An exceedingly simple question

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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#91
Outplayz
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@Discipulus_Didicit
In light of this I would like to ask again why you think it is the case that a person's afterlife is determined by what that person believes the afterlife will be like.
Well, for many reasons. The spiritual platforms have this implication when you get into the details. I will go into one of them, non-duality, bc it basically explains the rest being basically the same as any monistic belief, pantheism, panentheism, oneness, etc. If we are all "god" then we are all in control of ourselves. There are many ways this could play out. Either we all become literally god, turning into one super entity, or the platform itself is divided. I tend to think the platform is divided. For a lot of the reasons i anthropomorphize bc really it's all i can do being it's all we know of intelligence. With that said, it's logical that intelligence plays out how it does even if it is in another form. Plus, if it is "me," in some sense, that continues... well, it's logical it will play out how i know. 

Anyways, i think a oneness platform would divide bc intelligence such as ours would find being only "one" entity alive would be terrifying... especially if it is infinite. So, i think it would divide into multiple entities instead of staying as one. Considering an incorporeal or infinite unbound consciousness could do anything it can imagine, this wouldn't be in the realm of impossibilities. Therefore, if we all die and go back to a source platform, you can call it god i guess i call it source bc it's more fitting, then i believe within this platform we have individualized. Now, this has some caveats, i don't think everyone has, nor do these rules apply to everyone which is what makes spirituality very hard to grasp and verbalize. Bc an infinite intelligence has thought of everything. So it is everyone, everything, and it is also not everyone and everything... it would have thought of everything. So a platform such as pantheism, god is infinite and basically an unbound consciousness / intelligence. The implications of that is wild knowing what we know. This is what leads us into believing you are / control your own platform. 

If one doesn't believe they control there own platform or paradise, then it is very likely that they don't. They would fall under the caveats. In such a platform, that is possible. So it really comes down to what you are. Bc every character has been imagined. Think of it as an art piece or our own movies. If there is a rock star, that rock star comes with its fans. If these fans become infinite and can control their own paradise, would they always choose to be fans? Or would they continue to be fans in every reality they manifest into. See i don't know. I think maybe some will always be fans, and some can be both. That's why it is so hard to explain this spirituality. But if you are imagined as a fan, i am starting to believe you will continue to be whatever it is that you are. Basically, if you can imagine being the rock star, you can become the rock star. The interesting part is, i use to be a musician and have talked to a lot of fans, and some die hard fanboys and girls. They "can't" imagine being the rock star... they acknowledge they find more enjoyment in being the fan and would hate being on the other side. I find that interesting in such a platform. 

So, the spiritual platform is one reason. Then there is this experience in what i see. The society i am in does control me, and so does my environment, but i am in full control of myself, i.e. my thoughts. Sure life can steer me certain directions, but it is ultimately my mind that controls what i do in said environment. I can even be locked up in a torture type scenario, and still.. i can control where my mind is until it's shut off. So, if our mind continues after this life, why would it be logical it isn't still under my control? Now, this would depend on the afterlife platform. If it's a matrix type of thing, i.e. i have a physical body somewhere else, then i will just continue in whatever that next platform is... in control of myself still, but not "paradise" (which paradise means reality basically). But, if i die and my consciousness becomes infinite, incorporeal, etc., in a non-dual type platform, then that would mean i am in full control of even the reality. Since now i am just 'mind' and no body. 

So it really comes down to the platform. Something like Christianity would be similar to the matrix analogy. You get a body somewhere else and you have to put up with that reality. But i do not favor that view and favor the non-dual, infinite consciousness type platforms. They make more sense which i can explain why (other than these reasons above) if you ask me questions. But for instance as i am saying in the other thread that this platform suits an infinite setting. So for example, the problem of infinite regress is solved by an infinite consciousness that travels the platform by thought. Bc thought is always present. It doesn't matter the distance, if it is in the past or future... an infinite mind will be there if it is there. It will create where ever the thought is, or manifest where ever the thought is. Since it is always present, it can exist presently in any moment of the infinite setting. So if there is infinite earths before this earth, it isn't about when the big bang gets to this reality, it's about when this infinite mind becomes present in this one reality. One of the many reasons i favor an infinite consciousnesses type belief.    

