not just a bad person problem - a gun problem

Author: n8nrgmi

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#121
Snoopy
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@n8nrgmi
You are saying something that makes sense, "simple fights turn deadly quick"

Then you say something that doesn't make sense "too many things correlate with gun ownership, like homicides".  If ownership is associated with some form of defense, naturally its going to be associated with homicide.

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#122
n8nrgmi
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@Snoopy
firearm ownership is correlated with murder. read the damn link, and educate yourself 
#123
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@n8nrgmi
firearm ownership is correlated with murder. read the damn link, and educate yourself 
Sir, I just covered this, so I can't help but feel you aren't reading what I've stated.  You aren't exposing me to anything new.  I'm further educated than I would like to be on this matter. 

Also, your link isn't very good.
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#124
n8nrgmi
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@Snoopy
if you think you know so much, why can't you answer the question in the opening post? why are gun murders wildly out of whack in the usa, but not non gun murders? 
#125
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@n8nrgmi
I find statistical conversations on firearms distasteful partly because I perceive them as political fluff on a subject that people care about a great deal. 
The issues are more complex than any singular statistic, and there's also cultural variance.  
#126
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@n8nrgmi
Britain banned guns and saw increases in crime
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#127
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@Snoopy
it's one thing if the stats are too ambiguous to tell anything, but here the stats are overwhelming in what they indicate. if you don't look to stats, you continue calling this a mental health problem, or a hate problem, when both of those arguments are contradicted by stats. you continue pointing to chicago or whatever pet city that has a murder problem and lots of background checks, despite the fact that most areas with background checks have fewer mass shootings and murders. i probably debunked half the gun lobby talking points in a paragraph, yet you won't even entertain the science. it's anti intellectual and stupid to ignore this stuff. 
#128
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@n8nrgmi
I read studies, and have provided some in the past, but I am not going to say that your article on the mantras of "gun science" and the "scientific consensus" is a quality resource.  You have something clouding your judgement, as I'm not apologetic in general to poltitical rhetoric.  The fear-laced insecure "right wingers" bother me as much or more than the fluffy democrats distracting from their corruption and ghetto problems.  The alternate universe where there is no 2nd amendment and we are under immediate threat of a gun ban is useless.  Sure, there are some liabilities right now, but for productive conversation on what the government can and should do to mitigate the harmful effects of social strife its not anti-intellectual to ignore it since we still have property rights in the US. 
#129
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@n8nrgmi
One thing you can do to relate with normal people is not approaching guns as a scientific health issue.  I don't mean to ignore scientific research, but the ultimate effect of allowing yourself to dehumanize the people and turn them into numbers.  Also, you can simply acknowledge that gun control has rapidly diminishing returns so that people understand you aren't one of the idiots who will parrot more burdensome laws on top of one another to the point that the representatives are using a scape goat and abusing the powers of state to harass decent people. 


#130
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No one talks about getting rid of cars after DUI's, no one talks about getting rid of cars after people ram citizens, or airplanes into buildings, or guns after drive bys. Seems guns are fine till a mass shooting then they become bad. If a person strangles another why don't we cut off their hands? 
#131
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@n8nrgmi
A worse culture would result in more shootings, why doesn't that make sense?
#132
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@Mharman
That's awfully honest for a Right-Winger to say. 
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#133
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@Mharman
it is probably mainly a cultural problem. but it's also a gun problem. we know this because non gun homicides are not wildly out of proportion compared to the rest of the world, while gun homicides are. if this was just a cultural or evil problem, non gun murders would be wildly out of whack too. and because where there are lots of guns, there's more murder, police shootings, and police getting shot, more women getting murdered, and a lot of other things. we have four percent of the world's population, yet we have half the world's guns. that sort of dynamic is begging for excessive murder. 
#134
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@n8nrgmi
If you ban guns, people would get them illegally and commit mass shootings against people who can't defend themselves.  Besides, guns provide protection against a potentially tyrannical government.
#135
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I would suggest loosening the already-strict gun laws in places like California and Illinois, not making them stricter and throwing in "more comprehensive background checks" and more "gun control".

