Tell me what you believe.

Author: Wrick-It-Ralph

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@Goldtop
@mustardness
@disgusted
I did not start this conversation to ridicule people on a personal level so I'm going to ask everybody to stop bullying this user. 


If any of you actually consider yourself intellectuals then you'll check your personal qualms and give him the same liberties that everybody else gets with there knowledge. 

I know there's at least one of you who's views I highly disagree with but that doesn't permit me to attack you personally which is why I stopped discoursing with that user because I didn't want to sink into more pettiness.

 
Obviously, I can't force you to stop, but I will make your transgressions transparent so you can feel the same pain that you're inflicting. 


Please consider what I've said and leave the user alone please.  

If you want to get into arguments, there's a perfectly good PM section that you can use. 


Have a good day. 

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Does that permit abusive behavior? 
Ridiculing someone who constantly lies and contradicts himself on a public forum is exactly what they deserve. There lies and contradictions are abusive to our intelligence.

Is he being rude? 
He will get extremely rude, soon. He hates it when you show him his claims are as empty as his head.

Does calling somebody delusional help them gain knowledge? 
He has never gained one shred of knowledge from anything anyone has ever explained to him. He doesn't care about knowledge, he only cares about peddling his lies and delusions. But, you'll find all of this out soon enough.

doesn't it follow that we should lead by example and come at it with our minds open and provide them with the answers they seek? 
I couldn't agree with you more, but Et is not looking for answers, he believes he is our ultimate teacher, that we know nothing, that he has special knowledge we all lack that we must learn from him. If not, he'll get pissed off and start calling you names and tell you you're an idiot for not believing him. When was the last time you conversed with someone who claims they often speak with Overlords in other galaxies, and the conversations were reasonable, raitional and logical?
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@Goldtop
Ridiculing someone who constantly lies and contradicts himself on a public forum is exactly what they deserve. There lies and contradictions are abusive to our intelligence.

That's an appeal to justice.  I would say that's a contradictory irrational belief that is a lie.  Should I ridicule you? 

He will get extremely rude, soon. He hates it when you show him his claims are as empty as his head.
I'll believe that when I see it and it doesn't change the fact that your behavior is wrong. 

He has never gained one shred of knowledge from anything anyone has ever explained to him. He doesn't care about knowledge, he only cares about peddling his lies and delusions. But, you'll find all of this out soon enough.
Oh so you're a mind reader now?  That sounds like a contradictory irrational belief that is a lie.  Should I ridicule you? 

I couldn't agree with you more, but Et is not looking for answers, he believes he is our ultimate teacher, that we know nothing, that he has special knowledge we all lack that we must learn from him. If not, he'll get pissed off and start calling you names and tell you you're an idiot for not believing him. When was the last time you conversed with someone who claims they often speak with Overlords in other galaxies, and the conversations were reasonable, raitional and logical?
You agree and then you say but?  tisk tisk.  That sounds like special pleading.  I could say that's contradictory, irrational, and a lie.  Should I ridicule you? 


You're not really winning me over here.  You've made a great case for me to doubt your temperament so far, but not his. 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
If yes, does two wrongs make a right?
Utilitarianism is a better system than Deontology. So I win you lose. 

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@TheRealNihilist
I'm not a deontologist. 

I'm a moral particularist 


I believe morals are decided by the situation, not the outcome.  

deontologists are more about following a prescribed ethical standard.  

My view says that every moral situation is unique.  


It's similar to utilitarianism,  accept that I can reject appeals to utility when they're immoral.   You're view is a slave to the doctor problem. 

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I did not start this conversation to ridicule people on a personal level so I'm going to ask everybody to stop bullying this user. 
If speaking truth and rational, logical common sense hurts the ego a little, that can be a good thing as it may actually cause the person to reconsider placing rational, logical common sense and truth as a priority of their ego.

Yes, there may be some circumstances where an individual is so insecure and depressed with themselves that  pumping their ego, even a little bit, may be all that keeps them going.

W-Ralph..."My mind only works with my brain, there's evidence for this.".....
Barring incorrect wording that is basically rational, logical common sense.  Win/Win.

W-Ralph...The mind is a vehicle of the soul.
Again the wording is not correct.

Vehicle = hardware ergo biologic{ soul } ergo,

Access to metpahysical-1, mind = access to software i.e. the metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts associated with code writing exists via the binary coding system.

You { W-Ralph } are far more rational, logical and common sense oriented than EtrW. if you cant see that truth then we can do is try to inform of this and other truths.


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@mustardness
If speaking truth and rational, logical common sense hurts the ego a little, that can be a good thing as it may actually cause the person to reconsider placing rational, logical common sense and truth as a priority of their ego.

