The overwhelming majority of godists.....

Author: vagabond

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#91
Mopac
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I'm literally talking about The Truth. Not what is said or thought about The Truth, but what The Truth Is.

If you think The Truth is contingent on other things, such as other truths, it is not really The Truth.

The Truth is not contingent on other truths, it is the other way around. A truth would not be True unless The Truth existed.

There are no truths without The Truth. Truths are contingent and relativistic by nature. They only exist in context.
The Truth always is what it is. Eternal Truth.

If you don't believe in The Truth, you don't really believe in truths, and there isn't a way around this. In fact, if The Truth didn't exist, nothing coukd truly exist because The Truth is what makes anything real at all, and truths are only real in some sense. Bu The Truth is real in every sense.

If something exists at all, it is true. So why is this so hard to accept? I am not saying that essence preceeds existence, I am saying that existence is essence... The Essence of God.

So you see, the point being, if you don't believe God exists, you are automatically wrong because existence itself proves God. There is no existence without God because God is existence itself. Eternal Existence. The Ultimate Reality.

So how can anyone not believe God? There is no sensical reason for this at all. It is fundamentally an illogical position to take.

#92
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@Mopac
It's only fundamentally illogical if one accepts your premises. The problem is, you fail to consider the fact that people aren't starting from the same premises as you.
#93
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@drafterman
And what premises are you starting from?

#94
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@Mopac
We've already been over this and I really don't feel like repeating myself. As an example, I don't believe "The Truth" in the same sense as you. So all of this stuff where you root truths in "The Truth." I don't do that.

#95
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@drafterman
What I'm getting out of you is that reality is whatever you can get away with.

So you don't even really believe in truth at all, that's what I'm getting out of this.

If the facts change, The Truth changes.

Thats the impression I am getting, and it looks arbitrary to me.

So please, if I am getting the wrong impression, I would like to be set straight here on what it is you are saying.



#96
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@Mopac
If the facts change, The Truth changes.
Yes, correct.

Thats the impression I am getting, and it looks arbitrary to me.
Again, correct. The facts of the world adhere to no grand master plan. They are what they are.
#97
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@drafterman
So you believe that impermanence is eternal truth?
#98
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@Mopac
So you believe that impermanence is eternal truth?
Not universally so. That facts can change doesn't mean they must change. They simply are.

But, more to the point of our discussion. You include an necessary element of essence to The Truth and the Ultimately Reality that exists above and beyond the mere truths and facts that make them up. I do not believe in this essence, meaning I do not believe in The Truth or Ultimate Reality as you define it, meaning I do not believe in God as you define it.
#99
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@Mopac
What is truth?
You are the one using the word 'truth' so glibly, Mo.  Not only 'truth', but 'Truth' with a capital T!

If you don't know what 'truth' means then peraps you shouldn't use the word.  If you do know, you should say what it means to you.
#100
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@drafterman
There are no facts and truths without The Truth.

It is the ground of all reality.

It is not simply an essence, it is the very existence that all other existences come from. There can be no existence without it.

I don't think you understand what you are denying, because your denial of this Neccessary Truth undermines all truths.



#101
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@keithprosser
There is nothing mysterious about what I'm saying.

The Truth is The Ultimate Reality 


It is what it is.

Yet here I am asked to give endless descriptions of what is fundamentally greater than any understanding of it. I don't think the problem here is a lack of understanding of what this means... I think it is a refusal to accept what this means.

And why?

Because it makes atheism not only wrong, but patently foolish and obviously wrong.

The atheist position is "The truth is a lie!"



#102
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@Mopac
The universe exists - that is to say there is matter and there is energy.   There is nothing god-like anywhere in it - that is 'the truth'.

#103
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@keithprosser
You take the universe as God. You are a pantheist.





#104
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@Mopac
No, I am atheist.   You fail to distinguish between a material universe and a god but I do not.   The simplest way to tell the difference is whether it makes sense to pray to them.  
#105
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@Mopac
Only if I accept your premises. I don't.
#106
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@keithprosser
In other words, you won't accept The Truth unless your demands for a miracle are met.

Well, the only thing you will get is that message, that The Truth is God, and when you deny God, you are denying The Truth. 

#107
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@drafterman
The Truth Is whether or not you choose to accept it.




