What do you believe?

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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#451
keithprosser
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@secularmerlin
@Fallaneze
Your beliefs can't change and were determined during the Big Bang. You can't make rational statements, just automated responses determined by physics and chemistry.

Another chemical reaction.
it can get confusing if you write precisely what you don't think is happening, Fal!

People at least have the strong illusion that they have free choices
That being the case If there is more to it it falls to you to demonstrate that.
it cannot be demonstrated - there is no way to know what it's like to be someone else.  But  I assume I am typical of human beings and it does feel as if I can make choices.   I feel that I could decide to take a break from DA and watch TV and even choose what channel to watch if I did.  I can't demonstrate that I feel I have power to make choices - I can only ask you to acknowledge the same feeling.

You may believe - at an intellectual level - that you do not make choices, but does it feel to you that you whether you answer this post or not was predetermined a billion years ago, and 'you' have no say in that 'choice'?  Is that what it feels like?

 


#452
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@keithprosser
it cannot be demonstrated
Then it is beyond human epistemology. 

#453
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@keithprosser
does it feel to you that you whether you answer this post or not was predetermined a billion years ago, and 'you' have no say in that 'choice'?  Is that what it feels like?
Can you describe how it would "feel" different regardless of which is the truth?

#454
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@Outplayz
....i don't know, but i think it would be a logical outcome of an infinite mind...
"infinite mind"?  Can anyone explain what that is? I dont think there exists any rational, logical common sense explanation.

#455
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@mustardness
No I did not. I understand the science enough to have a philosophical discussion but I would never be able to explain it as you just did. But reason or purpose, who could know. I just think it the most logical answer given what evidence we have.
#456
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@keithprosser
Good post.
#457
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@secularmerlin
It would feel like something else was remote-controlling you.

It feels like the self, not external forces, controls us.


#458
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@Fallaneze
I agree.  Moreover a leaf blowing in the wind doesn't feel it is in control... but if we and leaves are just being pushed around by external forces, what is going on to create the difference, if there is one?  
#459
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@keithprosser
Discoveries in quantum mechanics indicate that reality is indeterminate unless "measured." Maybe we are the players in a participatory universe.
#460
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@Fallaneze
It would feel like something else was remote-controlling you.
What does that feel like?

#461
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@secularmerlin
Are you saying there is no imaginable difference between the feeling of being remote-controlled by external forces versus having control of yourself?

#462
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@Fallaneze
SecMer is asking if you know what it feels like to be, say, a robot or a string puppet.

#463
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@keithprosser
No, I don't. That's also pretty good evidence that I'm not!

#464
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@Fallaneze
Are you saying there is no imaginable difference between the feeling of being remote-controlled by external forces versus having control of yourself?
What we "imagine" it would feel like is immaterial if we have no direct experience of being remote-controlled by external forces. In that case we do not know what it would feel like we can only imagine and I can absolutely imagine things that are not directly equitable to reality.
In fact without having experienced both how can you be certain which one you are experiencing right now 

#465
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@secularmerlin
If we have no direct experience of being "remote-controlled" by external forces then determinism is false.

I'm not certain of anything except the fundamental laws of logic, math, and experience of my existence.

#466
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@Fallaneze
If we have no direct experience of being "remote-controlled" by external forces then determinism is false.

Even If we do have direct experience of being "remote-controlled" by external forces I'm not sure we would know it unless we had also directly experienced freewill and those two experiences were observably different.
#467
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@secularmerlin
What differences would you expect to see between determinism and indeterminism? Clearly they are not one in the same. 
#468
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@Fallaneze
What differences would you expect to see between determinism and indeterminism?

I don't think we could readily differentiate between an uncauseed event and an event whose cause is not known to us. Indeterminism may not be demonstrable even if there is any.
#469
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@WyseGui
I just think it the most logical answer given what evidence we have.
Can you explain this evidence please. 

#470
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@mustardness
"infinite mind"?  Can anyone explain what that is? I dont think there exists any rational, logical common sense explanation.
Hey man, i've always liked you. I think you have a creative mind. But i'm not going to tell you my reasons if you don't critically analysis them with me. As soon as this turns to "you're wrong bc you have no rational, common sense, etc." thing, i'm done, okay. But i'm more than happy to explain some of my reasons. 

Reason one would be it seems that everything in this universe is one. Not only that, everything is a wave. It's almost like we aren't even here really. Now, i know when i say the point, "everything is made of the same thing, atoms," i'm leaving out a bit of other stuff. Everything observable is one. But we do have to account for dark matter and dark energy. I think energy happens within this matter, so i am assuming dark energy happens within dark matter. Without knowing what dark matter is, i'm speculating. But, i wouldn't be surprised if it follow that we are all still one. 

Edit: I realized i made a mistake, energy isn't within matter but it's own thing. But still i don't want to speculate about dark energy since we have no clue. But still, energy is part of a mind so it doesn't detract from my oneness hypothesis. 

My second reason is the wave function property of matter that we see. Like i said, it's almost like we aren't here. The scientists proposing an answer to some of this, including quantum entanglement, is the many worlds hypothesis. Well, that hypothesis is a watered down, very materialistic, version of what i'm saying. Bc not only do i think there are infinite of this reality happening, i think there are infinite realities happening of all kinds. 

Third reason is it answers some paradoxes. For instance the infinite regress paradox. If you have and are a manifestation of an infinite mind, you can travel instantaneously and manifest in any of these realities you imagine. It's faster than any travel we can do. Light speed takes how long to be on the moon, how long does your imagination take to get on the moon? Now, make your imagination an incorporeal mind a part of an infinite mind that has the ability to manifest itself as a corporeal being wherever it imagines itself to be. Infinite regress is a paradox bc it is using linear time or light speed to get from one end to the other. An infinite mind breaks linear travel in such a paradox. 

I really do hope you have a discussion with me and this wasn't all in vain.  
#471
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@secularmerlin
An event can't be uncaused. An 'event' would mean that the conditions prior to it were different but uncaused would mean eternally existent or non-existent.
#472
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@secularmerlin
Indeterminism is indicated in quantum mechanics.
#473
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@Fallaneze
An event can't be uncaused.
So far as we know this is true. Determinism is just a universe of cause and effect.
Indeterminism is indicated in quantum mechanics.
You mean because some quantum events do not appear to have a cause?
#474
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@secularmerlin
So is a universe with libertarian free will.

No, because the behavior of particles is indeterminate until observed.


#475
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@Fallaneze
because the behavior of particles is indeterminate until observed.
So particleshave freewill?

#476
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@secularmerlin
No, not as far as we know.
#477
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because the behavior of particles is indeterminate until observed.
So particleshave freewill?
No, not as far as we know.
So indeterminism is not actually indicative of freewill.
#478
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@secularmerlin
If there is indeterminism that means determinism is false. Your conclusion that free will does not exist hinges on determinism being true.

But I don't see a problem with determinism or indeterminism being true when it comes to free will. Mental causation is still cause but it's immaterial. So in that sense cause and effect is not violated. Even if reality is indeterminate until observed, cause and effect is still not violated. 

Here is the definition of determinism: "the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will." Here is another defintion: "Determinism, in philosophy, theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes." As you can see, "every effect has a preceding cause" does not affirm determinism.

Indeterminism: "the doctrine that not all events are wholly determined by antecedent causes."

So even under indeterminism, every effect can have a preceding cause. It is just the distinction that not every event is determined by a preceding causal chain.



#479
Fallaneze
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Never mind, most definitions of determinism are incompatible with free will. But it depends on which defintion of determinism and free will is being used.
#480
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@Fallaneze
So even under indeterminism, every effect can have a preceding cause. It is just the distinction that not every event is determined by a preceding causal chain.
How do we determine the difference between an event that is not determined by a preceding causal chain and one whose connection to a previous causal chain is not apparent to us? You have already pointed out that to the best of your understanding particles behave indeterminately and yet do not have freewill so this freewill thing you are discussing is not necessitated by indeterminism.