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@Mopac
If you were born in North Korea you would worship Kim Jong Un as your god, refute me.
Born in North Korea
Posts
Total:
89
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@disgusted
If you were born in North Korea you would worship Kim Jong Un as your god, refute me.
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@secularmerlin
The reality we experience goes through several filters. Our senses are tuned very specifically to pick up even only a certain range of what that sense is looking at. Our eyes see light, but they don't see ultraviolet or infrared light. They are not tuned to see microscopic things. Our ears pick up vibrations, but we cannot hear dog whistles or sense the low notes that we are subjected to everyday from the rumblings of our own planet.
We know these things outside of our range of sense exist becsuse of instruments we have invented to augment the senses we either already have, or have discovered through scientific discovery.
I don't think it strange to believe that there is an entire world around us that escapes both our innate senses and the senses we have through technology. It seems apparent to me that not only is this possible or likely, but even the evident truth.
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@Mopac
I don't think it strange to believe that there is an entire world around us that escapes both our innate senses and the senses we have through technology. It seems apparent to me that not only is this possible or likely, but even the evident truth.
I don't agree. Our instruments have not shown us 'an entire world' exists different from the world revealed by our senses. There is only one world, about which we learn something about through our senses, and yet more about through our instruments.
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@keithprosser
I don't agree. Our instruments have not shown us 'an entire world' exists different from the world revealed by our senses. There is only one world, about which we learn something about through our senses, and yet more about through our instruments.
Lol you guys and your instruments and oh how you trust them. Technology is a progression, that means at no point does any instrument measure all that exists, neither in the past nor in the future and to make that claim would be ridiculous so it's much better to remain open and look at all the facts.
We do know that the human perception of say...color is extremely limited by what we observe through the physical eyeball BUT lo and behold, guess what happens when the soul leaves the physical body? look at how many people that have left the body always say what?? they say they saw colors they never knew existed almost every time. Well despite your admittance you think you know it all and are not open to new information the reason why people see those colors when leaving the body is because they are no longer limited by the material form, their perception and senses are no longer bound to the human body, the soul is no longer observing through physical eyes and so they are able to see much more of the full spectrum of color.
The subtle body or spirit bodies the soul observes through away from the material body exists at a much higher vibration, a much finer frequency than the weighty physical body. This is also why NDE's show that the person experiences a much lighter experience, and they feel as if they can hover or even float or fly. This is true and what we all will encounter because the spirit form is by far less dense that the material human bodies, the interesting thing is that this can happen at many different frequencies and vibrations each much finer than the one that preceded it and the immaterial conscious soul can observe through each layer. Once you get to the actual core of the soul or the state of the Creator there is no more form, no more embodiment just awareness alone, and that is a singular Reality. Creating forms, which are distinguished by their vibrational rates, are what gives the soul something to experience.
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@EtrnlVw
I don't think people who describe their nde's and obe's are liars, but there is no solid reason to treat ndes/obes as anything except dreams.
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@keithprosser
Yet this "one world" is experienced by us through an image that is the product of filtering through not only our senses but also our intellect, buth subconscious and conscious.
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@Mopac
Pharaoh liked to make this pretense of being a god.
You obviously know absolutely FK ALL about the ancient Egyptians.
These gods come and go, they are born and they die.
They did come, go and die. Just as the ancient Mesopotamians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Akkadians and the Sumerians say they did. These so called gods were flesh and blood beings and it is only clowns such as yourself who deemed them to be omnipotent, all singing all dancing supernatural entities.
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@Stephen
Your assertions about what I believe is contradicted by what you are responding to.
Even North Koreans know that Kim Jung Un is not The Truth.
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@disgusted
It's not like they can do anything about it. They have to worship Kim Jun Un as a leader.
Also that is not true at all. He is their "leader." Most North Koreans practice Buddhism and Confucianism, a system that does not have a god and solely encourages the right behavior. That is what they worship religiously. There is nothing against saying that Kim Jun Un is a supreme leader. They believe there is nothing to do but be a good citizen to the country. Not their fault Kimmy is brainwashing them
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@disgusted
Plus in Confucianism, they say you have to respect the elders. Kim is their elder
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@disgusted
Making claims regarding religious geographical beliefs is the point I'm making, atheism is not a religion. I can only speak for myself but my atheism is a result of examining and rejecting the claims of godism. All godism.
It seems like you're neatly compartmentalizing this to keep it contained to only regional religion, so that anything you self-identify with (like atheism) is safe from the scope of your argument.
But I don't think you are safe from the scope of your argument. Nor am I. Why can't what you're saying be applied to any worldview?
Your environment, experiences, and genes have caused you to be everything you are. The choice to accept or reject religion is one you make based on these random factors.
I'm not saying religion and atheism have equal footing on an argumentative basis. I'm only saying that it's probably hypocritical for one product of chance to point and laugh at another product of chance. For being a product of chance. I think as atheists we need to exercise a little humility here and admit that we too are merely hostages of circumstance and chaos.
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@Castin
I think as atheists we need to exercise a little humility here and admit that we too are merely hostages of circumstance and chaos.
The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Eccles. 9:11
2nd best book in bible.
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@Castin
The west really dropped the ball. The Latin Church broke away from Orthodoxy and embraced scholasticism. The protestant reformation threw out the church with the pope, and inherited scholasticism from the schismatic Latin church they rejected.
Atheism is really quite naturally the child of protestant scholasticism.
And really it is no surprise to us Orthodox that widespread theological ignorance leads to atheism.
Unfortunately, atheists in the west think they knowingly reject Christianity when really they rejected a form of Christianity that was delivered to them corrupted from the beginning.
The well has been poisoned. The ground has been salted.
