Actually, we can’t afford not to build the Wall

Yeah don’t argue with me.

My stubborn “facts” and “Reality” make it hard for petulant cretins to spew the misleading and intellectually bankrupt talking points.

Let me walk you through the problems. There are two of them.

The first is that Trump doesn’t seem to interested in building anything much better than the fence - so while you may argue to me that someone is going to build a big fabulous wall - that’s horseshit. Trump is building a fence so that people like you can feel like he fixed the problem.

And note, this is exactly why I have no respect for this sort of dishonesty. You know he’s not going to build the wall, I know he it, he knows it - yet you are still somehow pretending this is what is being proposed. It’s intellectually dishonesty solely for the purpose of making you feel more comfortable with your own doublethink.

How many of the 13,000 families that crossed the border, climbed over, burrowed under, or cut through the “wall”?

Want to Hazard an educated guess?

If the answer is close 13,000: then your education is remarkably poor. And in all likelihood you pulled the number out of your bury as it’s what you want to believe.

The border wall isn’t on the border. Immigrants can wade over the rio grande, and are on American soil. They then, legally claim asylum, and as they are families, can’t be easily deported back to their point of origin.

Im sorry this harms the narrative you want to believe: but the Crisis is a refugee crisis, not a criminal crisis or a “taking our jobs” crisis - a wall has no impact on that due to the above.

why else would they do a 180 on the border security issue?  The videos can be seen and heard with their own words, until Trump was elected and they saw an untapped voter base.

What a fantastic joke..it's a refugee crisis....

Talk about dishonesty.

The DOJ's best estimates say 15% of all court cases are legitimate refugees... and that's just the ones that turn themselves in to the border patrol...

that means 85% of people ARE NOT FKN REFUGEES.... the number is obviously higher than that because of the massive amount of invaders that do NOT report themselves to the authorities for a court date.

Let that sink in...the VAST MAJORITY of invaders are not LEGAL REFUGEES!

He said some of it has been built and no one has disagreed.......so I'm not sure that is true.

there are already existing fences etc, someone(s) thought it would help minimize the problem to a certain extent, I mean Crazy Diane and Cryin Chuck thought physical barriers were needed not so long ago.

he has said some of it has been built, do you have evidence that isn't true?

sure if there's no physical barrier to hinder them they can do that, but why would they unless that area doesn't have a barrier and it's easier to do so. 

Ever go to the movies, or a busy bank?  they have those velvet rope things, they aren't meant to stop you, but corral you or steer you where they want you to go.  Walls and fences can work like that as well, not so much about stopping, but crowd control.

I don't think anyone believes a wall is the end all be all to the problem, it's an onion for sure.

Oh and mind you..the 85% that get their court deportation orders NEVER show up to court. It's a fantastic joke perpetuated by open border faggots.

Huge reforms have been long, long overdue, mandatory nationwide e-verify, not here legally, no tax money programs, prosecute employers etc, save a ton of money on border security then, no incentive to come in illegally if you can't scam the system and get tax payer money to send back home.

Don't ever let these open border scum lie about how it's a refugee crisis. Hold their lying faces to the fire.

there's plenty of examples how they are organized, forming groups knowing the patrols can't catch everyone, or turning themselves in knowing how the system is bogged down, ineffective etc and they will be released into the heart of the country to disappear if they wish.  This is no longer random people fleeing persecution etc, this is an organized money making scheme.  These people willfully put themselves in a position to be used, taken advantage of etc as they know, if done correctly in the end they will be set.  Look at like an investment, 4k to a smuggler for free shelter,food, education, work under the table, support family in the home country etc, it's a scam on the tax payers.

Literally everyone who is not a fawning sycophant has disagreed. The wall hasn’t been built, nor is being built - it’s mostly just fencing of a similar nature to the type your ridiculing.

Of course feel free to show me where the wall has actually been built. I would show you the evidence of the non existent border wall, but it’s kinda hard to show a picture of something that doesn’t exist, or show you every square meter of the US Mexico border to show that every square meter lacks a wall.

If Trump has built more than the twenty meters of prototypes, he’d be parading in front of it every spare minute, tweeting photos of it all the time: and it should be trivial for you to show me a picture. So go ahead.

This is why we ridicule you for being willfully ignorant.

Trump isn’t building the wall, the fence he’s building clearly isn’t solving the problem he claimed it would.

Your response is that Democrats approved building the fence that got built and you now claim isn’t even working.

its not an answer to what I said, and is barely even coherent - it’s an irrational dodge. An attempt to say SOMETHING, ANYTHING, without having to concede either that what Trump is building doesn’t work, and he isn’t bothering to build what you say will fox the problem.

No, I literally explained it. There is a physical barrier - but it’s not on the border (the border is on the rio grande), so people can just cross the border onto American Soil, then wait to be picked up on the other side of the fence by border patrol to claim asylum. Much easier than risking death crossing the desert.

This is your problem, you support someone with an overly simplistic solution to solve your problems: but neither of you grasp the details or the complexity of the problem your trying to solve.

Illegal immigration isn’t like world war Z where your hiding from a hoard of unintelligent zombies who want to destroy you, yet if you pay close attention, this is effectively how the wall is subtly portrayed both by Trump and his supporters.

It's actually risen to about 10k for coyote fees since Trump.

Whatever Trump is doing is really affecting Coyote pricing, whether it's making it harder for Coyotes to traffick invaders, or encouraging more illegal invaders to make attempts to make a run for the border instead of turning themselves in at checkpoints.

Every policy supported by open border faggots would logically cause Coyote fees to fall.

Also, this is how you can spot an open border sycophant.

1) Never admits that Trump is securing the border in any way.

2) Never admits a single problem to the nation from having an open border, or ineffective border.

3) Never admits that the border patrol is not getting the tools they demand to secure the border from an ineffective, fat, bureaucratic Congress.

it is your claim that it's not being built, still waiting for the evidence.

show me a link where he ever said a wall/fence was all that was needed

no, my response was what is in place they found inadequate, until now.

go back and reread you'll find that statement as funny as I do, if you bothered to read my last sentence you even quoted, do you no understand what it means?

here I'll post it again just in case

you see an onion has many layers, you peel them and there's still many more layers, this is an analogy used to describe complex things since you must go through many layers to get to the center, sometimes call heart of the issue,problem, whatever.  Anything else I can help you out with?

Um this just proves we do have the money to build the wall, take all the money being used to pay for illegal aliens which is taxation without representation anyway and use it to build the wall.

exactly, I don't believe the b.s. that they are a net benefit to the economy and have seen plenty of examples where that is not true, including having translators for schools, tax payer funded entitlements, medical care etc.  The wall is but one of many things needed, I say wall (as does Trump) but it's a generic term for an effective barrier. 

Conservatives don't take Trump literally, but they do take him seriously.

Wingnut Leftists don't take Trump seriously, but they sure as hell take him literally.

Wall/fence/barrier...who cares? As long as there is more progress than rhetoric...and we all know know what 30 years of rhetoric has built so far along the border...that's not a very high bar for Trump to outperform.

Can we address one topic at a time? I simply don't have the time to address 40 points across two different threads. I also don't feel like we're getting anywhere, because we disagree on fundamental things. I'd be happy to address all the points you've made eventually, but it's like a tangent-a-thon at the moment lol.

Yeah.... what you’re doing is called “being intellectually dishonest”. We both know it’s impossible to provide evidence to show there is no wall being built. I mean - what would that even look like? Video of the entire border showing no wall?

No: if you claim Trump is building a wall - show it. Show one of his tweets showing his big beautiful wall, show him standing in front of his big concrete structure bragging about it.

The notion that you now are not posting a link to show that Trumps big beautiful wall is being built, after you’ve spent the last 5 pages posting link after link that support your position - should be evidence enough that we both know there is no actual wall.

That you’re hurling link after link - except for this one particular claim, and instead demand that I prove that your president isn’t carrying out his main campaign promise - should tell EVERYONE that you are keenly and specifically aware of how wrong you are.

This is called deflection. When you are aware how bad your position is, and how vacuous your claims are, you start trying to paint others as bad to make your side look better. 

Even then, like sooo many other aspects of your position, it is based on equal parts oversimplification, misrepresentation and general mischaracterization.

I get that you’re disinterested in reality, as it is well known that reality has a liberal bias, but at this point it seems like you’re really just spewing talking points, with no actually attempt to validate whether the nuance and details of anything you’re saying is true.

Okay, stop right there. Just stop. I don’t know who you’re trying to kid at this point; but it sure as shit isn’t me, and it appears that you’re primarily trying to convince yourself.

For a second, go back and read what I said and try - no matter how hard that is - to actually read it honestly, and try not deliberately try and be dishonest, or deflect away from the issue.


The wall has been billed as the primary solution to the problem. Supporters weren’t encouraged to chant “advocate for drug legalization to erode the support of criminal gangs in South America, and build a wall”.

Trump didn’t shut down the government over the inability for congress to pass legislation that helps support stabilization and democratic control of South American countries, in order to stabilize those countries.

Trump didn’t go on TV and say there is a crisis on the southern border that necessitates taking drastic action in order to eliminate the gang warfare, food insecurity and issues of violence in the primary countries that is driving the current uptick of immigration based on families.

If you don’t feel the rhetoric used, that the wall will stop Mexican rapists and drug dealers, the continual drum beat that a wall is needed and necessary to prevent illegal immigration was implying that the wall will provide a massive reduction and  substantial improvement of illegal immigration on the southern border - then you must be on crack.

I am not saying that the wall fall short of being a solution.


I am saying, that the wall can’t solve the problem to any meaningful degree because of all the facts you’re ignoring.

The wall will be built back from the border.  Immigrants can still cross into the US and legally claim asylum on US territory with or without wall.

The crisis you claimed was a crisis is occurring despite there being a “wall” already, and despite few of the individuals that entered actually crossing the wall.

This is not even touching the issues of tunnels, that drugs go through points of entry. 


It’s like you’re being willfully ignorant and deliberately dishonest, by simply ignoring the sheer extent of the issues with the wall, the sheer volume of scenarios that such a wall or fence will have little if any realistic effect.

I mean this is the whole point - that the fence at El Paso is experiencing a major spike in illegal immigration despite their being a physical barrier already.

What you’re doing is ignoring all of the issues, and instead trying to call democratic senators funny names, and claiming that it’s okay that the wall is having little meaningful effect on immigrant levels your trying to reduce, because no one said it would fully fix the problem.



The wall was the centerpiece of Trumps campaign, and has been billed throughout as some panacea, that we need a wall to reduce illegal immigration. But you, and most of the other conservatives in this thread don’t seem to have any actual comprehension or real understanding of the true nature of the problem being faced or human nature in general. 








.

you obviously take this and this site far more serious than I do,  your attempts to belittle and insult in the manner that you do fall on deaf ears, have a nice life.

Yeah I thought so.

A.) You claim link that there is a crisis at the border.

B.) There is already a border fence where there is a crisis

C.) You claim that a proper wall will help, despite:

- Trump isn’t building a proper wall

- The problem is not the lack of a wall, as no one is crossing the wall.

D.) You, and Trump are irrationally focused on one part of the solution, without paying any attention to the complexity of the actual problem, the causes and responses involved - and are championing spending billions of dollars on a solution which is unlikely to have any substantial impact on the problem you’re trying to solve.

E.) When this is all pointed out, you and the conservative idiots here:

- Ignore all the actual facts

- Start talking about Chuck Schumer

- Mischaracterize everything said

- Pretend that the wall is being build and demand I show it isn’t.

- Claim that the wall wasn’t intended to solve all problems (despite this not being the actual point being discussed).

The issue is that you and many others here are just plainly detached from reality, and fail to be able to logically defend any of the nonsense you’vee raising. Your desire for your talking points to be true (they’re not), far outweighs your own ability to logically defend them.

Hence your response on this thread - where you give up even trying.

Nuance isn't common among the left.

the words in the video was their own, if that lead you to believe I said that it is a crisis, just to be clear none of those people in the videos were me

people don't need to cross the wall when they can walk through the water as you stated in some locations, so yes it's not adequate.

I'm not giving up as you put it, i'm just not interested in your childish behavior which you are unable to control it seems.

they have become extremist

btw

you were right and I only have myself to blame LOL

Yeah, it's ok to gawk, but don't try to intervene. TDS is best left to the professionals.

For what reason are you completely ignoring the detail of what I said, and continuing to regurgitate a misrepresentation that I have already answered?

There is a crisis at a location where there is already a barrier.

If your response is to argue who is claiming that there is a crisis, rather than trying to address the problem that it seems that barriers don’t appear to be preventing the very crisis you change argued you need a barrier to help prevent - then you have a big problem with general critical thinking.

For the rest - Please re read the third part of the first post you completely ignored. Your response is not only intellectually dishonest, it’s also dodging the inherent issue - it’s not the case that the wall simply isn’t fully solving the crisis - for the specific facts I have raised multiple files, and you have ignored each time - a wall can’t really address these specific issues in any meaningful way.

Yeah - I am an extremist by continually pointing out you are dishonestly dodging the question, misrepresenting the argument - and ignoring all inconvenient facts. Shame on me.

if they can easily go around, under or over it then yes lack of a wall is a problem and therefore there's no need to cross it in some locations.

so it's really 1 of 2 things, either the current barrier isn't as adequate as it should be or barriers are inadequate.  If a better barrier is put in place then it would function better than what is already there, yes?  Or no matter the barrier they don't work at all.

it is my opinion that the people who actually do order patrol work know how effective barriers are currently and how effective a new design could be.  The ones actually doing the job probably know best imo.

"Claim that the wall wasn’t intended to solve all problems"

nothing can do that, it's not an all or nothing kind of thing imo, all anyone can hope to do is mitigate the problem

problem:  people are crossing the border illegally, what can be done to deter or reduce their chances of success?  physical barrier, patrols, technology etc.

consider wealth people like Pelosi who have walled estates, do they stop everyone who wants to get over them or into the property?  Nope, neither do fences, but they can slow someone down enough to alert security or authorities.  Just like the guy who jumped the white house fence.

personally I would do wide and high rolls of concertina wire, it's cheap, quick and easy to replace and pretty effective in slowing people down.  obviously this does not remove the need for patrols and other methods of surveillance, some of which I have posted already like removing the incentives for people to come here illegally, but I digress.

Because of the political climate we are at a point on border security where it's all or nothing.  IMO Trump selected the expensive designs as a bargaining tool and would have settled for something cheaper, he said metal slats were fine if you remember.  But none of that happened so here we are.

picture also

and more here in a video

now let's not get all pedantic about what is a wall vs a fence because that really doesn't matter, people want border security that is better than what is currently there, and that seems to be happening in some places.

Lol you have a lot of patience with pedantics.

Trump has never been an all or nothing guy on border security. He has had border patrol officials on televised press conferences multiple times explaining what they need for border security while Trump supports them. Trump changes the pedantic language as the officials describe the changing situations at the border in the span of minutes. That's a hell of a lot more responsive than the last 30 years of pedantic quibbles from the Congress.

When conservatives hear the word "wall," they all know he means border security. And we also know it drives the left insane because they get fixated on pedantics. The left is too blinded with TDS to hear the multiple times Trump has said he would use a fence where Officials wanted a fence, and use steel slats in the areas where officials wanted steel slats. In short, they are completely unable to see anything positive because the left IS all or nothing when it comes to the way they think.

Everyone afflicted with TDS can only think in all or nothing terms.

That is why I often make fun of the lack of nuance from any of their ramblings.

it's a slow day at work :)

it should be obvious that none of the designs of the prototypes are being used afaik but none of the conservative outlets seem to care, nor are there protests, angry letters etc because of that fact.  The crazy leftist try to point that out and make jokes etc with little to no reaction.  There's a good reason as to why, because SOMETHING is being done which is far better than the usual nothing that gets done on this issue.

though impractical, I still love the idea of a canal from sea to shining sea, huge boost to the economy, jobs and pay.

Think about how the left frames any issue.

Vote for Obamacare or people won't have health care. There are no other solutions...

Vote for the Green New Deal or we all die in 12 years. There are no other options....

Climate change can ONLY be addressed with the Paris accords.

Reigning in Iran can ONLY be done with the existing Iran nuclear deal.

Vote for a minimum wage hike or the poor will never have any money. You get the idea. Zero nuance.