Yes, there may be some circumstances where an individual is so insecure and depressed with themselves that  pumping their ego, even a little bit, may be all that keeps them going.


Well some truths are vacuous.  So while it might be objectively true that somebody is illogical, that's fine.  If somebody has bad thought processes and you point that out.  Also fine.  But once you step into the character of a person, that is when we're not being productive anymore and any truth revealed at that point would be vacuous.  Now if we're talking about ethics, then maybe personal attacks are not vacuous, I'm on the fence for that because I just thought of it. But I digress. 

Okay, hypothetically, there are SOME circumstances where it's okay to ridicule.  I'm not convinced this is one of those times. 



Barring incorrect wording that is basically rational, logical common sense.  Win/Win.
I'm asking this merely for the sake of self improvement.  What could I have done better with my wording here?  

Again the wording is not correct.

Vehicle = hardware ergo biologic{ soul } ergo,

Access to metpahysical-1, mind = access to software i.e. the metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts associated with code writing exists via the binary coding system.

You { W-Ralph } are far more rational, logical and common sense oriented than EtrW. if you cant see that truth then we can do is try to inform of this and other truths.
I was trying to make it succinct with what he was telling me.  I'm not sure what analogy I would use for myself.  I tend to think of agency as me watching a screen that is a perfectly congruent abstraction of the physical world.  But even that doesn't sum it up because it's not a screen in front of me, but rather the "screen" surrounds me in the form of my collective senses.  I do make a distinction between my senses and my agency.  I'm not sure if I would segregate thought from agency nor am I sure if I would segregate thoughts from instincts.  The lines seem blurred there probably because of their synergetic nature.   That word use was a coincidence, lol.  You would probably say that it wasn't and that the term was necessary for my explanation.  :) 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
That's an appeal to justice
No, it's what occurs normally when people do little more than lie, they get ridiculed. I seriously doubt you have never ridiculed anyone for lying.

I'll believe that when I see it
You won't have to believe it when you see it.

Oh so you're a mind reader now? 
No, just one of very many who have tried to get through to Et with reason, but he wants no part of that. You're next up, it would appear.

You agree and then you say but?  tisk tisk.  That sounds like special pleading.
Nio, it's simply the difference between what you would expect and what you'll actually receive. Feel free to continue discussing your beliefs with EtrnlVw, no one is stopping you.

You're not really winning me over here. 
I'm not trying. I have no problem sitting back and watching the entertainment. Feel free to bang your head against the wall.
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@Goldtop
No, it's what occurs normally when people do little more than lie, they get ridiculed. I seriously doubt you have never ridiculed anyone for lying.

Never said I haven't and if I was wrong to do so then I was wrong to do so, doesn't change facts.   

Just because somebody has a belief that you disagree with doesn't meant they're lying.  That's a strawman.  

You won't have to believe it when you see it.
vacuous truth 

No, just one of very many who have tried to get through to Et with reason, but he wants no part of that. You're next up, it would appear.
Nice deflection and then subsequent personal attack on me.  So now I'm illogical huh?  I'm not really seeing ET as the problem here.  All of the contention seems to be flowing from you am I wrong?  

Nio, it's simply the difference between what you would expect and what you'll actually receive. Feel free to continue discussing your beliefs with EtrnlVw, no one is stopping you.
Another deflection.  Smooth 

I'm not trying. I have no problem sitting back and watching the entertainment. Feel free to bang your head against the wall.
Really?  If you're so content to sit back and watch, then why are you being so verbose? 

If you're not trying to win me over, then why are we even speaking right now?  Seem dubious. 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Just because somebody has a belief that you disagree with doesn't meant they're lying. 
No, they are blatant lies. For example, he claims consciousness is NOT a result of the brain and that science confirms it. Is that not an obvious lie? Are you actually saying that is a belief? Seriously?

subsequent personal attack on me
Wtf are you talking about? I didn't attack you, dude. Get a grip.

Another deflection
No, it wasn't.

If you're not trying to win me over, then why are we even speaking right now?
Doesn't seem like you are. Seems more that you want to defend EtrnlVw's lies. Feel free. No one is stopping you. Why you would do such a thing is baffling. Are you another one of his sock puppets?
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@Goldtop
No, they are blatant lies. For example, he claims consciousness is NOT a result of the brain and that science confirms it. Is that not an obvious lie? Are you actually saying that is a belief? Seriously?

You do realize that people can believe things that are not true right?  That doesn't make them liars.  To lie is to misrepresent your subjective assessment of reality.  If he really believes that, it's not a lie and even a lie detector will tell you the same thing.