Orthodox evangelism is a lot more effective with protestants than with atheists. Most protestants don't believe in their churches anyway. Of course, they have been educated to be very anti-Roman Catholic which in itself is an obstacle, because there is a superficial resemblance between Orthodoxy and the Latin Church.
If you simply go off of church history and the writings of the church fathers, it is a lot easier to back Orthodoxy's claim to being The Church. The Roman Catholic Church has clearly deviated.
And all that might not matter to you until you realize that all Christianity in the west is descended from the schismatic Latin Church, and they have done more damage to the name of Christ than any other institution on the planet and continue to do so.
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@keithprosser
I don't think people who describe their nde's and obe's are liars,
That would be a good start. Anyone who would assume innocent people lying about death experiences would be pretty sick.
but there is no solid reason to treat ndes/obes as anything except dreams.
You would be making the assumption people don't know the difference between dreams and what they observe as reality, or what we will observe leaving the body. Had you done research, the experiences leaving the body are more real than the physical sense experience/perception, no one as I've examined says its like being in a dream state. Big difference between being half conscious and fully aware.
I can attest that my own spiritual experiences are not like dreaming, they are much more alive and conscious than the physical experience.
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@EtrnlVw
I have no doubt you believe that to be true.I can attest that my own spiritual experiences are not like dreaming, they are much more alive and conscious than the physical experience.
The spiritual exercises that are practiced among Hindus and their cousins the Eckists are made to induce prelest. That is why testing the spirits is such an important thing. That is why Orthodoxy has a monastic tradition that is built around identifying and curing this sort of thing.
One of the typical indications of prelest is that it is usually accompanied by pride. Real spiritual advancement is always accompanied by a sincere humility.
That sort of thing isn't possible in traditions where the greatest sin is really to forget that you are God.
This sort of thing isn't the easiest to diiscern either. For example, Saint Francis, who the current bishop of Rome takes his name is often times considered a paragon of humility in the west. Based on the what is known about him, by Orthodox standards he would have been victim of prelest.
Really though, in the broadest sense we all really suffer from some form of prelest.
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@Mopac
Perhaps you should explain how prelest relates to hesychasm and theoria.
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@Mopac
I don't care about your church or religion, I reject the man made claim regarding gods and using a capital g doesn't change that. All gods are the creation of man.
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@Vader
He's 38, an elder to you not me.
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@Mopac
Even North Koreans know that Kim Jung Un is not The Truth.
So they don't worship your little god. You claim to worship the truth and yet you refuse to accept the truth that your god is man made.
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@Mopac
Evidence that everything you say is not true according to the above sentence, you are overwhelmed by your HUBRIS.One of the typical indications of prelest is that it is usually accompanied by pride. Real spiritual advancement is always accompanied by a sincere humility.
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@keithprosser
A clean Nous is a sound defense against prelest, as is a Nous directed towards God.
Another important ingredient here is to have guidance from someone other than just yourself, a spiritual elder in the Orthodox discipline.
Doing things all on your own is an easy way to become prideful, which tends to multiply prelest. Besides that, a spiritual elder will advise you in ways that will help you catch yourself in these things.
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@Mopac
Yeah using your brain in place of your indoctrination is just to scary for a godist. First commandment of godism is thou shall not think.
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@keithprosser
Perhaps you should explain how prelest relates to hesychasm and theoria.
Mopac likes to make assumptions about my spiritual character which is what you find with most corrupted souls under the control of religious authority. Number one, had he asked I have several mentors and legit Elders I entrust and they aren't anything like what you would find in Catholicism I can tell you that much, these aren't shallow pretentious men these are the real deal IMO. Mopac also might not understand this is a debate site, meaning I am here to explain and defend positions so I guess anyone who comes confidently apparently cannot also possess humility (sure). The truth is that I've put my heart and soul into all of this, I've always loved the Creator no one can take that away from me...Either way he is obviously threatened by what I write and my viewpoints. He claims to be some martyr yet he keeps condemning me and what he labels protestant, but confident people don't need to condemn others to make their arguments....hence his pride.
He's probably more offended or jealous that I don't but into religious control and authority and he now spends his life kissing his Catholic Masters butts and if he ventures outside his cult he will get cut off and condemned to a very hot place. With that guilt and suppression no wonder he always shoots me in the back when I'm discussing with other members.
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@keithprosser
What's your #1?I think as atheists we need to exercise a little humility here and admit that we too are merely hostages of circumstance and chaos.The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.Eccles. 9:112nd best book in bible.
I'm sure you've said before but I seem to have forgotten.
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@Mopac
The west really dropped the ball. The Latin Church broke away from Orthodoxy and embraced scholasticism. The protestant reformation threw out the church with the pope, and inherited scholasticism from the schismatic Latin church they rejected.Atheism is really quite naturally the child of protestant scholasticism.And really it is no surprise to us Orthodox that widespread theological ignorance leads to atheism.Unfortunately, atheists in the west think they knowingly reject Christianity when really they rejected a form of Christianity that was delivered to them corrupted from the beginning.The well has been poisoned. The ground has been salted.Orthodox evangelism is a lot more effective with protestants than with atheists. Most protestants don't believe in their churches anyway. Of course, they have been educated to be very anti-Roman Catholic which in itself is an obstacle, because there is a superficial resemblance between Orthodoxy and the Latin Church.If you simply go off of church history and the writings of the church fathers, it is a lot easier to back Orthodoxy's claim to being The Church. The Roman Catholic Church has clearly deviated.And all that might not matter to you until you realize that all Christianity in the west is descended from the schismatic Latin Church, and they have done more damage to the name of Christ than any other institution on the planet and continue to do so.
I'm curious why you wrote all this to me.
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@Castin
What's your #1?I'm sure you've said before but I seem to have forgotten.
If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents.