Liam Neeson Controversy

Author: Swagnarok

Posts

Total: 83
#31
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@DBlaze
This will probably hurt his career, and it should
I don't know if you said this on accident in the heat of the moment to sound agreeable, but his career should go through the roof for what he did. There should be more people like him. Not only did he willingly tell his story, he said he was wrong, got professional help, and grew. If only more people in society could do that this world just might be less shitty. He has my highest respect for what he did... unless of course, he has some nefarious reason why he did it to gain popularity and exposure... you never know with these people these days... but, he seemed sincere in his motivations to do this.  

#32
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
I thought it was well said too. What did you find wrong with it?  

If it's the free stuff thing... Using the word getting "Free stuff" isn't really what i get from this specific liberal concern. I think every person deserves freedom and the only way you can truly be free is if 1) you are trying; 2) if so, you should at least be able to live reasonably. At this point in our world, i think the people that "make it" are taking too much. I know the right says it's stealing since they deserve it (which i would argue). But it is also stealing from the people and their workers since without us they wouldn't have power, and without us they wouldn't have wealth. So it's stealing from both sides. From there the way i weigh it is which is worse. Take from the CEO so he makes a little less or don't and so what if the worker can't buy milk since he had to go to the doctor? Which is worse... i think stealing from the people is worse therefore i agree with the left on the income inequality stuff. 

However, i don't agree with the college stuff... health care we need to do something but just make it free across the board i don't agree with.. so i think income stuff might be our only disagreement. 
#33
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ResurgetExFavilla
You sound like Skepsikyma
#34
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Outplayz
 Every single person in this country who doesn't live in a self-sufficient cabin in the woods is culpable for murder, rape, theft on a colossal scale. 
you think that's true?
#35
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
Of course it's true. Our interventionista way of life requires a massive military conducting drone strikes killing at whim and enforcing economic embargoes that starve millions. No need for the pretext of innocence when you live in the wealthiest nation on the planet.
#36
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
Not at all. I read it as a metaphor/simile. Literally, you're right.. that's not true at all. Figuratively, i don't disagree. 

Edit: I shouldn't say "at all" though bc some elements of it is true literally, but as a whole... i do not agree in a literal sense. 
Topic's author
#37
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@Greyparrot
He's definitely not Skepsikyma. I don't know why anybody would think that. No way, no how. Nope. Just nope. The fact that they're exactly the same in every conceivable respect is but a mere technicality.
#38
ResurgetExFavilla
ResurgetExFavilla's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 627
3
2
7
ResurgetExFavilla's avatar
ResurgetExFavilla
3
2
7
-->
@Greyparrot

#39
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
Every single person in this country who doesn't live in a self-sufficient cabin in the woods is culpable for murder, rape, theft on a colossal scale. 
seriously?  you believe that? 
Do you believe that employees should be treated fairly and have a basic right to safe and humane working conditions?

they he says something about not doing something about it.....Trump was elected, he said he'd get us out of other countries and stop the wars etc,
This is apropos of nothing.  Please explain.

unfortunately the sheeple and lemmings want free stuff, which is never free, and government handouts, they want to government to take care of them.  That's not every single person, that's not me.
I see.  So, do you want to abolish social security?  Do you want to abolish corporate welfare?  Do you want to abolish farm subsidies?

"divides its citizenry in order to enrich a tiny, stratospherically wealthy caste of disloyal and amoral 'global citizens'.
this is true.
Well stated.
#40
DBlaze
DBlaze's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 318
1
1
2
DBlaze's avatar
DBlaze
1
1
2
-->
@Outplayz
You are right.  I agree that he deserves a great deal of praise for admitting this, but I have been in that position, and I have never thought once about just beating on someone because they were the same race as the person that committed the atrocity.  We'll see how it playzOut, Outplayz. 

But, just because I have never done that does not mean I don't have empathy for him and the situation he was in.  

Ultimately, I think it will hurt his career because Hollywood is relentless on these kind of things.  They are not forgiving, and agents will be very reluctant to suggest films for him.
#41
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
Do you believe that employees should be treated fairly and have a basic right to safe and humane working conditions?
aren't there already laws that provide that?  osha?  labor department etc.
how does that cause "murder, rape" ?  and how many murder and rapes are you responsible for?

Please explain.
his claim that people do nothing to change the situation is wrong, people protest like they did during Vietnam for instance and currently to get the U.S. out of foreign countries/wars Trump was elected (that was one reason anyway)

 do you want to abolish social security?  Do you want to abolish corporate welfare?  Do you want to abolish farm subsidies?
trying to ween the government addicts takes a lot of time and effort, just like most addictions, but first they generally have to hit rock bottom.  but yes those "programs" should but phased out and the control should be given over to the individual to run their own lives.

#42
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
Do you believe that employees should be treated fairly and have a basic right to safe and humane working conditions?
aren't there already laws that provide that?  osha?  labor department etc.
Excellent point.  So, do you purchase products and services exclusively from manufacturers who follow these rules?

how does that cause "murder, rape" ?  and how many murder and rapes are you responsible for?
The latest allegations out of Guatemala illustrate that Coke isn't doing enough to lean on its bottling companies to safeguard workers, or putting enough pressure on the Guatemalan government, which labor groups have accused of being behind an increase in attacks [death threats and murders of union members]. [LINK]

For a decade and a half, the big chocolate makers have promised to end child labor in their industry—and have spent tens of millions of dollars in the effort. But as of the latest estimate, 2.1 million West African children still do the dangerous and physically taxing work of harvesting cocoa. What will it take to fix the problem? [LINK]

In 1911, Zemurray conspired with Manuel Bonilla, an ex-president of Honduras (1904–07), and the American mercenary Gen. Lee Christmas, to overthrow the civil government of Honduras and install a military government friendly to foreign businessmen.

To that end, the mercenary army of the Cuyamel Fruit Company, led by Gen. Christmas, effected a coup d'état against President Miguel R. Dávila (1907–11) and installed General Manuel Bonilla (1912–13). The U.S. ignored the deposition of the elected government of Honduras by a private army, justified by the U.S. State Department's misrepresenting President Dávila as too politically liberal and a poor businessman whose management had indebted Honduras to Great Britain, a geopolitically unacceptable circumstance in light of the Monroe Doctrine. The coup d'état was consequence of the Dávila government's having slighted the Cuyamel Fruit Company [later, United Fruit Company, now Chiquita Brands International] by colluding with the rival United Fruit Company to award them a monopoly contract for the Honduran banana, in exchange for the UFC's brokering of U.S.government loans to Honduras.[11][14] [LINK]

Please explain.
his claim that people do nothing to change the [underlying brutal system] situation is wrong, people protest like they did during Vietnam for instance and currently to get the U.S. out of foreign countries/wars Trump was elected (that was one reason anyway)
ResurgetExFavilla actually says...

But instead of doing anything about it, we just look for the tiniest admissions of moral fault to pounce on, maintaining our own veneer of 'respectability' while refusing to criticize a brutal system.
Chanting, "bring our boys home" does absolutely nothing to change the underlying brutal system that causes these types of problems in the first place. [LINK]

 do you want to abolish social security?  Do you want to abolish corporate welfare?  Do you want to abolish farm subsidies?
trying to ween the government addicts takes a lot of time and effort, just like most addictions, but first they generally have to hit rock bottom.  but yes those "programs" should but phased out and the control should be given over to the individual to run their own lives.
Without programs to help "level the playing field" for the disadvantaged, the "advantaged, stratospherically wealthy caste of disloyal and amoral global citizens" will basically squeeze the life out of everyone and anyone who is unable to compete at their level.  They will use every possible opportunity to pit the little people against each other by fomenting fear and distrust among them. [LINK]

"divides its citizenry in order to enrich a tiny, stratospherically wealthy caste of disloyal and amoral 'global citizens'.
this is true.
I'm not sure how you can agree with this statement and yet maintain that the government shouldn't do anything to assist the disadvantaged.
#43
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
So, do you purchase products and services exclusively from manufacturers who follow these rules?
nope, but I don't have control over what other countries do or don't do.

Chanting, "bring our boys home" does absolutely nothing to change the underlying brutal system that causes these types of problems in the first place.
voting or revolution, take your pick.

the government shouldn't do anything to assist the disadvantaged.
what are suppose to be "safety nets" are now entitlements, addictions, way of life.
you don't trust charities and wealthy philanthropists to step up and take care of those in needed?  but you trust the government to do so? yeah some are scams, the government is incompetent blah  blah blah but the point stands, people were taken care of before these programs existed.  The Amish don't typically use any of these services so it can be done.

what happens in other countries, is it the fault of the ones taking advantage and the ones allowing it to happen, I'd say more so one than the other.  Regardless I'm not Mother Teresa and I don't think anyone here can make that claim either.

I wasn't around in (1912–13)

the rich run the world that's how it is and they mostly don't care about anything else, any poor people in the U.S. government?  any considered middle class that have been in for 20+ years?

I do try to buy products where the workers are treated fairly etc whenever possible, I don't by Nike brand for instance.  If you watch Shark Tank the free market (capitalism) is allowing entrepreneurs to create business based on many things that "give back" to the workers or society.  This is becoming a trend and will continue to grow so long as the government doesn't stop it with regulations and other ways to manipulate the business.

the world is ending in 12 years so wgaf?

#44
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@DBlaze
Yeah i'm sure it'll hurt him in that regard... it's sad that it will. Bc if he can't be redeemed then who can? There has to be a redemption standard for people bc this is just getting ridiculous. And, i think it's getting ridiculous to the detriment of the left. Liberals will continue to loss as long as most the country views them as the SJW "i will ruin your life for something you did at 17" type people. A lot of people don't like this sort of mentality... it seems the right is mainly the ones that dislike it... but there are many people on the left that aren't far left and dislike it too. Imagine, who are the people that voted for Obama twice that voted for Trump... these are the people that aren't putting up with the lefts current bullshit. If they can't fix it... Trump is guaranteed another win. I'm centrist so i'm really interested in both sides and it helps me clearly see each's flaws. The left could have a very powerful message if they didn't eat themselves so much. All i know is whoever has the more populist message will win... the left is suppose to have that message down more so... but with this SJW crap, they will go nowhere.  
#45
DBlaze
DBlaze's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 318
1
1
2
DBlaze's avatar
DBlaze
1
1
2
-->
@Outplayz
So, where to stand on abortion again?  I think this is the biggest issue.  And this is where the SJW separates themselves.

I don't think there are any leftists out there that are pro-life, but I do believe there are quite a few out there on the right that are pro-choice, I am one of them.  I think the left adopts the feelings and the mentality of the left because they believe in a woman's right to choose, and anyone else who doesn't is crazy, so everything else they believe must be crazy.  I do think this is the same of the right with some people too, but not as high a percentage... I could be wrong.     


If it came out that Neeson agreed to an abortion back when he was 17, the right would have had his head as well. The pro-choice right would have just kept their mouth shut.
#46
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@DBlaze
I think it's only the far left that believes in late term abortions. My personal opinion is that abortions shouldn't be done at the point the baby has brain activity. That's how i define death of a human so it is logical to make that also the point where life begins. I think a lot of liberals agree with my version. However, i think brain activity starts at first trimester (12 weeks or so) so i think the cutoff should be there... some others think it's when the spine is connected to the brain activity which is second trimester (where it can feel pain). I don't know which one is more popular, however i think the more reasonable people can be convinced of my view. But, other than that... i think it's a low number of people on the left that believe in late term abortions or at least the minority. Which people i believe are clearly wrong. But also... i think it's clearly wrong not to allow abortion for a variety of reasons. I think the parties should work together and comprise to bring it down to at least 12 or 14 weeks. 
#47
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@DBlaze
So, where to stand on abortion again?  I think this is the biggest issue.  And this is where the SJW separates themselves.

