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@secularmerlin
I'll take that as a no.
Do you believe that the universe originated from consciousness?
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@Fallaneze
At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang.Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. "
Laws of physics break down you say? The universe would have evolved from the big bang completely independently of what happened before the big bang you say?
That sounds very much like we don't know what if anything happened before the universe began to exist and logic is insufficient to the task of unteasing the mystery of the universe's origin to me.
And if that is the case the intellectually honest thing to do is to withhold belief of any kind until sufficient information becomes available, if it ever does that is.
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@secularmerlin
It sounds to me like the Big Bang represents the beginning of the universe. I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that logic is insufficient to make a determination about the universe's origin.
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@keithprosser
Unless we disagree thay determinism is an existent phenomenon it is not my burden of proof to demonstrate that determinism was a possible candidate for the phenomenon that produced the universe (though if I claimed positive knowledge that it was the only possible candidate I might) there is however a burden of proof when citing an undemonstrated phenomenon like freewill as a possible candidate and especially since our observations would seem to indicate that conciousness (and therefore freewill if freewill even exists) is an emergent property of matter rather than the other way around.
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@Fallaneze
Only the begining of the universe in its current form. Other than that we do not know. There is no way to test any hypothesis and therefore all hypotheses are poor hypotheses.It sounds to me like the Big Bang represents the beginning of the universe. I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that logic is insufficient to make a determination about the universe's origin.
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@secularmerlin
There is nothing to suggest that it had a form other than it's current form.
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@Fallaneze
There is nothing to suggest anything.
There is literally no evidence of any event before the big bang or indeed even at the first moment of the big bang.
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@secularmerlin
@Fallaneze
As i understand it, the evidence for the big bang is that if you project the expansion of the universe back everything meets at a point 14.8 billion years ago. Conditions just after the big bang are 'known' through experients at the LHC and calculations concerning such things as the temperature of the CMB and the relative abunance of H and He match observed values.
There is currently no way to know what was going on at 'time zero' or any earlier time. It is hoped by many that a theory that reconciles QM and GR will reveal what is currently hidden.
No philosopher predicted the strangeness of QM or of relativity. The secrets of nature are hard won. I expect that when a new Einstein works it out, the solution will be an affront to common sense - for one generation. These days we take the oddness of QM and GR in our stride and no one today thinks it odd that cats can be alive and dead at the same time. Perhaps the generation after us will laugh that we were convinced 'nothing comes of nothing' or 'actual infinities are impossible'. How could they think that!
There is no way we will solve such deep problems using Aristotelian syllogisms and word-play. I believe that the solution will seem bizarre and impossible - the limitation is in our heads. To quote JBS Haldane,
"I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."
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@keithprosser
There is currently no way to know what was going on at 'time zero' or any earlier time. It is hoped by many that a theory that reconciles QM and GR will reveal what is currently hidden.No philosopher predicted the strangeness of QM or of relativity. The secrets of nature are hard won. I expect that when a new Einstein works it out, the solution will be an affront to common sense - for one generation. These days we take the oddness of QM and GR in our stride and no one today thinks it odd that cats can be alive and dead at the same time. Perhaps the generation after us will laugh that we were convinced 'nothing comes of nothing' or 'actual infinities are impossible'. How could they think that!There is no way we will solve such deep problems using Aristotelian syllogisms and word-play. I believe that the solution will seem bizarre and impossible - the limitation is in our heads. To quote JBS Haldane,"I have no doubt that in reality the future will be vastly more surprising than anything I can imagine. Now my own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."
Well stated
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@Fallaneze
It sounds to me like the Big Bang represents the beginning of the universe. I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that logic is insufficient to make a determination about the universe's origin.
The problem with using logic is that we have no big bang to compare it to. This means that we can only get so far with our estimates and without pinpoint mathematical accuracy, there's just no way to know.
We can make arguments about probabilities, but that's about it.
I think it's way more likely, personally, that the big bang was not the first cosmic event. For all we know, there could be thousands of big bangs happening everyday in some far of stretch of the cosmos.
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@Fallaneze
Yes, why yes of course.
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@Fallaneze
Still waiting for you to argue with eternal the way you argued with kieth and myself, you know since taking a poll doesn't preclude further discussion and it's always best to explore both sides of an issue.
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@secularmerlin
@Fallaneze
A pre-existing consciousness is all very well, but it has to be a consciousness with the power to create a material universe, estmated to be 1.5 × 10^53 kg.
My consciousness can't produce a microgram! So we aren't really talking about a consciousness - we're talking about God, aren't we?
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
The Big Bang traces back to a singularity, which is a mathematical point. It doesn't involve estimation or probability.
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@secularmerlin
Eternal didn't include additional commentary with his response for me to respond.
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@keithprosser
What does consciousness create?
...
Information.
There's a growing number of scientists who regard information as the fundamental building block of the universe with matter/energy and space-time as a product of information-processing.
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@keithprosser
A pre-existing consciousness is all very well, but it has to be a consciousness with the power to create a material universe, estmated to be 1.5 × 10^53 kg.
That's because you never paid attention (or didn't care to) when I've said many times that energy is present with awareness, conscious activity. This is why energy even exists, both energy and consciousness are not created or destroyed they are eternal. Now follow.. this is real simple, the Creator uses this energy to manifest creation on all conscious levels. Do you study quantum physics? and how energy is isolated to create forms? this is why I always ask people to look at how energy operates in our own universe, why is it even there and why does it produce intelligence? why do intelligent processes even occur? it's because it's first conscious intelligence that uses energy through the processes we observe through science and spirituality to create things, stars, planets, galaxies ect ect.