#108
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"with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

#109
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@Mopac
In other words, you won't accept The Truth unless your demands for a miracle are met.
Well, the only thing you will get is that message, that The Truth is God, and when you deny God, you are denying The Truth. 

I do not deny that there is a reality - but why do you call reality God?   Something that exists is 'reality' or 'truth', but unless it can do miracles it is not a god.



#110
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@Mopac
And I could easily say: The Truth is not whether or not you choose to deny it.

See how much of a useless statement that is to make?

#111
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@keithprosser
The position I am holding is not new, it's thousands of years old. Theology has always recognized this as being God.

You don't really understand this stuff as well as you might think, otherwise you wouldn't say silly things like "unless it can do miracles, it is not a god".

Firstly, I am talking about The God, not just a god or gods. Secondly, performing miracles is not what makes God.

But that aside, how can you look around you and not see miracles? Being alive is a miracle. Even if we weren't surrounded by all this amazing technology, which is pretty miraculous, the intricacy of nature is miraculous.


So what is so hard about believing these words that The Truth is God? This should be a relief. A weight off your shoulders. What better news is there? Now. Instead of debating an inherently stupid position like, "The Truth is a lie!", you can actually debate with people's superstitions without denying God.

Monotheists have been doing this for thousands of years, which is why there isn't an atheist argument that hadn't already been used by monotheists long before.

Atheism towards The One True God is not a rational position. Atheism towards false gods? Well, Christians were called atheists back during the time of The Roman Empire! 
But no, their is One God that is abominably superstitious to deny, and that God is The Supreme And Ultimate Reality.


There is no argument against this God that isn't self defeating. 







#112
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@drafterman
You cannot make statements concerning truth while simultaneously denying The Truth existing.
You undermine your own assertions.


You build your house on sand.

#113
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@Mopac
It seems to me all you are doing is calling 'that which exists' God.  No one will deny that what exists exists!   But why do you call it '
a god?

#114
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@keithprosser
I don't call The Ultimate Reality a god, I call it God.

And I am not making an innovation. This has always been the accepted meaning in theology.

The best example of this is St Augustine because I don't think there is a single work of his that does not explicitely state that God is The Truth, and that is what God means.

Absolute Reality... Truth... this is God. St Augustine is the best example because he is easily one of the most influential theologians and philosophers in the Christian tradition, and as I said, there isn't a work of his where he doesn't explicitely make clear that the identity of God is The Truth.

But I figured this out before I ever read the works of theologians simply from deeply and seriously studying the bible on my own. At the same time, even before I was a believer, The Truth was the most important thing to me. I cared about that more than anything.


Well, God answered my prayers through revelation, and because I don't see anyone who seems competent at debating the subject, I have found a niche.

I do not have a preoccupation with unbelievers or anything, I am very involved in my church, and so most of the teaching I do is for those people. However, it isnout of love that I desire all to come to the knowledge of God. For this reason, I must spray the seed of Truth all over the place, hoping that it may find fertile soil.

But I am detached enough to not take myself as some savior of the world or something. I do charity work, and people who take themselves as being something usually become cynical and jaded when they don't see their efforts yielding the results they'd like to see. I am serene. I am not the one who saves, God is.

#115
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@Mopac
You cannot make statements concerning truth while simultaneously denying The Truth existing.
You can make statements concerning truth while simultaneously denying The Truth existing.

You see how this works? I can take any bare assertion you make and flip it on its head.

#116
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@drafterman
"It is the truth that The Truth doesn't exist! The Truth is a lie!" - effectively your position.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."

As long as you are in this state of blaspheming The Holy Ghost, or The Spirit of Truth, you will be wrong, there is no forgiveness of this sin. It can't be overlooked. There is no fruit of truth to be picked from a tree of denying The Truth. If The Truth doesn't exist, there are no truths. As can be scientifically proven by merely existing, there is truth, so there can be no doubt about whether The Truth exists.


You either truly don't know what you are saying, or you are very delusional. I pray that you repent and turn away from this wickedness.






#117
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@Mopac
You do realize you're on a debate site, right? Like, you're expected to actually argue a position effectively, not just make bare assertions and pray that the other side concedes, right?
#118
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@drafterman
You don't have a debate, you deny that The Truth exists 

You have adopted a failed position not worthy of serious consideration.

So yes, it is my hope that you see the futility of denying The Truth, and come to your senses. 







#119
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@Mopac
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
#120
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@drafterman
"The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools."