The most I can make of your criticism is that omnipotence by it's strictest definition is the wrong term to use for God. However the entire discussion so far has been about semantics, which isn't a particularly useful focus for any discussion.
Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it?
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@ethang5
I thought I answered your question in post 39. The inability to do logically inconsistent things is a limit. The inability to do things outside ones nature is a limit. The idea of an object or being with absolutely no limits is logically impossible. Do you wish to reword your question? Have I been unclear somehow?
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@Smithereens
Lying is logically possible. If this omnipotent being cannot do that it cannot even do all logically possible things. How shall we adjust the definition now?
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@secularmerlin
It's not logically possible for a triomni God to lie, no. From the start you've been using a definition of omnipotence that makes no sense and nobody uses. Do you insist on that definition because semantically the word can imply 'all things logically impossible' as well?
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@secularmerlin
Answer me this, what do you think a Christian means when they suggest God is all powerful?
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@Smithereens
But lying is logically possible. Are you suggesting I am capable of a feet that an omnipotent being cannot reproduce?
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@secularmerlin
But lying is logically possible. Are you suggesting I am capable of a feet that an omnipotent being cannot reproduce?
Lying can't be done by an omnibenevolent being. You aren't one, so you can do it. Just like how ignorance is not possible for an omniscient being and absence is not possible for an omnipresent being.
That sir depends entirely on the christians you ask. Some may not have given it much thought and some may actually believe that their god can make an object that can never be moved and then go ahead and move it and some may think their god has limits but that those limits are beyond understanding. These are far from the only possibilities by the way.Answer me this, what do you think a Christian means when they suggest God is all powerful?
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@secularmerlin
I agree there's no consensus on what is meant by all powerful. Certainly it's never biblically defined so in the end who get's to say what the "reality" is?
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@Smithereens
Lying can't be done by an omnibenevolent being. You aren't one, so you can do it. Just like how ignorance is not possible for an omniscient being and absence is not possible for an omnipresent being.
So now our "omnipotent" being cannot do all logically possible things. The new definition "capable of all things that are logically possible" must be scrapped along with "able to do anything" what is the new definition we are to try?
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@Smithereens
Those discussing the matter get to decide what it means for the purposes of the discussion they are having which is exactly what we are engaged in doing right now.
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@secularmerlin
If you so easily accept that an omniscient God can't be ignorant, an Omnipresent God can't be absent and an omnibenevolent God can't be evil, why is it difficult to suggest that an omnipotent God can't be a contradiction?So now our "omnipotent" being cannot do all logically possible things. The new definition "capable of all things that are logically possible" must be scrapped along with "able to do anything" what is the new definition we are to try?
I don't see why definitions of terms are so impactful. If there is a God and he can't make square triangles, well, so what..?
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@secularmerlin
Those discussing the matter get to decide what it means for the purposes of the discussion they are having which is exactly what we are engaged in doing right now.
If you're coming up with definitions that rule God out of existence, then you've got your answer: God doesn't exist. Easy.
I have not accepted anything as yet. So far we are only defining terms.If you so easily accept that an omniscient God can't be ignorant, an Omnipresent God can't be absent and an omnibenevolent God can't be evil, why is it difficult to suggest that an omnipotent God can't be a contradiction?I don't see why definitions of terms are so impactful. If there is a God and he can't make square triangles, well, so what..?
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@secularmerlin
I thought I answered your question in post 39.
Amazing. My questions were in post 46.
The inability to do logically inconsistent things is a limit
That is what you keep asserting without support or definition.
The inability to do things outside ones nature is a limit.
That is what you keep asserting without support or definition.
The idea of an object or being with absolutely no limits is logically impossible.
That is what you keep asserting without support or definition.
Do you wish to reword your question?
No. Why would I reword questions you haven't answered?
Have I been unclear somehow?
Yes. And evasive. And dishonest. Ho-hum.
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@ethang5
A limit is in this context a thing that one is incapable of doing. In the cas3 of an immovable object it is a physical limit. In the case at a married bachelor it is a linguistic limit. One is tautalogical and one is actual. Both are limitations.How are you "limited" by the impossiblilty of you being a married bachelor?
Does that answer your question from post 46?
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@Smithereens
If you're coming up with definitions that rule God out of existence, then you've got your answer: God doesn't exist. Easy.
I have no evidence for or against the existence of some god(s) we can however dismiss certain god claims as logically impossible. Any object or being with no limits is logically impossible therefore we can dismiss god claims that include limitless power.
You wish to redefine omnipotence to get around this problem and so that is what we are attempting to do.
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@secularmerlin
How are you "limited" by the impossiblilty of you being a married bachelor?
A limit is in this context a thing that one is incapable of doing.
That is the most irrational definition of a limitation I have ever seen. As smithereens said, if you are going to use irrationality, logic is worthless to you. Until you are logical, we are speaking different languages.
In the cas3 of an immovable object it is a physical limit. In the case at a married bachelor it is a linguistic limit.
What is a "linguistic limit"? What does it limit you from?
One is tautalogical and one is actual. Both are limitations.
Neither is logical, and both are simply asserted by you.
Does that answer your question from post 46?
No. But don't worry. You aren't logical, and aren't prepared to be logical. So you might as well be speaking Greek.
It's heartening that you must be absurdly illogical to make your point. Neither I nor God's power have anything to fear from your irrational argument.
Thanks.
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@ethang5
How would you like to define limits if not as what any given being is incapable of? I would like to answer your question if I could but first we must be clear about our terms.