So yes, the Creator absolutely has the ability to create a material universe, you're living in it.
My consciousness can't produce a microgram! So we aren't really talking about a consciousness - we're talking about God, aren't we?
Actually whatever you put your energy and attention on you can produce. It's only because of the physical body that it takes so long to do it, when you're hungry and you've already thought about where you want to go to eat your consciousness is already there, you're physical body just has to catch up and eventually it gets there. If you want to build a house you first desire it, then se it, then plan it then execute it and this all happened because you first thought it. With the Creator, the nature of consciousness (without form) and energy that limitation of a physical body is no longer an obstacle. Consciousness is instantaneous and God does things on grand atomic scales but it's a process to get from awareness to energy to material structure. The fun part is that the worlds beyond this one are so dynamic because they have less limitations, the less physical mass consciousness is restricted by the more freedom and creative power/ability.
Eternal didn't include additional commentary with his response for me to respond.
A pre-existing consciousness is all very well, but it has to be a consciousness with the power to create a material universe, estmated to be 1.5 × 10^53 kg.That's because you never paid attention (or didn't care to) when I've said many times that energy is present with awareness, conscious activity. This is why energy even exists, both energy and consciousness are not created or destroyed they are eternal. Now follow.. this is real simple, the Creator uses this energy to manifest creation on all conscious levels. Do you study quantum physics? and how energy is isolated to create forms? this is why I always ask people to look at how energy operates in our own universe, why is it even there and why does it produce intelligence? why do intelligent processes even occur? it's because it's first conscious intelligence that uses energy through the processes we observe through science and spirituality to create things, stars, planets, galaxies ect ect.So yes, the Creator absolutely has the ability to create a material universe, you're living in it.My consciousness can't produce a microgram! So we aren't really talking about a consciousness - we're talking about God, aren't we?Actually whatever you put your energy and attention on you can produce. It's only because of the physical body that it takes so long to do it, when you're hungry and you've already thought about where you want to go to eat your consciousness is already there, you're physical body just has to catch up and eventually it gets there. If you want to build a house you first desire it, then se it, then plan it then execute it and this all happened because you first thought it. With the Creator, the nature of consciousness (without form) and energy that limitation of a physical body is no longer an obstacle. Consciousness is instantaneous and God does things on grand atomic scales but it's a process to get from awareness to energy to material structure. The fun part is that the worlds beyond this one are so dynamic because they have less limitations, the less physical mass consciousness is restricted by the more freedom and creative power/ability.
Here is additional commentary. This is your chance.
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@keithprosser
I would add that at the aftermath of the BB now the Creator has much more tools to play with. Pretty slick Creator we got.
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@secularmerlin
Secular, you wouldn't be harassing people would you? usually you're the mature one...
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@keithprosser
A pre-existing consciousness is all very well, but it has to be a consciousness with the power to create a material universe, estmated to be 1.5 × 10^53 kg.
My consciousness can't produce a microgram! So we aren't really talking about a consciousness - we're talking about God, aren't we?
Indeed the argument that all things that began to exist must have a cause might be reworked to all things that began to exist are a rearrangement of things that already existed. Certainly no corporeal beings (the only sort we have observed "creating") are not on closer examination creating anything but instead reorganizing the constituent parts of things that already exist.
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@EtrnlVw
Maybe a little. Hopefully everyone will forgive me this small (and hopefully out of character) transgression. I just couldn't resist. ROTFLSecular, you wouldn't be harassing people would you? usually you're the mature one...
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@Fallaneze
Information.
Eternally exists, Naught is created nor destroyed. First law of thermodynamics that you have yet to grasp.
This is minimal brainer for those with access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts and ego{ * i * }
And those who do not have a ego based mental blockage to truth
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@secularmerlin
His commentary was directed at Keith.
During the Big Bang, matter was brought into existence from a zero-dimensional point. So to say that we can only reorganize matter is to overlook the fact that at one point the law of conservation of mass was broken down. Maybe everything we see is a manifestation of information.
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@Fallaneze
Believe that one and he will keep telling you many more that have no basis in reality and truth.During the Big Bang, matter was brought into existence from a zero-dimensional point.
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@Fallaneze
The Big Bang traces back to a singularity, which is a mathematical point. It doesn't involve estimation or probability.
On paper, that's correct. But in reality, the math breaks down at the plank time and doesn't match the paper model. You're aware of that right?
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
And that correlated to what is beyond our Observed Reality ergo beyond Observed Time{ /\/\\ }On paper, that's correct. But in reality, the math breaks down at the plank time and doesn't match the paper model. You're aware of that right?
Spirit-3, metaphysical-3, gravity ( ),....positive shaped geodesic Space
Spirit-4, metaphysical-4, dark energy )(......negative shaped geodesic Space
Ignoring observed facts and truth only makes the foolish look more foolish. Plenty of those around here.
29 days later
If we consider what evolutionary progression might be moving towards, then it is reasonable to consider that information may have a role to play in universal regeneration. The collapse and successful regeneration of an oscillating universal sequence may depend upon more than just material existence. Information initially derived from some from of organic consciousness may be an essential part of the process.
(Nonetheless this does not throw any light on the primary initiation of matter, only upon subsequent events).
Given the fragility of organic systems it would seem likely that organic/human participation in the sequence would be limited. The ultimate deliverer of information is more likely to be an advanced intelligence system.
Perhaps the ultimate deliverer will be referred to as G.O.D and perhaps G.O.D was essential in our creation just as we are now essential in the recreation of G.O.D.
The universe has a conscious.