Whether you ban guns or not, determined bad guys will still find a way to obtain easy access to guns, so it's only fair that good guys also have easy access to guns too, so that they can defend themselves and their families.

Here are some videos by Colion Noir where he supports letting people defend themselves with guns.


Here is one video, from 2016, by the NRA explaining the value of having something like an AR-15 to protect yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OhBBC_Cyeo

It was also reuploaded here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cg0lE5kZrQ
#136
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@Christen
so it's only fair that good guys also have easy access to guns too, so that they can defend themselves and their families.
Just like all of the victims of mass shootings have defended themselves, oh wait.


#137
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@n8nrgmi
We see that because guns are the weapon of choice for anyone looking to use them. If we ban guns, then we'll see a slightly smaller amount of gun homicides, but an increase in knife homicides and overall homicides. This is exactly what happened in London.

#138
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@disgusted
The could've defended themselves if they had a gun.
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#139
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@Mharman
you say people just choose to use guns, so non gun homicides don't increase too. but that's far fetched. if people are just bad people, we should see non gun homicides go wildly out of proportion too. that's the most logical expectation. but that's not happening. neither is there greater crime rates outside of gun murder. 

you say people just kill with knives or alternative weopons if they dont have a gun. but that's illogical. places that have more guns have more murder, and less guns equals less murder. if people just killed with alternative means, there would be no correlation with guns and murder. even beyond science, what you say lacks common sense. think of any altercation.... if you have a gun involved there is obviously a greater liklihood of someone getting murdered, than compared to no gun involved. 
#140
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@n8nrgmi
you say people just choose to use guns, so non gun homicides don't increase too. but that's far fetched. if people are just bad people, we should see non gun homicides go wildly out of proportion too. that's the most logical expectation. but that's not happening. neither is there greater crime rates outside of gun murder. 

Let me walk you through this:

Bad people choose guns as their primary means of killing. That is why non-gun homicides are lower than gun homicides. If people chose knives, you would see a spike in knife homicides and lower rates in every other weapon.

You say that we should see all weapon homicides out of proportion, but proportion itself is in comparison to other weapons; if all weapons were out of proportion, they would all be in proportion.

.you say people just kill with knives or alternative weopons if they dont have a gun. but that's illogical. places that have more guns have more murder, and less guns equals less murder. if people just killed with alternative means, there would be no correlation with guns and murder. even beyond science, what you say lacks common sense 

you say more guns = equals more murder,.but that is not the case. Like i said, in London, overall murder went up when guns were banned.


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#141
n8nrgmi
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@Mharman

the consensus in science is that where more people have guns, there is more murder. i sited the studies and literature reviews many times around this site. this is more than just here is a city, there is a city.... it's a consensus and you can conclude the same thing with a review of scientific literature. 

on the gun v non gun homicides. this is more than just there's more gun murders v non gun murders. the key is that if you compare these things to other countries, the non gun murders are in proportion to the other countries, but the gun murders are not, and wildly out of proportion. it is logically possible that there is some sort of coincidence or random phenomenon where non gun murders are not also wildly out of proportion.... but if this is an issue of people just being bad, non gun murders should be out of whack too. that's what should be expected, based on basic logic. but it isn't happening. 
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#142
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with that said, banning guns isn't right as it could leave the innocent unarmed against criminals. i recognize that. 
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#143
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and to be sure, gun murders should be even more wildly out of proportion compared to other countries just based on people choosing guns. but non gun murders should be to a lesser extent but still wildly out of proportion too. 
#144
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@Mharman
But your argument is that banning guns would prevent them defending themselves, an obvious lie since none of the mass shooting victims have defended themselves with the guns now available.
#145
Mharman
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@disgusted
That because these mass shootings generally happen in gun free zones...

#146
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@disgusted
In such event, people have put up a fight with the means they had at hand, including firearms.  In any case, don't be a statistic.

#147
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@Mharman
Your excuses just become more pathetic.
#148
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@Snoopy
See post #148.
#149
Mharman
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@disgusted
You're not even going to give a counter-argument?
#150
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@Mharman
A counter argument to pathetic excuses, you're havin' a lend.