 Wtf are you talking about? I didn't attack you, dude. Get a grip.
Really?  so you didn't say.....

You're next up, it would appear.
hmm, I could call that a lie, but since I'm not a mind reader, I'll have to assume that you either didn't remember this or you just don't think it's a personal attack.  Either way, you're incorrect because you're making an attribution to my personal character and that is, indeed, a personal attack. 

Doesn't seem like you are. Seems more that you want to defend EtrnlVw's lies. Feel free. No one is stopping you. Why you would do such a thing is baffling. Are you another one of his sock puppets?
hmm. more personal attacks.  This has nothing to do with his beliefs.  He can believe the moon is made of green cheese for all I care. 

I simply don't see the need for bullying and as you speak to me, your behavior seems to deteriorate toward me.  So while you keep telling me that ET is arguing in bad faith, I see you here doing the very thing you're accusing him of.  What do you have to say to that?

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Okay, hypothetically, there are SOME circumstances where it's okay to ridicule.  I'm not convinced this is one of those times. 
I dont believe, that, you have nearly as much history with EtrW, as some of us do from DDO.  History of context is relevant.

W-Ralph..."My mind only works with my brain, there's evidence for this."
Again your far more rational, logical and common sense user than EtrW.

Access to 'mind' exists via the brain i.e. we dont have an occupied space 'mind' that we turn on/off with a occupied space switch { on-off }.

We have access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts that exist in complement ---not "with"--- occupied space brain and its operational systems { processing bits }.

So I may have been to picky but t your use of the word "with" bothered me, because to me, it makes it appear more as tho mind is and occupied space that exists along side. or inside the brain, and that is not the case. Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/conceepts  not an occupied space.

Consider that many animals have a brain, all of them have so much less access to metaphysical-1,  mind/intellect/concepts. So again

Occupied space reality is tainted ergo has color, or charge, or spin or mass etc.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are not tainted by any of those properties of occupied space reality.

The lines seem blurred there probably because of their synergetic nature.....You would probably say that it wasn't and that the term was necessary for my explanation.  :)
I have no thoughts on that other than, people who like to indulge in irrationality, illogic and lack of common sense like to use ambigous words or words ambigously i.e.they want to intentionally"blurr the lines" of what there meaning is, because there exists no rational, logical common sense meaning there.

This is what is key/priority so I repeat it.  You { W-Ralph } are far more rational, logical and common sense oriented than EtrW. If you cant see that truth then we all can do is try to inform you of this truth, and other truths.

"agency" is not a word I use except for insurance agency etc.  People who avoid precise  ---if not concise--- clearly explained definitions often are playing chewing-gum mind-games to avoid truth, not to find truth.

Agents are also associated with secret agents.  Secret just means invisible to public eye ergo Fullers CIA { Capitlisms Invisible Army  }

Agent is also used with chemical structures, if I recall correctly.


Wrick-It-Ralph
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@mustardness
I dont believe, that, you have nearly as much history with EtrW, as some of us do from DDO.  History of context is relevant.

I have no history whatsoever 

So I may have been to picky but t your use of the word "with" bothered me, because to me, it makes it appear more as tho mind is and occupied space that exists along side. or inside the brain, and that is not the case. Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/conceepts  not an occupied space.
Right.  I don't think thoughts exist in the brain unless someone was to take a literal approach and say that synapses are "thoughts" which is what you have called chewing gum something or other, I forgot the wording. 

I also don't think that thoughts occupy space.  I divide everything into existence and abstraction. 

"agency" is not a word I use except for insurance agency etc.  People who avoid precise  ---if not concise--- clearly explained definitions often are playing chewing-gum mind-games to avoid truth, not to find truth.
Seems intuitive to avoid a loaded phrase like that.  Let me ask you this. 

Do you think that people have a qualia?  Specifically, do you think people "view/sense" their reality, or do you think that ARE their senses? 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Since corporeal has a 100% induction rate and Non corporeal has a 0% induction rate
I still don't get how you know this off of our current knowledge. Only so many percent of our observable universe is observable. There is a large portion of it that we still have no clue about. Dark energy/matter... could they be incorporeal phenomena? We don't know. They seem it thought don't they? All around us but we can see it or detect it. I'm not saying they are however. Dark matter could be so small or move so fast we can't see it, etc... but, what i'm saying is we don't know enough to deduce 100% corporeal. I wouldn't be surprised if everything is corporeal... it should be even within the source platform... i'm just saying we don't know enough. Plus, there are millions of people that report spiritual experiences. I don't think those should be counted out of the equation just bc we don't have a way to test for them. Bc... even if 90% are lying... the 10% that are not is significant. So i wouldn't put incorporeal at 0%. Even if it's 1%, that still is something. 