Btw, i'm glad you define "belief" like i do. It takes me forever to tell people i don't mean it in an iron clad way, it just means i suspect all this more than i do not. Many people don't take it that way... so we are on the same page in that regard.

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#92
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Outplayz
I will definitely respond to this... Might be a few days though, there is a lot to read and think about there.
#93
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It's all good. I'm not always on myself. And to think, a one sentence question could have so much answer. It is a deep question though. I don't choose to believe what i do off faith, so i try to reason as logically as i can... i am holding back too. Lol. I'll try to be more concise in the future.  
#94
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 No need to be a hot head, that's good enough reason to end this now. 
#95
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Absolute loser.
#96
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@Outplayz
It's all good. I'm not always on myself. And to think, a one sentence question could have so much answer. It is a deep question though. I don't choose to believe what i do off faith, so i try to reason as logically as i can... i am holding back too. Lol. I'll try to be more concise in the future.  
I'd sum it up as believing that being dead is like having a lucid dream.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Why do you believe your religion is right?
Because it is based in rational, logical common sense, that, is derived from observations of the environment that surrounds and embraces us.

Because the alternatives lack rational, logical common sense, that is derived from irrational, illogical lack of common sense.

There is no evidence for an infinite Occupied Space Uni-V-erse.

There is no evidence for Uni-V-erse that is not eternally existent.

Physical//energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Occupied Space cannot be created nor destroyed.

None have ever offered any shred of rational, logical, common sense that invalidates my conclusions, as stated.

None ever will is by belief. I have faith//trust that the oncoming vechicle will not cross the center line and collide with my vehicle, yet I know that such does occasionally happen, for various reasons.







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@keithprosser
I'd sum it up as believing that being dead is like having a lucid dream.
Sure, that is a pretty good sum up of the implications. I think he wanted my reasoning for it, so i added that into my explanation which would be why it's a long answer. I also wanted to add that i am starting to suspect this isn't how it plays out for everyone. Which is why i am suspecting, due to everyone being in control of themselves, things play out in infinitely different types of scenarios. Anyways, you can chime in with critiques too if you have any. 

Have you ever had a lucid dream? 
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#99
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@Outplayz
Just read through your post for the first time and I think that while you have answered the question of what you believe is true with a more detailed explanation than you did before, which certainly will help us to communicate going forward, I can't help but notice you seem to have been a bit vague as to what it is that causes you to believe this explanation is true. In other words you were very succinct as to the "what" but not so much as to the "why". You didn't avoid it altogether but it seems to have been at the periphery of your post and not the main focus, primarily either stating "it is not impossible" or "This other random explanation seems less likely" rather than explaining what makes your idea at all likely. I am going to read through it again and respond specifically to certain parts below and hopefully you will see from that why I say this.

Anyways, i think a oneness platform would divide bc intelligence such as ours would find being only "one" entity alive would be terrifying... especially if it is infinite. So, i think it would divide into multiple entities instead of staying as one. Considering an incorporeal or infinite unbound consciousness could do anything it can imagine, this wouldn't be in the realm of impossibilities.

As I thought we agreed before saying something is "not impossible" is a far cry from saying that it is true or even that it is a justified belief. The existence of an "infinite unbound consciousness" here is something you have not supported - in other words you have not explained why you think this "infinite unbound consciousness" exists. I am sure you could explain more in-depth what you believe the nature of this consciousness is but as much detail as you give that would not tell me why you think it actually exists.

Therefore, if we all die and go back to a source platform, you can call it god i guess i call it source bc it's more fitting, then i believe within this platform we have individualized.

This is another example of what I was talking about above. You do well in explaining what you believe and I do now have a good basic understanding of what you believe. Based on this quote you believe:

  • Our minds continue to exist after death
  • Our minds return to this "source platform" after death
  • After this return our minds "have individualized"

You later even go on to describe what you mean by this last point in the form of an analogy. However, you do little even in the following paragraphs to explain why you believe any of this. The closest you come to doing that comes in the next quote...

Something like Christianity would be similar to the matrix analogy. You get a body somewhere else and you have to put up with that reality. But i do not favor that view and favor the non-dual, infinite consciousness type platforms. They make more sense which i can explain why (other than these reasons above) if you ask me questions.

Now while I do intend to ask you questions for as long as you are willing to answer them, the fact that your ideas might make more sense than some other random idea of the afterlife does not actually mean that your ideas make sense in general much less that they are true. Even if you did explain in more detail why it is that what you are saying makes more sense than something that was made up a couple thousand years ago that does not explain why you think that your idea does make sense, that only explains why you think theirs do not.

In short, I am not asking nor will I ask why you don't believe other ideas, I am asking why you do believe yours. The existence of an "infinite mind" is one example of something that is central to your description of the afterlife yet you never explain what it is that led you to the conclusion that an "infinite mind" exists.
#100
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well. I thought there is a little more to the "why" in my answer than the what i believe. For instance, it can be an explanation for infinite regress paradox. But i understand what you mean that i described what i believe a little more so. I'm trying to think of the "whys" but the list isn't that long since i'm not entirely sure if this platform is correct. But there are still some reasons why i prefer it. 

Our sciences and/or world would be compatible. Everything is made of the the same particle. That could be bc it is ultimately one. The infinite regress paradox fix is one. The rest, and i must admit my ignorance of science here, i'm not too confident of. But when i here it told by others as a layman, they also seem compatible such as the double slit experiment and variation thereof, and the spooky action of quantum entanglement. Then there are theorized stuff like multiple universes and some other hypothesis.  

Second reason in the why is the world around us. I believe spooky things happen, spiritual experiences. It would explain why everyone has there own type of experience and anything spiritual in nature is subjective to the observer. Then there is the potential for this world. This is just a guess though, but if humans fully integrate with machines, this one mind, one download, type world is possible. A computer that has all consciousness downloaded into it is correlative to the platforms i say i favor. So again it's conceivable. Lastly is our art. In our art, each person creates world of their own. This is a little less potent as the others, but i see how one person can be creative to the level of creating universes, i.e. harry potter, marvel, etc. It's curious to me, given in infinite platform, how crazy the implications of an infinite mind can actually be. Bc within the worlds we even create, there are characters, events, a story. And just as it is happening in our art, i don't see why it can't be happening in a grander scale. 

But like i said earlier, the why is a little trickier than the what. Bc giving solid "why" answers means i'm 100% on board, which i'm not. I just find it to be the most likely which is easier to explain why giving my reasons of what it is. But, i can do better when you ask direct questions like you have. So, i hope i touched on the 'whys' this time around. If not, tell me what kind of "why" answers you are looking for bc i may be misconstruing what you're asking me to explain. 
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@Outplayz
One of the best parts of this sort of view is that there are multiple platforms which would allow for such implications.
And even better it's as easy as to invent a new platform whenever the need arises. Just create the platforms that pacify you and you can be happy forever, well for as long as you live anyway.

#102
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@disgusted
And even better it's as easy as to invent a new platform whenever the need arises. Just create the platforms that pacify you and you can be happy forever, well for as long as you live anyway.
That most definitely would be true if i was here to prove every sub-human that doesn't believe what i do wrong. But that isn't my attentions. I'm just curious that there are platforms that can be construed as possible. That / this subject has interested my for a very long time. In that search, i have found multiple platforms that have potential to be viable. So, it would be silly of me, and quite close-minded like the other theists you "debate", to say i have the answer and it's this platform and if you don't believe it you are deluded. At least give me some points, although not necessary.

The extent i would call someone close-minded and/or deluded based on beliefs... religious or not, is one one presupposes they have the right answer. If you think about it, we are infants in the mothers wound, if that, compared to time. To think we know anything is laughable. And by that same logic, a lot of the stuff you are hearing from people looking into the future and "making stuff up" about the future, are a lot more likely to be right than the person that thinks what he knows today is the right answer.

So who knows... all i know is that we have the ability to imagine into the future. And, i'm pretty sure a lot of our awesome inventions come from people with this ability. There is something to it. Whether that correlates with spiritual subject or not is irrelevant. Humans have the capacity to imagine the impossible and manifest it to a degree. I find that interesting. 



#103
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@Outplayz
i would call someone close-minded and/or deluded based on beliefs... religious or not, is one one presupposes they have the right answer.
The thing is that taking up atheism means giving up on having 'right answers'.   Atheists don't claim to know the right answer - the claim is that 'goddidit' is the wrong answer.  That's a sort of close-mindedness of course, but nothing's perfect!

Atheists believe that truth might be forever out of reach,but the way to get ever closer to it is to think hard, and work hard.  Do experiments.  Be prepared to admit mistakes and try again.    Atheists don't think truth is something people can make up to suit their tastes.  Anybody can fantasize so fantasies aren't very interesting.  I can riff on 'what if nde's are true'  too, but what's the point when they are neurological events, not mystical ones.


Theists are close-minded because they do claim to know the right answers, but atheists are open to well presented, cogent arguments.  it's just that such arguments are very rare!

#104
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@Outplayz
Yes that's what I said, imagine whatever you like and then believe your imaginations are reality. I tend to find reality more than enough without imagining gods, ghosts, goblins and ghouls.
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#105
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Outplayz
Our sciences and/or world would be compatible. Everything is made of the the same particle. That could be bc it is ultimately one.

Let's pretend this statement about there only being one type of elementary particle is true. As far as I know that is not the generally accepted view of the scientific community but that is not relevant to my point.

Do you think that "science does not outright disprove [insert idea here]" should be considered a valid reason to accept an idea as true?

Notice I asked whether that would be a valid reason to accept an idea, I did not ask whether that would be a valid reason to avoid discarding an idea. That would be a different question entirely.

Second reason in the why is the world around us. I believe spooky things happen, spiritual experiences. It would explain why everyone has there own type of experience and anything spiritual in nature is subjective to the observer. 

Most of what you say, with the exception of this quote here regarding experiences, seems to simply sum up as "it is not impossible as far as I know". The experiences you mention here seem to be the only positive support of your position that I can see. Would you lime to talk more in-depth about these experiences?

But like i said earlier, the why is a little trickier than the what. Bc giving solid "why" answers means i'm 100% on board, which i'm not.

Wrong. It is possible to believe something without being 100% sure. It is possible to have reasons for said belief if said belief is justified.

An example of this:

----------------

Alex: Hey, is that Charlie that just pulled into the driveway?

Bob: I believe so, yes.

Alex: Why do you think so?

Bob: It sounds like his truck to me.

Alex: How can you be 100% sure without looking out the window?

Bob: I am not 100% sure but I do think it is Charlie's truck and the reason I think so is because it sounds like Charlie's truck.

----------------

Yes, it is possible to have reasons for believing things you are not 100% sure about.

The only beliefs that don't have reasoning behind them are unjustified beliefs.
#106
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes, it is possible to have reasons for believing things you are not 100% sure about.
The only beliefs that don't have reasoning behind them are unjustified beliefs.
I suggest a belief is a 'scrap of information in a brain' and are usually tagged with a 'level of confidence'.   I would say bob originally believed (ie had the belief) 'Charlie is not around'.   On hearing the noise bob updated his belief to '80% charlie's turned up, 20% he still isn't here'.

In ordinary, untechnical language we tend to say 'know' when confidence is high, 'believe' when confidence is low, eg I know paris is the capital of france, I believe Bangui is the capital of Chad'.

As people are people (not robots or computers) the level of confidence attached to a belief may have no relationship to its jusification or even validity!
 
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@Outplayz
Humans have the capacity to imagine the impossible and manifest it to a degree. I find that interesting. 
If it is inviolate impossible cosmic law//principle, then it is never ever manifiest to any degree.