I don't think there are any leftists out there that are pro-life, but I do believe there are quite a few out there on the right that are pro-choice, I am one of them.  I think the left adopts the feelings and the mentality of the left because they believe in a woman's right to choose, and anyone else who doesn't is crazy, so everything else they believe must be crazy.  I do think this is the same of the right with some people too, but not as high a percentage... I could be wrong.     

If it came out that Neeson agreed to an abortion back when he was 17, the right would have had his head as well. The pro-choice right would have just kept their mouth shut.
Well stated.
#48
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
So, do you purchase products and services exclusively from manufacturers who follow these rules?
nope, but I don't have control over what other countries do or don't do.
You only need to be able to control which products and services you pay for yourself.

Chanting, "bring our boys home" does absolutely nothing to change the underlying brutal system that causes these types of problems in the first place.
voting or revolution, take your pick.
Voting with your dollars is also an option.

...the government shouldn't do anything to assist the disadvantaged.
what are suppose to be "safety nets" are now entitlements, addictions, way of life.
Under Clinton, welfare reform limited the amount of time people could stay in the program and made quantifiable check lists of requirements that measure progress.

you don't trust charities and wealthy philanthropists to step up and take care of those in needed?
Contrary to popular perception, charities are only required to use 7% of their funds to actually help people.  This means that in most cases, 93% of your money is actually going to run the organization itself.  This does not seem particularly efficient.

but you trust the government to do so? yeah some are scams, the government is incompetent blah  blah blah but the point stands, people were taken care of before these programs existed. 
Private organizations and philanthropists can pick and choose who and when and how they are going to "help" people.  Government programs have stricter guidelines regarding who they can help and when and for how long.

The Amish don't typically use any of these services so it can be done.
The Amish are not a model for modern society.

what happens in other countries, is it the fault of the ones taking advantage and the ones allowing it to happen, I'd say more so one than the other.  Regardless I'm not Mother Teresa and I don't think anyone here can make that claim either.
Are you suggesting a "sink or swim" model is preferable?  Mother Teresa didn't do much of anything to "help" people.  She mostly just watched them die.

I wasn't around in (1912–13)
Do you know anyone who buys bananas?

the rich run the world that's how it is and they mostly don't care about anything else, any poor people in the U.S. government?  any considered middle class that have been in for 20+ years?
Do you think anything can be done to fix this "problem"?

I do try to buy products where the workers are treated fairly etc whenever possible, I don't by Nike brand for instance. 
Good onya mate!

If you watch Shark Tank the free market (capitalism) is allowing entrepreneurs to create business based on many things that "give back" to the workers or society.  This is becoming a trend and will continue to grow so long as the government doesn't stop it with regulations and other ways to manipulate the business.
Yes, it appears that more and more people are considering the broader implications of where they spend their dollars.

the world is ending in 12 years so wgaf?
Of all the ways we reassure ourselves, the least comforting is this, "it's already too late". [LINK]
#49
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
do you think the people who work in terrible conditions for low pay would be better off if we didn't buy their products?

(the world ending in 12 years was a joke btw)

term limits #1

tariff and trade all need to be on a level playing field, say what you will about Trump but alt east he's trying to do something compared to the nothing that has been done.
#50
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
do you think the people who work in terrible conditions for low pay would be better off if we didn't buy their products?
Probably not.  But if you buy from a company that pays a living wage and complies with health and safety standards, presumably those workers will be better off.

(the world ending in 12 years was a joke btw)
Well, that's a relief.

term limits #1
Please elaborate.

tariff and trade all need to be on a level playing field, say what you will about Trump but alt east he's trying to do something compared to the nothing that has been done.
Tariffs do nothing to improve conditions for workers.
#51
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts


#52
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
here's the thing it's not the responsibility of the U.S. to save the world, other countries tax the fk out of imports basically forcing it's citizens to buy their own good

how would buying products from Venezuela help their workers or are their workers paid and treated adequately?  How about Mexico?

term limits for congress, all elected positions

I was quoting AOC aka Nostradumbass
#53
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
that Tee shirt is pure gold.  Heard she's getting like a 10 million movie deal, dam capitalism.
#54
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
here's the thing it's not the responsibility of the U.S. to save the world, other countries tax the fk out of imports basically forcing it's citizens to buy their own good
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.  Buying from criminals promotes crime.  Just because some countries erect barriers to international trade does not in any way imply that it is an ideal policy for anyone else to emulate.

how would buying products from Venezuela help their workers or are their workers paid and treated adequately?  How about Mexico?
The reports key findings include:

  •  Out of a total of 141 countries, the number where workers faced arbitrary arrest and detention increased from 35 to 44, and included countries such as Spain and Brazil.
  •  In almost 60 per cent of countries, certain types of workers are excluded from their fundamental labour rights.
  •  Unionists were murdered in 11 countries, one up from last year, including 22 deaths in Colombia alone.
  •  Seventy per cent of countries have workers with no right to strike.
  •  Two thirds of countries deny workers collective bargaining rights.
  •  More than half of countries in the survey deny workers access to the rule of law. [LINK]
term limits for congress, all elected positions
Good idea.

I was quoting AOC aka Nostradumbass
Thanks for clearing that up.
#55
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
how would buying products from Venezuela help their workers or are their workers paid and treated adequately?  How about Mexico?

It won't lol. People can't depend on other nations to clean their own house.
#56
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
I guess what I'm asking is given the government structure of these countries I don't see a realist way consumers can have a positive net effect.  It's a catch 22, those people would be worse off w/o the crappy wages and jobs.  Are there actual businesses in these countries that are better in any appreciable way?  Since there are poor in every country, the U.S. citizens should only buy U.S. products until everyone isn't poor.
#57
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
I guess what I'm asking is given the government structure of these countries I don't see a realist way consumers can have a positive net effect.  It's a catch 22, those people would be worse off w/o the crappy wages and jobs.  Are there actual businesses in these countries that are better in any appreciable way?  Since there are poor in every country, the U.S. citizens should only buy U.S. products until everyone isn't poor.
On the one hand you say that "it's not the responsibility of the U.S. to save the world" and then on the other hand you say "what about all the poor people?".

What I'm saying seems pretty simple. 

(IFF) you value human rights (THEN) don't do business with companies that violate human rights.

(IFF) you don't value human rights (THEN) abolish OSHA and minimum wage laws to create a "level" playing field.
#58
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
It’s also the case that there are plenty of skilled labor jobs being outsourced to foreign countries. The loss is not only to people with minimal job skills.

A problem for those Americans who are impoverished, and might take minimal skill jobs is that it is now much harder to get jobs of this type. When President Clinton enacted the Welfare to Work plan in the 1990s, he was attempting to encourage people to get back to work so as to reduce government spending in welfare. Unfortunately, with fewer jobs available for unskilled workers, people may find themselves in exceptional poverty. Poverty does not benefit the US economy since it reduces consumer spending and tax revenues.

There is another “side” to the issue of outsourcing that needs to be addressed. Not all people in other countries economically benefit from outsourced jobs, and some companies aren’t dedicated to providing humane working conditions. Outsourced work may be performed by children, or in inhumane working conditions. Abuses of foreign employees might not benefit US trade or political relationships. [LINK]
#59
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Swagnarok
Is there a path to redemption? [LINK]
#60
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
while the welfare to work was a good theory the implementation was predictably half assed, no surprise there.

how do you control companies in other or working in other countries, it's the "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" kind of thing.  the U.S. could invade or overthrow the current government and replace it with a democratic republic,  wouldn't that benefit the citizens in the best and long term way?
obviously no one really cares enough to go to that extreme.

I need (as opposed to a want) clothes, what manufacture produces clothes that are 100%, fabric etc socially acceptably produced?  And lets keep it real, I would never pay $150 for jeans for example.