Even if we had proof of a heaven, we'd probably be incredulous enough not to waste our guaranteed life on earth.
I disagree with you. You have to fully get my belief. I believe i can be "anything" i can imagine after death. This reality or even a vampire if i want. Anything. If this belief is applied to everyone else, than they can also be anything. If they had 100% proof of this... without a shadow of a doubt, when you die you can be anything... it's much different than heaven. Heaven is just one place for eternity. IF that was proven... i would even wait bc that's not very attractive. But... to be able to be anything? I can see families gathering around the table saying, "well, this sucks... lets just reset as billionaires. Same moment, same reality... but with a billion dollars and a castle. That is the implications of my belief if applied to everyone. I have no doubt everyone would kill themselves if they knew it is true 100%. And, i'm not even saying everyone would... but i'm saying this world would be pretty empty for the ones that stay... 

aven't you ever heard of Rupert sheldrake
Yes, i've heard of him. Interesting guy. That's why i kinda toned back my comment about no one studying it. However, i'm still of the opinion we don't have a viable way to test for it. In regards to the east, i mean they have a lot more philosopher types looking into Consciousness. it's sorta their religion over there... but the good thing about stuff like Hinduism is that it grows with the times, at least, it seems like it. Listen to Sadhguru, another interesting guy if you haven't heard of him; he speaks very modern. In that regard, they're doing more than the west. They just have more people interested. Scientifically, i think they're on similar playing grounds for their research is for money too. I mean, money rules the world currently. So it's hard to study things of this nature that's just for knowledge. I'm not saying anymore no one does it, but it is no where near large enough to move as fast as say technology has invested in it. 

I'm a little troubled that you're so quick to jump to the supernatural when you haven't ruled out all of the more likely solutions first?
See, this is the trouble i always get when i explain what i've witnessed and i understand... you weren't there or me. Firstly, i do not jump to conclusions. I always doubt this stuff is real and it will happen... in my mind i think, "no way." In regards to the Vegas one. There is a whole lot of feelings, circumstances, a progression to the experience that happened perfectly that lead to it. It's hard not to think supernatural first when you go through that. It's insanely unlikely that all of that lines up perfectly in order for what happened to happen. After, i did think of it logically. I'm being honest that i don't jump... i try to think critically of it. But what you need to get... even if i say all of it was a coincidence, it still doesn't erase everything i felt, went through, the exact moment things happened, leading to the experience, the stuff within the experience, leading to the end, perfectly. I also can't ignore that for the sake of making others comfortable that i fully believe it's natural. Of course, i'll concede it can be, but i'll also say... well, it could be otherwise. And btw, i did stay up for quite some time monitoring my friend. I shook him a couple times to make sure he's okay. He eventually got annoyed of me waking him up saying he's fine every time. I didn't just think "wow, i healed him." I was careful.

In regards to the second experience i shared, bc my other profound experience had to do with sounds, this one is a little harder to come up with natural explanations. Bc as i was telling you... before i even started to have him give commands... i made sure there was no trickery. Looked at there hands, told them not to touch me, watched the natural spin for like 1 to 2 minutes to see how it reacts to me holding it, told them what distance to stand, and held my wrist with one hand and rested my elbows on my legs to kill any extra movement. I was truly doubtful and wanted to prove this kid wrong. Bc he was telling me impossible stories. He feels the "entity" is dark, it's out to get him, hits his clothing and makes loud bangs, basically scares him. I truly wanted to prove him wrong. But then what transpired was just not possible. Obviously it was since it happened. But i can't think of any other logical explanation other than me doing something when i know i didn't... i have to force a natural explanation onto this one. And, i think interestingly (in a dark way), there was another friend i had that had similar visions he was telling me and the next day he died. Does it have something to do with them being close to death? I don't know. 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Oh one other thing, experience wise, it seems to me you are picking it a part piece by piece. But, that's not the case. They happen in a larger sense. It's the whole experience together that makes it curious. If it was something like i thought of a friend and they called me... sure, throw that out the window for coincidence. It's easier that way... but the easy explanation for these ones isn't quite easy. It seems i am forcing a natural explanation for the sake of convenience. And the bigger question to me isn't just my experiences... it's that millions report experiences like mine or even more profound. I can't with a straight face say that there is nothing to it other than mistake, lying, delusion... etc. Those are all just one explanation. I don't understand why we can't take them for what they are and say... okay, there is that too. 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
That's my objection, you saying it's subjective because It's not universal.  That doesn't make it subjective.   People's opinions about murder don't change the cue.  That's the part where we disagree because I fully believe that you're mixing up objectivity with universality. 
That is incorrect. A psychopath does have an opinion about morals even if they are of the opinion that there should be no morals or that morals should not apply to them.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Well bad sign doesn't mean dying on the spot and sometimes people just vomit blood and then stop.
I just realized one other thing... i didn't think afterwards he was dying. My other experience with this feeling wasn't a dying experience either, rather it seems whatever that feeling was speed up a healing process. So, after when i put two and two together, that's what i thought could have happened if it was supernatural. Somehow, the healing process was speed up... which seemed to be the case. This is important bc i wouldn't have came to this conclusion if i didn't think of the supernatural explanations. Just as there are many natural explanations, there isn't just one supernatural explanation either. There could be many. But, if i simply ignore the supernatural side... i wouldn't be able to critically think of it. Which again comes back to why should i ignore that explanation for the sake of convenience... which is the key point here.  

