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@Ramshutu
Couldn't hurt. At the very least, it is a good thing to think of others besides the self.
Another classic: Intercessory Prayer and Efficacy
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@Mopac
I agree with both of those things, but do you think it affects what god chooses to do or not do? I don't have a 'problem' or objection to prayer for the faithful, but if you're talking about an all knowing, all powerful god, with a plan that spans all of time for each and every molecule...
Try it this way. Do you think god can change his mind? Or could god hear something from someone in prayer that he 'didn't think about' and suddenly say you know, you're right, I'm just going to skip that tsunami I was about to do.
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@Mopac
So, calling us all idiots and morons, murderous scum and those who aren't worthy to lick your boot doesn't hurt? It's all good? This is what you think of others.Couldn't hurt. At the very least, it is a good thing to think of others besides the self.
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@Mopac
We wouldn't have a problem if you kept it behind closed doors where it belongs.I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
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@Goldtop
Oh the irony.
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@Goldtop
Not his topic.
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@ludofl3x
Moses prays that God wouldn't destroy the rebellious Hebrews when they were wandering in the desert. There are many more biblical examples of prayer being used in scripture as a means of asking God for mercy. Examples of God saying that this is going to happen, and then holding off from doing it because of prayer.
So intercessary prayer is certainly scriptural.
Perhaps it atheists understood not every prayer is about asking for something you would get it but your too shallow and stupid.
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@Mopac
I'm not disputing that it's scriptural. I'm asking what the efficacy of it is, if God's already made some sort of plan for every molecule. If he has a plan for the cosmos, and that plan includes making you pray about something for his intercession, essentially it's not an intercession. It's going according to plan. Sorry I let Poly pollute this thread's original point, but that's the original question. Not is it scriptural: what's the point.
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@Goldtop
You keep making this claim, but that isn't really how I think.So, calling us all idiots and morons, murderous scum and those who aren't worthy to lick your boot doesn't hurt? It's all good? This is what you think of others.
And well, if I ever called you any of these things, I hope you accept my apology.
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@Mopac
He can't. He's here to be a bigot.
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@Mopac
Filthy liar, you've said that to a lot of folks here many times, that and much more vile content. And since, it's pretty clear you don't know how to think, it's indeed what you believe. It is the fiber of your very being.You keep making this claim, but that isn't really how I think.
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@Goldtop
As I said, if I ever called you these things, I hope you accept my apology.
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@ludofl3x
We Orthodox believe that God gave us the gift of free will. As that is the case, no, not everything has been determined already. We are responsible for our choices.
Well, that's boring, you say that to everybody. Incapable of coming up with anything new?He can't. He's here to be a bigot.
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@Mopac
That isn't the answer to the question. Free will is another issue. Can god be surprised? Is there anything god hasn't thought of? If the answers are "no", then intercessory prayer is a futile exercise, you can see that, right? Why do "you orthodox" (the second most annoying thing you say) pray?
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@Goldtop
Why truth works just fine.
Dad sees bottle is missing from bar, decides to punish kid for two months. That day kid comes home, hands dad bottle and apologizes. Dad gives him a month punishment for owning it. Not rocket science people.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I think you're responding to the wrong topic. I have no idea how what you wrote relates to anything in this topic.
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@ludofl3x
No, God cannot be surprised.
Intercessary prayer is still not a futile exercise. If someone asks you for prayer, and you pray for them, doesn't it mean something to them? If nothing else, the charity of the action makes it a good thing.
And I am in no way trying to diminish the efficacy of prayer. I myself have had my prayers answered, and they have been answered in front of witnesses who marvelled at how they were answered.
So what can I say? This isn't really something you can be scientific about. There is no way to test these things. Do I believe in prayer? I certainly do. I couldn't reasonably expect to convince you of what I am convinced of.
But there are other aspects of prayer that I am sure even you could hold on to and make sense of. One of the main purposes of prayer is to align the heart properly.
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@ludofl3x
Poor moron.
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@Mopac
So it was already gods plan to do what you requested and your request was unnecessary and meaningless. You prayed for your god to do what your god was already doing.
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@Mopac
No, God cannot be surprised.Intercessary prayer is still not a futile exercise. If someone asks you for prayer, and you pray for them, doesn't it mean something to them? If nothing else, the charity of the action makes it a good thing.And I am in no way trying to diminish the efficacy of prayer. I myself have had my prayers answered, and they have been answered in front of witnesses who marvelled at how they were answered.So what can I say? This isn't really something you can be scientific about. There is no way to test these things. Do I believe in prayer? I certainly do. I couldn't reasonably expect to convince you of what I am convinced of.But there are other aspects of prayer that I am sure even you could hold on to and make sense of. One of the main purposes of prayer is to align the heart properly.
Once again either you don't understand the topic, or simply refuse to engage it honestly. I didn't ask you if you believe in prayer, if telling someone you're praying for them is a nice thing to do for some people. Maybe I didn't ask it clearly enough, because the point of intercessory prayer is not to align the heart (whatever the fuck that means). The purpose is to have god INTERCEDE. You're saying he can't be surprised, which is another way of saying he already knows and has determined the outcome, and by that logic, your request for him to change his mind and alter his plan is pointless. If he was going to find your car keys or whatever anyway, you asking him to do so doesn't change that he was going to show them to you. If he was hiding your car keys to MAKE YOU ASK before showing them to you, you're still not interceding, you're operating according to his plan. I bet you won't tell us the whole story of how your prayers were marvelously answered in front of witnesses, but I invite you to do so.
Prayer, the kind you're talking about, is meditative prayer. Or, just plain meditation. No god required. Plenty of people meditate to 'align their hearts properly.'
And you can absolutely be scientific about prayer, studies have been done on it. You won't like the results.
It's been explained to you that prayer, even intercessory prayer, isn't always to get god(s) to change their mind. Prayer first and foremost is the act of engaging with and being humble to the being you are interacting with. Even if you think god(s) have a plan asking for something they might not have any intention of doing is still an act of faith and worship. And again as in the EXAMPLE I gave which seemed to difficult for you to understand god(s) can be swayed by acts of submission and faith. The Old Testament is full of examples. Sorry it's too much for you to get. Must be your too smart ot understand the basic religious concepts being presented.
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@ludofl3x
You are not part of the church, and you are an unbeliever. You really don't have any ground to stand on.
You are simply speaking about things you don't understand.
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@Mopac
You say that in a matter-o-fact way as if to say you have spent so much time around God that you know what his reaction is going to be in a given situation. Clearly, this is little more than an overactive imagination of a rotted mind.No, God cannot be surprised.
I myself have had my prayers answered, and they have been answered in front of witnesses who marvelled at how they were answered.
I can see that occurring with a room full of lunatics in a asylum. Was that in your church?
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@ludofl3x
simply refuse to engage it honestly
Nailed it!
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@Mopac
You are not part of the church, and you are an unbeliever. You really don't have any ground to stand on.You are simply speaking about things you don't understand.
Well, I used to be part of a church, but since it wasn't YOUR church, I was doing it wrong, but neither here nor there. I have the same amount of ground to stand on as you but you're still not even close to addressing the question. Which I ASKED BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU THINK IT WOULD WORK. If god never changes, and he's never surprised by any outcome because he planned all of time from beginning to end for each and every molecule in the universe, then why would praying to god have any practical effect on an outcome? He's going to do what he does one way or another.
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@Polytheist-Witch
It's been explained to you that prayer, even intercessory prayer, isn't always to get god(s) to change their mind. Prayer first and foremost is the act of engaging with and being humble to the being you are interacting with. Even if you think god(s) have a plan asking for something they might not have any intention of doing is still an act of faith and worship. And again as in the EXAMPLE I gave which seemed to difficult for you to understand god(s) can be swayed by acts of submission and faith. The Old Testament is full of examples. Sorry it's too much for you to get. Must be your too smart ot understand the basic religious concepts being presented.
Please look up the definition of INTERCEDE. And again, I believe as noted in the OP, this does not really apply to you at all, this discussion. Your prayers or chants or whatever you're doing are not the same as the ones being interrogated here. From post #1: "it's largely a monotheist / Abrahamic question." THe reason it makes sense in, say, Greek mytholgoy is because the pantheon of gods were not working toward a SINGLE VISION and weren't omniscient or omnipotent as the Abrahamic god is described. Therefore, asking for them to INTERCEDE, like when it wouldn't rain, made more sense, because maybe this god or that god had simply forgotten about your crops. According to Abrahamic believers, their god doesn't forget anything, doesn't ever make mistakes or oversights. The OT god functions like a superpowered greek or Roman god, so it might make sense to pray to THAT god to intercede, but the god of the NT is the one with the plan. Christians say they're the same god somehow, hence the question. Honestly, I cannot continue to walk you through every thought experiment I'm going to bring up. I'm trying to start conversations. You're trying to end them by being, basically, a miserable twat.