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@ethang5
you asked: What is a "linguistic limit"? What does it limit you from?
SM's example is that you can't be (or create) a married batchelor, no matter how powerful you are!
He's right of course - Creating a married batchelor is something not even a god can do.
I'd say this is all very silly! The writers of the bible were more interested in praising and flattering their god than giving an objective description. I am sure we have all described our WAGs as the most beautiful woman in the world- saying God is 'omni-whatever' was, I suppose exaggeration, or hyperbole or just plain old flattery.
I'm sure people know I am a hard-line atheist, but I wouldn't use the problem with the definition of 'omnipotent',to 'prove' anything because its obvious an entity does not have to posess literally infinite qualities to be a god. Nobody really understood infinity until the 19th century. I think the bible described god as omnopotent because they imagined Him as being so powerful He was 'practically omnipotent', but 'practically omnipotent' wouldn't look so good on the page! It would have ruined the Hallelujah Chorus for a start:
Hallelujah!
For the Lord God practically omnipotent reigneth;
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
The question has the built in assumption that the laws of logic cannot be violated. If the laws of logic cannot be violated, then God cannot not be God. Therefore, God cannot do anything that God cannot do.
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@Fallaneze
That makes me god, I can't do what I can't do.
That makes you exist
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@keithprosser
Your little drive by's are all just little pot shots at Christianity.
You make these silly little assumptions, and then build these elaborate arguments off them.
Your opinions are not fact, and how things seem to you is not necessarily how they are. But you behave as if they are.
SM's example is that you can't be (or create) a married batchelor, no matter how powerful you are!
Untrue slick. The question was, how is that a limitation? What is being limited? You said the whole thing is silly, and it is, but then you immediately attempt to use the silliness as support.
Can God create a non-created creation? It is all stupidity, but the stupidity is in the question, not in God's power. My experience has been that people pushing this stupidity are aware of the stupidity. As I know SM is. Note that I have to push him to answer questions before he answers, but then will answer only selected ones. And yet has not defined his terms, but keeps asserting them.
When pressed he goes into his passive "I don't understand" mode and asks more questions, dodging having to address his fake logic again.
As far as I'm concerned, the argument is over. SM is not willing to be logical, and I have no obligation to address illogic. This argument is for neophytes or low IQ sympathizers. I am neither.
Finally, the concept of infinity was laid out in the bible 6,000 years ago. You cannot revise history to fit your bias.
The people who create gods also create their god's capacities and when those capacities are proved to be self contradictory the believers get all bitter and twisted and revert to plan one ie abuse those smarter than them.
1892 days later
this was a fun debate
8 days later
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@linate
Would you define omnipotence? It means the ability to do anything but does it appeal to the laws of logic or no? (Meaning could god do something illogical, like making a round square)
Well he made metors right ?
And meteorites.
Let us now enter Gods head in the 6 days of creation.
His making biggggggggggggg mutha fucking rock like things.
Picture if you will,
God makes 100 stars. He thinks they will look real nice up in a dark sky.
So his making em and after each one he places it up in the , well sky .
( Now these little puppys move at like 60 / 80 miles a sec )
So he makes a star and pops it up above his head , whils still keeping a firm grasp, and his starts couning down ,
7
And a 6.
And a 5
And 4
And 3
And a 2
And . REALEASE.
And powwwwwwwwwww, of it goes.
He did this 100 times.
Then he looks up at his 100 stars and can bearly see them right.
So he goes, FUCK IT . I'll build 1000 more of these star things , then the sky will light up really cool loooking like.
1100 stars later .
God looks up to see his marvelous creation buttttttt. 1100 stars doesn't look like
what he expected.
Now he doesn't want to many of these star things . But he knows he needs to make more.
He fills a order for 10, 000 more. Stars .
Surely this will suffice.
He pops em up in to float around
so his now got 11,100 .
He crouches down and looks up at em and
Well
He isn't very impressed.
His like . ' fucking shit fucking stupid fucking floating rocks.
Now He knows 100,000 more stars would be way way to many.
Much to bright. He aint dumb.
So he fills a order for 50,000 more of these stars.
( you can see where this is going right? )
Small increments of stars to what ? 100 billion in our galaxy alone.
GODS TOP 10 "greatest loves " and or of most important things.
1. STARS...... God fucking loves stars right ?
Way way more then humans anyway.
Then it goes.
2. PUFFINS.....
And so on and so on.
I'll put up the other 8 at a later date.
Humans ain't even in the ( TOP 100 Of things of importance )
Anyway where was i.
GOD can lift heavy shit.
If God built the entire universe and all the other universe's right here.
Imagine what he built over there.
like .
Over there.
No, over. There.
Yeah.
Imagine what he built there.
I highly doubt god would of let that specific meteorites go at that specific time to wipe out most of his beloved.
Dinosaur range of animals.
I bet He still remember the smell of a brand new T-Rex straight of the factory floor.
You know that smell.
And also.
God can build a rock inside of a rock.
Sooooo. His good.
Oh and i forgot to mention that boys ain't allowed to kiss boys.
He wants us to know that ok.
Ok then
' kicks dirt '
later.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
WELL.
God is actually very very tiny.
The size of a particle.
I read this in a very very very tiny book.
And God cannot lifteth shit.
So he called in some electricians to install the lighting
And a bloke with a big machine to do the rocks and stuff.
And an ornithologist to deal with all the ground nesting seabirds.
He also invented quantum physics and can simultaneously exist everywhere.
Clever guy, but no good with big rocks.