Thetr does not existm and never will, to any degree, more than five, regular//symmetrical and convex polyhedra of our one, finite, Uni-V-erse

SPACE (>*<)  i  (>*<) SPACE

SPACE ( Time }  i  ( Time ) SPACE

SPACE (><)  ego  (><) SPACE

...1......................5P.........7P................11P........13P..................17P......19P......Occupied Space Gravity (  )

-
-
o................................6..............................12..................................18..............Occupied Space Time

.............3P..................................9..................................15.............................,,.Occupied Space Time
-
-

......2P.............4......................8......10......................14........16...........................Occupied Space Dark Energy )(



0, 1, 5P, 6, 4, 2, = hexagon and nuclear 3P

3P, 5P, 7P, 9, 8, 4 = hexagon and nuclear 6

6, 7P, 11P, 12, 10, 8 and nuclear 9

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#108
Discipulus_Didicit
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@keithprosser
I suggest a belief is a 'scrap of information in a brain' and are usually tagged with a 'level of confidence'.   I would say bob originally believed (ie had the belief) 'Charlie is not around'.   On hearing the noise bob updated his belief to '80% charlie's turned up, 20% he still isn't here'.

Yeah, sounds right to me.

I was responding specifically to the claim that a lack of 100% certainty makes one unable to justify their beliefs. Bob is only 80% sure of his belief but he still clearly has a justification - the truck sound.
#109
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I suggest a belief is a 'scrap of information in a brain' and are usually tagged with a 'level of confidence'.   I would say bob originally believed (ie had the belief) 'Charlie is not around'.   On hearing the noise bob updated his belief to '80% charlie's turned up, 20% he still isn't here'.
Yeah, sounds right to me
Bob ears deteted air-born vibrations which were turned into conscious experience of sound.  That sound was matched to an entry in a vast library of remembered sounds and identified as 'charlie's truck'.  The inference 'charlie's here' was made, qualified to 80% because the fact that other trucks sound the same was factored in.   All that happened - and probably a lot more - without bob giving it any conscious though at all.

So I shouldn't have said "bob updated his belief" - bob's brain updated it for him to use.
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#110
Discipulus_Didicit
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@keithprosser
So I shouldn't have said "bob updated his belief" - bob's brain updated it for him to use.

My point regarding there being a justification to Bob's belief still stands, does it not? Whether that justification just happened to be registered consciously or instead first registered unconsciously then later consciously discussed with Alex in this particular instance seems irrelevant to that point. The justification exists either way.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Do you think that "science does not outright disprove [insert idea here]" should be considered a valid reason to accept an idea as true?
No. You're right. It isn't a valid reason as you say it. It just doesn't count it out. That's really all i am looking at from the science perspective. Since i'm well aware science doesn't prove or disprove anything. With that said, science can disprove with a little more certainty other beliefs. I just don't think this is one that it can disprove with any amount of force. It's really sorta like solipsism with a twist. Main thing to me however is that it is the strongest when correlating it to science. That isn't saying much, and i'm not trying to. It just moves me along to thinking of other thing rather than saying "well science disproves this so i should just go on faith." Which i'm not trying bag on. Respect to anyone that does that, i just feel more comfortable when things seem consistent. 

Would you lime to talk more in-depth about these experiences?
This isn't something i can be concise with since my experience span back to being 5 or 6 years old. I remember three things from around that age and older that were not possible. I saw an apparition of a blue angle jet pilot that recently crashed and died. I saw what can best be described as a demon in my past homes balcony. And one of the weirder ones was when i planed to go to the queen marry with my family. I asked my uncle where is it. As soon as i said that, i heard the sound of a ships horn. My uncle pointed, "there." All of these i was too young to know they were anything different. However, i did feel they were supernatural... but that's another thing about me... i have always, since i can remember, felt like i am here from another reality. So as a kid, i was sure the supernatural is real. I was mostly always confused why it didn't happen on demand or more often. Anyways, the stories above started it all for me... the journey of finding answers. Now, these are things that happened when i was young. 5 to 9/10. I have had other experiences in older ages too. 

For the sake of not writing a novel i will try to shorten each event and tell you only the most profound. First one was i saw an arua of blue around my cousin. I got scared and went home and thought it was a fluke and then saw one around myself that was green while staring at myself in the mirror. The colors where as bright as led light bulbs. This again started my journey that's why i tell it. The next three were the most profound. While in meditation i was told i can find my 'higher adviser' but to be careful of evil spirits and to tell them to leave when i see them. I did it, saw something evil, said leave... and heard bang bang bang in my house. I'm naturally skeptical so i held my concentration and waiting a few more times, 6 to be exact. Each time i said leave, on que i heard bangs when i said leave. 

Next experience was at a friends friend's house. The house looked haunted so i joked about it. The kids eyes lid up and said "how did you know." He went on and told my stories that were just impossible, but the theme of them was it can manipulate live things. So i got an idea, took off my necklace, and told him to tell it to spin it. Being skeptical minded, i said wait as i sat and held my hand as steady as i can and also observed the natural spin. Once i was ready i said go. He said spin it, it started spinning wildly to the right. I still wasn't convinced so i said tell it to stop it. He yelled stop it. It slowed and stopped. I still needed more proof and thought it would be impossible if it spins hard left at this point. I asked that, he said it, it started spinning violently to the left. It was my necklace, i was watching his hands, and there is another person there that can corroborate i'm not imagining it. I wanted to go back and try it again, and other things, but the kid died a week later. 

#112
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Last one that happened to me was while i went to a party bus to vegas. This one needs the context but i'll try to make it short. I'm introverted and never in a million years would i go to Vegas in a tour bus. However, the whole year before i was having reoccuring dreams of being in Vegas looking for something but not being able to find it. So when a friend asked, that sparked me to go thinking i wonder what the dreams meant. First night there, i got called to a friends room at night. Another thing was, i was getting really bad vibes. When i got to the room, all friends were crying. Apparently, a friend was in the bathroom throwing up blood every 3 minutes give or take. They didn't know what to do. As soon as they said something about what to do... i got hit with a feeling, it's hard to explain. My body felt energized... like fuzzy electricity radiating from my body. And at the same time i heard a voice, "tell everyone to leave you can heal him." I've never heard a voice before, but i have felt that fuzzy feeling before which is a more personal story but i'll tell you what it did at the end. So, i tell everyone to leave and circle the room not knowing what to do. As i'm circling, he threw up blood two more times, so i thought, if this doesn't work i have to take him to the hospital. So, i put my hand on his head. That fuzzy feeling i had felt like it drained from the bottom of my feet to the last of it leaving my finger tips. The crazier part is, as soon as the last of it left, he went from cringing and holding his stomach in pain, to a breathe of relief and a smile on his face. Of course i poked him a couple times to make sure it worked, as my mind was blown... he kept saying leave me alone i feel perfectly fine. The trippy thing is, that fuzzy feeling i had one other time before were i was mentally healed of some personal stuff. 

One last one i will throw in that i don't usually share has to do with someone else. It was a friend of mine that was a bad heroin addict. He was really fun to be around but not when he was high, but i would still go over trying to help him take less. One day he told me the people he picked up from are gangsters. They acted tuff with him and told him some stuff, but this kid was happy go lucky... he kept telling me don't worry they just messin around. But i personally got a bad feeling. Another day i saw him, he wasn't himself. I asked whats wrong. He said he had the weirdest night. He said everytime he was about to fall asleep, he would see full apparitions of people coming in and trying to kill him. The next day, the gang killed him by giving him rat poison to inject. 

Now i have critically thought of all of these experiences, and they all have natural explanations. But in my opinion, the natural explanations are a little more far fetched than what i've actually experienced. You have to take it for what it is... a big who knows. Since i can't control any of this. Another thing, each experience is a different strength. What i mean by that is the coincidence that needed to happen in order for it to happen. The last one, friend dying by gangsters i would categorize as a weaker experience, where the other three in my older ages i would categorize as strong. I've really thought this through and all i can tell you is there are things that happen, or seem to happen, that break the rules of what we know "today." Who knows if in the future we figure out these things are just as natural as a germ virus, but i'm quite confident they happen. And there theme points towards another reality that we can't see with intelligent entities. 

Another important thing to note here is that these are my experiences. I know it might seem like multiple people since i'm blessed (i'm being sarcastic) with so many experiences. But this is an important note bc i am not the only person that reports experiences that defy are laws. To me, only one out of the millions has to be true for the implications to be wild. I've had more than a dozen, which i'll gladly leave out since you're sick of ready by now. Imagine that, i've had this many, and millions of others have had them too... and only one has to truly have happened in order for there to be just something. So, i am quite confident there is something more to this world we don't know that defies are current understandings. What that is, i can only piece together, or try to... which i have and have come to the conclusions i have. It's really hard for me to turn away from it's possibility being on the front lines of seeing these things. Is it bc that's how i was born? Or something extra in my mind that isn't blocked? I don't know. By i have an idea, which fits into my spiritual platforms, why everyone doesn't experience such things. 

I know i said i'll try to cut it short, but i soon released these won't make much without the context. So sorry for the story time but i hope you find it interesting and it makes it a little more clear why i see things the way i do. 

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#113
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Outplayz
Now i have critically thought of all of these experiences, and they all have natural explanations. But in my opinion, the natural explanations are a little more far fetched than what i've actually experienced. You have to take it for what it is... a big who knows. Since i can't control any of this. Another thing, each experience is a different strength. What i mean by that is the coincidence that needed to happen in order for it to happen. The last one, friend dying by gangsters i would categorize as a weaker experience, where the other three in my older ages i would categorize as strong. I've really thought this through and all i can tell you is there are things that happen, or seem to happen, that break the rules of what we know "today." Who knows if in the future we figure out these things are just as natural as a germ virus, but i'm quite confident they happen. And there theme points towards another reality that we can't see with intelligent entities.

I am glad you acknowledge the possibility of a natural explanation for the things that happened, for example the possibility that with the experience of you being warned against encountering evil forces during meditation perhaps this warning subconsciously stuck in your head and influenced your experience. I get the impression that you think the supernatural explanation is more likely though. Do you think it would be possible to put a number on just how likely said natural explanations might be compared to yours or do you think your description of them as 'weak experiences' or 'strong experiences' is as detailed as you can get?
#114
Outplayz
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Do you think it would be possible to put a number on just how likely said natural explanations might be compared to yours or do you think your description of them as 'weak experiences' or 'strong experiences' is as detailed as you can get?
Real fast to your first part i didn't copy; yes... i do acknowledge there can be natural explanations, and do i think the supernatural ones are more likely? I really don't know. My experiences are what keep me pretty solidly in the agnostic zone suspecting that a spiritual plane, whatever it is, is real. I left out many other experiences i've had... so it's not just these four i've shared. Which gets us to this question i copied... it's a good question. 

I say it's a good question bc who am i to rate them in general. Someone else can have had way more profound experiences than i have throwing my metric off. I just don't know. But as to just rating them among my own experiences... i like to think weak, medium, profound or strong. The way i measure those is by how many coincidences must have had to happen for these experiences to have happened. 

For instance, the one of my friends is just one coincidence. He had a dream foreshadowing his death. Could that have been something more than just a random dream? I don't know. But then again, the coincidences are from what i knew. It may have ended up being a profound experience he himself had of events and didn't pay attention to it. But to me, it was one coincidence... which is weak bc it can easily be said it was a coincidence. 

I haven't shared any of my medium experience, and i won't since i don't want to write a bunch, but these are experience with two coincidences that needed to happen for the experience to be what it is. I will explain this in my last category. 

So, strong experiences and/or profound have 3 or more coincidences that needed to happen. The Las Vegas one is three coincidences. The dreams, the feeling and voice, the touch of his head, him seemingly healing in that exact moment. Actually, that sounds like more than three doesn't it lol. The spinning necklace one was three. To spin it right, stop it, spin it left on command. The meditation one was six coincidences of me saying leave and at the same exact moment sounds happen. I've had one more profound experience that i never share, i hope that's okay, but i've had four in total. 

That is how i categorize these events. To me it blows my mind that i've basically won four lotteries bc for these experience to have happened exactly how they did is mind blowing rare. But can it happen... sure i guess. Although, than we get to my subjective view of it. The feelings i got, the things i saw in the moment. I don't know man, it's really hard for me to say these were just coincidence.

Sure the girl told me to tell them leave, but she didn't say i would hear sounds... but could i have imagined it. Sure possible. The Vegas one, he just healed on his own, sure, but what the hell was all that before it through my experience leading to him healing by himself... why would i have exact premonitions just for an event he healed on his one... i don't know. The necklace one... the only explanation is i spun it myself subconsciously. But the thing is that's a lie, bc not only did i make sure i was ready and i wasn't twisting it, i know i didn't twist it... so again, i don't know, possible yes, but i would be lying to say i spun it. 

I've critically examined every event that has happened that was in the form of a spiritual experience. All i can say is my conclusion isn't they are all natural or supernatural... it's a big i don't know. Could it be something we having discovered yet? Could it be another spiritual realm? It could be many things, but i'll lastly say... i'm not the only one. Bc i've had these experience, i've sorta been obsessed with asking everyone i meet if they've had experiences. I've done this for years, which i think may set us apart if you've never experience anything why be curious or ask. In my years of asking though... i've heard some crazy stories. In my years of looking up all the comments people leave on the internet, i've seen some crazy story. All i can conclude is that they are lying or deluded.. but the thing is, i'm not, at least to any medical standard lol, but i'm not and i've seen some crazy things myself.

To me, that is overwhelming evidence of something. That is why i've never crossed over to atheism or just a one world natural everything follows one set of laws type thinking. Even philosophically, the chances of that being true in an infinite setting i would say is not favorable. But mainly, since i've experienced weird things, i'm more open to there being something. What that something is i can only guess. But i have found a monistic type of platform best answers these experiences bc it allows for multiple experiences that are subjective to the person experiencing them. It's interesting, and i hold it most favorable until i'm aware of something else. 
#115
Polytheist-Witch
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Why is your religion right, followed by 100 posts by atheists. LOL.
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#116
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Outplayz
Do i think the supernatural ones are more likely? I really don't know.

You do think the supernatural explination is more likely though, or at least you said you do. Have you changed your mind about that between post 58 and now?

To me it blows my mind that i've basically won four lotteries bc for these experience to have happened exactly how they did is mind blowing rare.

That seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how statistics works.

If I type a random 20 digit number I might come up with, for example, the number "50165390173904751803", I could also come up with the number "44444444444444444444".

Which of these outcomes is more likely from typing 20 completely random digits? I am not asking what the likelihood of each is, just which is more likely.

(If your name is not Outplayz then this question is not directed at you. Please do not answer until after Outplayz has answered.)


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@Discipulus_Didicit
You do think the supernatural explination is more likely though, or at least you said you do. Have you changed your mind about that between post 58 and now?
No, i would say i'm still torn bw both. Bc you can hear the stories i've told, but being there and feeling everything and seeing everything play out is a whole different story. By the way, certain experience i don't share are suppose to continue to happen. Bc these are experiences based off of what happens in my life. They've been consistent still... so it's an ongoing test with me. I'm keeping an open mind and trying to not let confirmation bias take over... but there are things that will happen in this life that should trigger my experiences. I'm curious if it will continue, that's why i don't share some experiences. I'm kinda mad scientist mode just waiting to see if they will happen again. 

Edit: One thing i'll add that i think you feel i'm leaving out... yes, i do favor the "supernatural" (whatever that means) explanations more at this point. 

Which of these outcomes is more likely from typing 20 completely random digits?
I'm horrible at math, so i'm tempted to google search this lol... but i'll answer the first thing i thought. If it is a random number generator, i would say they are equally just as likely. But if you put a human element into it, if the human is just typing randomly trying not to be repetitive, just like a machine would be, then again they are both equal. But if it is a human just typing, not really thinking of being random, i think the 4's would come up more often depending on the person. They may get tired of typing random numbers quicker and just decide to press the same button over again. Or, it could be a human that hates pressing the same number, therefore the other one is more likely to show up. But randomly, like a machine, i'd say both are equal. 
#118
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@Polytheist-Witch
Atheism is a religion. They put just as much thought and energy into trying to convince everyone that their (lack of God) is the God as religious people do. The truly areligious are the ones who really don't give either the time of day 
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@KingArthur
Yeap
#120
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@KingArthur
Atheism is a religion

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in one particular kind of claim. A lack of belief in a claim is not the same as endorsing the opposite or indeed any position. There are religious atheists. Toaists and some buhdists among others. Is your contention that these individuals have two religions?