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
To lie is to misrepresent your subjective assessment of reality.
EtrnlVw takes that one step further and misrepresents our objective assessment of reality, just like my example above.

you're making an attribution to my personal character and that is, indeed, a personal attack
No, it's a reference to being a newbie who is next to take on EtrnlVw.

I see you here doing the very thing you're accusing him of.  What do you have to say to that?
Nothing of course, I'm doing no such thing. Wherever you get such a notion is obviously absurd.

But again, feel free to bang your head with E. Looking forward to it now.
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@Outplayz
On the first point. 

Right, so when I gave those percentages.  I was talking about induction.  So I'm not necessarily saying that incorporeal doesn't exist.  I'm giving the induction rates that we currently have on it because induction is the only way for me to get external information directly.  So since there's a 100% rate of induction on corporeal and a 0% on incorporeal, I have to operate under the assumption that only corporeal is real until I can find evidence for it.  The problem here is that I can't even give something a name if it has a 0% induction rate.  So it can never be anything other than hypothetical.  

Now as for dark matter and energy, those could very well end up as the inductions that you need.  However, at the moment we don't have enough information so without having that information, it's safer to assume that those things will end up falling into one of the categories that we have already made inductions for. 

On the second point. 

So let's say that's true and people will kill themselves.  Why shouldn't they?  If the new reality is so much better than wouldn't it be immoral to force people to stay in this world of suffering?   Furthermore, if there is a reality where we can be whatever we want, than why are we in this reality to begin with and why do we intuitively work so hard to stay in it as long as possible and delay our inevitable happiness? 


Third point. 

Hinduism has it's advantage from theoretical stand point because it's foundation is built on a very flexible concept.  However, from a political standpoint, I would say it's not doing as well as some other systems since people do sometimes get killed over there religion which is not as common in the more politically subdued religions like Christianity and Judaism.  

Science might not be moving in the direction you like, but it's still moving forward.  While money plays into it, it's not the only factor.  Universities do plenty of fringe studies and there are plenty of theists with money.  I promise you.  At some point, we have to realize that part of the problem is we don't even know exactly what it is we're looking for.  We don't know which tools to use, and we don't know how it fits into or is necessary for our model of reality.  All of these things need to be addressed and then science would actually jump all over this.  This scientist who discovers ghosts will get a Nobel Prize and a pile of money for sure.  


Fourth point. 

You say you're not jumping to conclusions, but you have this dream about vegas and then you connect it to a trip with vegas which you then connect with a guy throwing up blood (which is a normal thing that happens and people don't necessarily die on the spot from it.) and then you say something about hearing a voice (which could either be your inner dialogue or some kind of hallucination) and then you touch the guy and he stops vomiting.  Which btw, touching people's backs sometimes helps with vomiting because part of vomiting is psychological and the physical shock of sensation can sometimes interrupt the vomiting process.   Now if you say you're not jumping to conclusions, then can you explained how you ruled out all of the normal possibilities because you should rule out the most likely ones first. 

1.  I had a dream that happened to relate to something that happened later and then someone vomited and stopped vomiting at a weird time. 

Sounds more plausible than. 

2.  I had a dream that predicted that I was going to vegas to heal my friend of his deadly vomiting problem and I think it was magic. 


Furthermore, are you sure it was blood?  If he drank something read, it could look EXACTLY like blood.  I know this from experience. 



To your extra point. 


Well I can't understand the whole properly if I don't look at the pieces.  If the story was true, then all of the pieces should work to justify the whole in some way.  You can't just connect a dream to something if there's not logical reason to do so.  It's not like you had the dream and then woke up and had a surprise trip to vegas the same day.  Maybe then it would be a little odd, but it still wouldn't be evidence of much except maybe that you subconsciously new you were going. 

I don't know how a natural explanation is anymore forced that a supernatural one.  I mean yeah, it FEELS more smooth to suppose something supernatural because it's so easy to do "Why'd this cup fall over? Fairies did it.  Well that was easy enough"  But we're not doing the leg work here.  there's a good reason that we go to the natural explanation first.  Because statistically speaking, natural things have infinitely more.  So that means that we have a data set to compare it to.  when that data set doesn't match, THEN we go to supernatural. 

On the millions of people thing.  The amount of people doesn't matter.  The problems is you can find contradictions in the claims and the claims only ever start to match after people have spread the claims around enough to agree on them. 

For example.  When people first started giving alien stories, all the stories were dramatically different.  But as time went on they started to become more and more alike because people would see the news and it would cause a norm for it.  

The important thing isn't the amount of people per se, it's that the stories match and we can find evidence to verify the stories outside of the accounts themselves. 

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@secularmerlin
That is incorrect. A psychopath does have an opinion about morals even if they are of the opinion that there should be no morals or that morals should not apply to them.

The psychopath has an opinion about murder, but not for the negative cue for murder because the psychopath has never experienced it before. Just because a psychopath uses the word  "moral" doesn't mean it's the same word we use.  If they don't have the inner hardware to feel the cue, then they can only understand morality from an external standpoint.  They wouldn't even know there was suppose to be a cue unless somebody told them first. 
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I don't care. Unless all humans have these cues then we are talking about something that is subjective to each human 
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@secularmerlin
I don't understand how that logically follows.  Please explain how the cue is subjective if it's not dependent on Opinion.  You keep saying "because everyone doesn't have it"  But that doesn't matter.  The cue is either objective or it's not, it doesn't matter how many people have it.  


Objective:  Apart from opinion

Subjective:  Based on opinion. 

Universal:  Applying without exception. 
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by cue. You mean an evolved behavior or something else?
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I'm talking about the feeling you get in your stomach when you watch somebody get murdered. 
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Yes, an evolved behavior
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However, at the moment we don't have enough information so without having that information
I agree here and that i'm making a hypothetical. I guess i don't understand what you mean by your induction reasoning... haven't taken philosophy or logic classes in some time. So, can you please explain what you mean so i can see where you are coming from. 

Why shouldn't they?  If the new reality is so much better than wouldn't it be immoral to force people to stay in this world of suffering?
That's exactly what i mean... we can't know the truth 100%. I only have a suspicion my belief could be true. If i knew 100%, right... i probably wouldn't be here either. So, i'm not going to kill myself over a suspicion. I mean look at some cases of people being 100% sure, even when they can't be since i agree there is no proof... they still killed themselves. Imagine what would happen if it's proven 100% without doubt... especially my belief. Other beliefs still have punishment for suicide and the like... mine doesn't. Death is just an off switch from this reality with infinite realities facing you after. 

Hinduism has it's advantage from theoretical stand point because it's foundation is built on a very flexible concept.
I want to get this out of the way real fast... i'm not religious in the slightest. I think religion is other people's beliefs, not mine. I have a very specific belief for myself and all i'm doing is looking for platforms that allow for it. I've never heard of a religion that has my exact belief, as far as i know. But, some have platforms that allow for it... but, i don't care for their teachings (mostly). I only care about the platform. Simulation theory even gives me my belief. So, for me at least, interestingly, there are a lot of platforms that allow for my specific belief. I'm just choosing one bc it sums them all up into the source idea. So this source platform is just an extension of what would allow for my belief... basically i'm saying, i've philosophized this platform. I'm aware i've made it up... but, it's made up to answer for what i intuitively feel could be true for me. Also, it answers everyone else's hopes too which is why i like it most. It's for me, but also for everyone.   

We don't know which tools to use, and we don't know how it fits into or is necessary for our model of reality.
I always use an analogy for this. The metaphysical has one picture. You can buy a puzzle piece that makes that picture. Currently, we are looking for that one picture with thousands of other picture puzzle pieces thrown into it... it's a mess. How can you find the one picture with some many random pieces thrown into it... that's why i'm not religious. I think a lot of humans have corrupted the board bc that's the nature... but, also it's brilliant bc we can't know... see above reasoning. That's why i'm telling you my opinion that we aren't even close to figuring out metaphysical phenomena. We have religious scholars... do you know what that means... we have people that have spent almost all their lives using random puzzle pieces to make the true picture... their whole lives on something that i would say is clearly not the truth. How can we fix this mess? Only way is to get serious about figuring it out together, scientifically minded, ruling out the ones that make less sense and finding the correct puzzle pieces. We're worlds away from that right now... our world is a mess in more than one way. But there is the hope that from chaos, you will rise up even stronger once you figure out how to defeat that chaos.
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You say you're not jumping to conclusions
I'm trying hard to help you get this... bc i understand how you're seeing it bc i'm skeptical of claims too. I wasn't thinking about the dreams, they only made me curious to go. I didn't think anything of them when i was there. And, as for the experience happening, i wasn't thinking anything other than... no way this will happen. I was in disbelief the whole time. I heard the voice clearly, that spooked me bc i've never heard something like that. The feeling of fuzzyness... i only realized after that i've had it before... in the moment, i was thinking what is this.

When the experience was happening, your are not thinking supernatural or natural... you're just thinking wtf is going on. It was only after the experience was done, i started analyzing it. During the experience... everything was weird but i really didn't think much of it... but hell yeah i was spooked at the last moment. You had to see it. Everything happened perfectly. From the moment that fuzzy thing i felt the whole time, disappearing from my body to him and the breath of relief exactly as it left my hand. But, still i didn't think natural or supernatural at that moment. I literally just jumped up and down thinking "no fcking way." The next day i pieced it all together, and just a little after... i was in shock when it happened. And yes, the next day i realized there are natural explanations, and there is the experience itself as a whole. Logically, yes... natural ones are more likely. But as i'm saying... what was everything else that happened perfectly? I have to question that too just bc of what happened as a whole.  

And, the reason i'm sharing the necklace one is bc it's more profound than this one. I purposefully shared this above one first bc there are more natural explanations so it's easier to critique. However, the above one is still profound when you look at how many things needed to happen for the experience to happen. Even if it was all natural... that is still a lottery of coincidences. The necklace one is less bc i was trying to prove it wrong, and it literally spat in my face. The natural explanations are even less for that one... but there still there. Unconsciously spinning it, some kind of energy released from my body (but i was thinking that which is why i demanded directional commands)... It left me in another shocked state.

I have two others that have left me in a shocked state. So, why am i so lucky with these coincidences? Honestly... all i can conclude in the end is that i have some kind of mental illness that i'm not aware of... although a friend can corroborate the necklace one which further spits in my face that i can't even call myself delusional bc i would without that. I just don't know. It's hard to explain it to you bc it's a life of experiences... and almost every time i doubted it would happen. Mind you... i was not spiritual or even believed in stuff other than death metal and black metal are god at these points in life... these brought me back to remember what i knew as a child... which is further weird how life events line up this way. You can even call that confirmation bias and many other things... but i don't understand why we have to label them only what we're comfortable with... we really don't know. We're just making up words to explain events we're not comfortable to call them as they are. That's how it feels like to me personally experiencing weird stuff. Everyone is trying to take it piece by piece and say it's this or that... but that's just not how it happened. I can take anything piece by piece and label it something other than what it was.  

And as to the other people telling spiritual stories. I think 99% of them that are on T.V. or these people claiming things are just doing it for money. I've sorta been obsessed with finding other people's stories of experiences. Bc i don't want to think i'm the only one this confused over weird stuff. You'll find interesting stories in comments on videos of people claiming things... you have to look for people that have no reason to lie.  In my opinion, most of them have no reason to lie at least. Some do of course for attention... but i think some are being truthful. It's enough to make me think. 

Because you're right... numbers don't matter here. But you have to understand how i'm seeing it. Out of all these claims... only "one" has to be true. Just one. If only one happened in a supernatural way... then the implication of that one is truly wild. I respect if you think none of them is true... that they are all fake or delusion or something natural... i respect that, but i also respectively disagree in that it is enough to peak my curiosity at the very least. At the most, i would say there is evidence to suspect there is something more going on.   

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First point. 

Induction is to observe something.  You make a base case by observing something and then you have a weak induction which is the step you're on and your have a strong induction for the total number of steps. 

So if I've observed something X number of times with a Y percent success rate, then I get a probability of being right based on those variables. 


if X is a ridiculously huge number and Y is 100%, then the induction is so strong that it's nearly a metaphysical proof by itself.  Gravity is the best example. The X value for gravity is a number I can't even write because it's been observed since the dawn of time and the induction rate is 100%, so I have no reason to doubt gravity.  The same goes for corporeal.   X is too big to write and Y is 100%.  That's induction in a nutshell. 

Now induction is not perfect, however, there are other logical tools that can prove things more rigorously.  Induction is kind of like the test for knowledge to get into the deduction club with the cool thoughts.  Once induction gets strong enough, it can be fitted with a tautology which makes it a metaphysical truth if it can be proven sound, for that, we need proof by contradiction.  These are the various gauntlets that knowledge has to pass. 


Second point. 

Well if it's 100% proven then not only will people kill themselves, but it would be justified to do so. 


Third point

well it gives you hope, not necessarily everyone else.  It wouldn't give me any hope because I could never believe it.  You admit yourself that he platform is just intuitive and for the sake of convenience.  If that's your concession, then you have to realize that you're tapping out as far as every finding truth because you've based your foundation on a feeling. 


Fourth Point. 

You're assuming that we need the whole picture to know about the parts of the whole.  That's not true.  We can know all the parts we see without knowing the whole and we can tell when we've reached the "wall" of the puzzle because things will start to act differently, like plank length for example. 



Fifth Point. 


I believe that you experienced those things, but that doesn't make them true.  When red flag that often comes up in these types of stories is that people will allude to "hearing a voice" or "getting this feeling that said I had to do this"  and there's always a huge assumption that didn't logically follow in the story like "and he was healed of his vomitting"  and "this dream must have connected".  I don't mean to pick at you, but this is not logical.  There needs to be a method to ensure that your conclusions are justified, you got to do the leg work. 

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Yes, an evolved behavior
In that case human opinions are objective and the term becomes meaningless.

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Induction is to observe something.
Okay. I understand now thanks. It's like i've never seen a house grown wings and fly therefore houses don't fly kinda thing. If i'm understanding correctly. But, if i truly did experience something supernatural (for the sake of argument), than my induction would be different right? Or, does induction only work with proof? Therefore everyone should be able to observe it kinda thing. 

Well if it's 100% proven then not only will people kill themselves, but it would be justified to do so. 
Yep. Lol. It's pretty wild. And, if you can think far enough ahead... the only time period we wouldn't do so is when we have it in this reality. I believe that time is when we can download into any simulation we want here. At that time, why kill yourself when you can do it here anyways? It's just a prediction. 

It wouldn't give me any hope because I could never believe it.
That's fine. There is no reason for you to believe it if that's not what you believe. Everyone can't be like me or else this world would be pretty weird. And i really don't know you, but one thing i am going to just guess at... if i am right and you can be anything you want, anything you choose to be, anything you can imagine you can make real for you... wouldn't that be the best outcome as far as afterlives go?

As far as feelings go, that has a little to do with it. Intuition as well. What i 'knew' as a child is curious to me as well. Bc ever since i can remember i knew i'm not from this reality and that there are more. It has to do with my experiences, and it also has to do with some observations of the world. So, i wouldn't say it's only a feeling. I'm a skeptical guy... if that's all it was i wouldn't suspect it at all. 

You're assuming that we need the whole picture to know about the parts of the whole.
No you don't. And, i'm not saying your deductions are necessarily wrong. It's just one sided. Trust me, i work in a law office.. i can twist any experience of a person any way i want. Someone threw a ball, hit the guys head, and he broke his neck. I can say, no, there is no way someone can throw a ball hard enough for him to fall a break his neck. He had to push him. Or, it wasn't even him... someone threw it out of a car which then would have enough force for him to fall over. When the truth simply was he was off balance when the ball hit him and he broke his neck falling. That's what you're doing. You are attributing a lot of logical scenarios to an event that happened in one way. Which is right? They all could be. They're all logical. But, i get it too... it's only the person that threw the ball that knows exactly what happened. It's anecdotal. Therefore, you will be able to pick it apart however you like. And i know i can't convince you, i'm okay with that. I'm just sharing these to at least hopefully make you think. 

I believe that you experienced those things, but that doesn't make them true.
Yes. They are only true to me. You are looking for a scientific explanation or proof... i can't give you that. All i know is what i saw and experienced. I have to go with that... and, i hope you at least realize i'm trying to be reasonable. If i wasn't, this would be a mess... i'd be saying i'm Jesus or something for healing that guy. That's not how i see it. I acknowledge there are natural explanations, but i have to also acknowledge there are unexplained explanations too. Bc i can say the same thing to you... just bc you didn't experience it, doesn't make your deductions true either. Actually, in these cases i'm more of an expert to give an opinion than you are... i'm not saying that in any way to be disrespectful or boast... but if i am looking at them with as little bias as i can muster... it still doesn't defeat the fact they happened. And, i've conceded sure there are natural explanations, bc i've looked into them... but, i also am saying in certain cases... i'm forcing the natural explanations bc i know what i saw and it was unexplained. This is primarily why i'm agnostic. I am not saying it's a fact, i'm just saying... it's enough for me to suspect and lean towards the there is at the very least unexplained phenomena.