examples of faith in this scripture was more than simply believing with the mind. Faith is with the feet as we say!
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@3RU7AL
I always find it baffling that those with modern sensibilities and aversions always demand that historical use of language be changed to conform with their newspeak.


This is part of why what we teach becomes harder and harder to understand. Language is being perverted in such a way as to create a disconnect between the present and the past.


Something is always lost.

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@Mopac
Look, you can't complain about people misunderstanding you if you refuse to explain yourself.
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@3RU7AL
I have always been very thorough at explaining myself when the opportunity arises. 

And when I see that my explanations are to no effect because the person I am speaking to refuses to be taught, I revert to speaking simply and plainly until the person I am talking to decides to take the subject matter seriously as well as my expertise.

Snoopy
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@3RU7AL
You happened to contend some sort of conflation with confidence on my part and I supplied a distinction that utilized confidence.  I would say you can have a confident attitude independent of faith.
3RU7AL
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@Snoopy
I would say you can have a confident attitude independent of faith.
Ok,

Just to be clear, when someone says "you have faith in science" they are not using the word "faith" in the same way that religious people use it.

When a religious person says "I have faith that Jesus will usher me to heaven when I die" this is not the same as someone saying "I have faith that the cathode will collect hydrogen bubbles and the anode will collect oxygen bubbles".

One is a verifiable, evidence-based belief (Quanta) and the other is pure imagination (Qualia).
3RU7AL
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@Mopac
I have always been very thorough at explaining myself when the opportunity arises. 
You simply claim "special knowledge".  This is not an explanation.
keithprosser
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@Mopac
This is part of why what we teach becomes harder and harder to understand. Language is being perverted in such a way as to create a disconnect between the present and the past.
Heere bigynneth the Knyghtes Tale

      Whilom, as olde stories tellen us,
Ther was a duc that highte Theseus;
Of Atthenes he was lord and governour,
And in his tyme swich a conquerour,
5 That gretter was ther noon under the sonne.
Ful many a riche contree hadde he wonne,
What with his wysdom and his chivalrie;
He conquered al the regne of Femenye,
That whilom was ycleped Scithia,
10 And weddede the queene Ypolita,
And broghte hir hoom with hym in his contree,
With muchel glorie and greet solempnytee,
And eek hir yonge suster Emelye.

(Chaucer-Cantebury Tales)

Language moves on... getteth thee o'er it.


Snoopy
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@3RU7AL

Ok,

Just to be clear, when someone says "you have faith in science" they are not using the word "faith" in the same way that religious people use it.

When a religious person says "I have faith that Jesus will usher me to heaven when I die" this is not the same as someone saying "I have faith that the cathode will collect hydrogen bubbles and the anode will collect oxygen bubbles".

One is a verifiable, evidence-based belief and the other is pure imagination. 
I assume when you say faith in science you are essentially referring to the idea that without having yet done so, you will be able to duplicate the scientific methodology, and you are going to take a leap of faith in order to test the theory.  Just because you are imagining a cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles and an anode collecting oxygen bubbles doesn't make the faith itself distinguishable from faith in anything else.  Obviously you are referring to different topics, but faith should be used in the same way as a matter of faith.  If you're to draw a situational distinction it would seem appropriate to use adjectives as Mopac does when they deny "blind faith".
3RU7AL
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@Snoopy
I assume you mean by faith in science you are essentially referring to the idea that without having done so, you will be able to duplicate the scientific methodology, and you are going to take a leap of faith in order to test the theory.  Just because you are imagining a cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles and an anode collecting oxygen bubbles doesn't make the faith itself distinguishable from faith in anything else.
They are not the same.

One has perfectly logical explanations of how electricity can split oxygen from hydrogen.  It is part of a coherent theory of chemistry.

There is ample evidence from multiple sources and can be explained without an in-person demonstration.

The other very important point is that science, based on inductive reasoning, has very specific limitations.

These limitations mitigate the confidence of the results.  This confidence is Quantifiable.  It's called "Sigma" and it NEVER REACHES 100%.

Now, if I read in some old book that I could turn lead into gold with some unicorn tears and a squirt of dragon blood, and I went around teaching this to people because I 100% believed it, that would be much more similar to a religious belief.

The other point I'd like to make is that the cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles IS TESTABLE (FALSIFIABLE).

The tenents of religion taken "by faith" are NOT TESTABLE (UNFALSIFIABLE).
Snoopy
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@3RU7AL
These limitations mitigate the confidence of the results.  This confidence is Quantifiable.  It's called "Sigma" and it NEVER REACHES 100%.
Approaching this with an open mind, that sounds like glorified statistics.  That is not how I understand science.


I assume you mean by faith in science you are essentially referring to the idea that without having done so, you will be able to duplicate the scientific methodology, and you are going to take a leap of faith in order to test the theory.  Just because you are imagining a cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles and an anode collecting oxygen bubbles doesn't make the faith itself distinguishable from faith in anything else.
They are not the same.

One has perfectly logical explanations of how electricity can split oxygen from hydrogen.  It is part of a coherent theory of chemistry.

There is ample evidence from multiple sources and can be explained without an in-person demonstration.

The other very important point is that science, based on inductive reasoning, has very specific limitations.

These limitations mitigate the confidence of the results.  This confidence is Quantifiable.  It's called "Sigma" and it NEVER REACHES 100%.

Now, if I read in some old book that I could turn lead into gold with some unicorn tears and a squirt of dragon blood, and I went around teaching this to people because I 100% believed it, that would be much more similar to a religious belief.

The other point I'd like to make is that the cathode collecting hydrogen bubbles IS TESTABLE (FALSIFIABLE).

The tenents of religion taken "by faith" are NOT TESTABLE (UNFALSIFIABLE).

  I don't observe that you've drawn a distinction between faith and faith.


Mopac
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@3RU7AL
You are unwilling to go through the process to see things for yourself.


But by all means, continue to believe what you read in books and make pretense of being scientific. Maybe use fancy Greek words that you don't really know the meaning of.


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@keithprosser
Language changing does not magically re-write the meanings of what was written in the past.


No trick of language can define God out of existence. This type of relativism is a cultural illness, and will lead to the destruction of your society. It will be deserved.


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@Mopac
There are no new vices and every sin that worries you so much has been happening since the beginning.    There is just less hypocrisy now.
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@keithprosser
I see an awful lot of calling what is bad good. 

And I don't know if hypocrisy is truly on the decline.

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@Mopac
If we focus on homosexuality is there a rational reason to consider it bad, or 'evil'? 

It is a fact that animals (and we are animals) do not have an instinct (or drive/urge?) to reproduce or to 'preserve the species'.   What we have is an urge to copulate and to orgasm.   I doubt many species know that they do sex to make babies... they just feel a need to screw.

Obviously for efficiency critters evolve over time to usually favour screwing between sexes, but individuals do turn up that are more attracted to their own sex.  

I see no reason why such individuals should be vilified or punished.


   

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@Mopac
No trick of language can define god into existence.