An orthodox take on genesis.

Author: keithprosser

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#31
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@disgusted
It is human nature to think one's own country or people is the best!   The writers of the Hebrew bible certainly thought so - they were extreme chauvinists who had nothing good to say about any non-hebrew people or their gods.  Accordingly, the Hebrew were never beaten by a superior people;  they were only ever beaten as a punishment for displeasing their god.

The Hebrews - or their their yhwhist priests who wrote the bible - had no interest in anyone except themselves, considering them lesser beings not deserving of the same rights as Hebrews; hence the distinction between Hebrew and non-hebrew slaves etc. 

Hebrew priests conflated religious identity with racial identity, and that remains so even today - consider whether 'Jew' an ethnic classification or a religious one!

It is theoretically possible for a non-ethnic jew to be a convert to judaism, but in practice there are many obstacles to it and it is very rare indeed.  Anti-semistism is an indelible stain on humanity, but the Jews cared about racial purity.   We read how Ezra felt about it:

The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.” When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled.
...
Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel’s guilt. Now honour the Lord, the God of your ancestors, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives.”
The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: “You are right! We must do as you say.

(Ezra 9:1-3, 10:10-12)

Sad to say all people are prone to bigotry and hatred.  If we don't recognise that fact then racism and religious bigotry won't ever be defeated..

It may be that yhwh was thought to be the god of all, but yhwh's relationship with Hebrews/Jews and with Gentiles in the OT was not the same.
 


#32
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@rosends
Post 131 apparently not.
#33
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@keithprosser
Conversion to Judaism exists and has for a long time - it is difficult because Jews only want the most sincere and committed people, but also because Judaism does not see the need to convert in order to be connected to God. Judaism teaches that non-Jews who follow certain universal laws merit heaven and reward and whatever else we see as the advantage of connecting to God. The notion of a Noachide movement is proof positive that Judaism views God as a God of all, not just Jews.
#34
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@disgusted
I expect you meant post 31, not 131. If you meant 131, please explain.
Post 31 closes with an accurate statement: 
"yhwh's relationship with Hebrews/Jews and with Gentiles in the OT was not the same."

But that's not the question at hand.
#35
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@rosends

It may be that yhwh was thought to be the god of all,
Quote mining is such a dishonest tactic.
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#36
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@rosends
I think the effect of scripture is to define and fix doctrine and dogma;  a religion without a scripture can change by adopting ideas from outside, diluting its identity.   The ot is the first instance of an actual scripture,that is a text intended to be definitive.   There are writings from other cultures, but they appear to be legends and poems that are not definitive or binding.

A significant spect is that the first 4 commandments are concerned with blasphemy.   Previous law  codes - such as the Assyrian or Babylonian do not legislate about blasphemy at all.  Nor do we find in other ancient writings the same attempt to construct a coherent saga.  

I honestly believe the ot was created to define a jewish identity so it would not disappear.  As it was written by yhwist priests, the identity it promoted was a yhwhistic one,  which may or may not accurately represent the reality of hebrew culture.  There is plenty in the bible that implies the hebrews were not monolithically yhwhist as might first appear!  Time and time again we read how the Hebrews apostase, and how many of their kings were very bad yhwhists, or not yhwhist at all!  The exile gave the priests of yhwh the opportunity to shape the jews as they wanted.   To be a good jew in exile was to accept the yhwhists version of jewishness.   There is clear indication that not accepting it was dangerous for the exiled jew - they could be accused of blasphemy (effectively treason).  Of course that could only work if there was an 'offiicial', definitive statement of orthodoxy that the new scripture provided.


#37
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@disgusted
Yes, it is. What do you suggest is quote mining? I pointed to an accurate statement said in another message. Did I misrepresent that statement? Did I misquote it? Is there a context which I missed which makes the meaning of what I quoted different from what it seems to say outside of that context? You present the first half of the quote which I presented. Does that change anything in what I said or any conclusion that I drew? Do you have any actual content to present to support your claims?

I think that simply making accusations and not engaging when presented with evidence and support is a weak rhetorical strategy.
#38
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@keithprosser
I understand your statements and that they come from a certain approach to text. I happen to espouse a different approach so I see the text (its authorship, intent and utility) as quite different from how you do.

One quick question (without trying to hijack the thread): you write, "A significant spect is that the first 4 commandments are concerned with blasphemy."

What "first 4" do you mean? There are at least 3 different ways to understand "first 4" so I want to know where you are coming from.
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#39
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@rosends
1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy


#40
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@keithprosser
An interesting list, taking one vision of the first 4 of the 10 statements. As to the underlying feeling that all 4 have to do with "blasphemy", I would say that in the Jewish conception, the first 5 (though the 4 aren't exactly the same as the 4 you list) are, in a sense about offenses against God, though I don;t know if I would use the word "blasphemy".
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#41
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@rosends
I'm not always strict when I post because threads aren't formal debates.  But I can be very pedantic when I want to be!   

But if you look at the code of hammurabbi or other ancient codes there is next to nothing relating to religion.   Also other ancient writings don't seem intent on appearing realistic.  I don't think Babylonians were expected to accept, for example, the Epic of Gilgamesh as actual history.   I do think the writers of the pentateuch want it to be believed.


#42
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@disgusted
GENESIS ?   no ....wake up human pathetic MORONS......HYPNOSIS....= GENESIS......idiots

The Bible is a TOOL....a TOOL used to BRAINWASH and HYPNOTIZE weak minded humans into
slavery of some retarded CULT run by world class psychopath Parasite Vampires for power and control


Some idiot GOD shows up in a remote desert to talk with some wandering tribal imbecile ?   REALLY....
This idiot was MOSES.....waiting it out to meet his GOD ? as his so called people gave up on him and
worshipped idols and partied like they were at a Roman ORGY !   real FAITH !  what a JOKE

and all of the other GODS and Civilizations for thousands of years prior to the JEW GOD appearance..
are...well...LIES and cons !   only the JEW GOD matters...to the JEW of course others are not welcome !

1500 years after the JEW GOD farce...JESUS pops out of some illiterate JEW tribal girl ?   REALLY 

What happened to the MOSES GOD ?   on vacation.....So utterly STUPID this JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God
invented garbage truly is....

Like HEY HUMANS...this happened in the Middle East...now all must convert and OBEY ?   REALLY

Convert to JEWISM....no way...the JEWS do not assimilate....it's like a private club JEWS ONLY
Convert to JESUS.......of course ! Rome needed to expand its EMPIRE...what better way that the JESUS God hoax
Convert to ALLAH.......of course he is the only GOD that matters ?   what of the JEW and JESUS ?   EXTERMINATE......

So there it is 3 idiot totally made up GOD hoaxes for power and control...all 3 are TOILET TRASH....all LIES
All 3 are a fusion of other GOD stories over thousands of years in the Middle East...the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH
GODS are a total HOAX...a JOKE...invented by competing psychopaths....all at WAR...all cause WAR...

ALL 3 must go to MYTHOLOGY and be forgotten....as they have done to all the other GODS....

What goes around comes around.....JEW-JESUS-ALLAH  same as ZEUS and ODIN relics of a long gone era...

#43
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@keithprosser
It is human nature to think...........
Why did you address this to me?

#44
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Commandment #14 of the revised and unabridged 10 commandments says not to cook a baby goat in it's mother's milk, I have always abided by that commandment.