If you're comparing two countries, it should probably be a one to one comparison...

Author: Savant
Israel
palestine

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#1
Savant
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I've seen a good number of moderates say they are pro Palestine but anti Israel, meaning pro Palestinian populace but anti Israeli government. Comparing countries on these terms basically means nothing, because you can hold governments responsible for a lot more than a collective populace. Pretty much every government has committed human rights violations, likely recently. But a nation's populace includes children, and you can't blame them for much.

So obviously, that's not a one to one comparison. By that standard, most people are pro-Germany and anti-US regarding World War II, since the German populace included children and Holocaust victims, while the US government was bombing civilians and locking the Japanese in internment camps. But if you flip it and compare the US populace to the German government? Suddenly the US looks a lot better.

I know we use [country x] as shorthand for the government of that country and not everyone in it, but at this point people need to start specifying what they mean if they're going to switch back and forth in the same sentence.
#2
TheGreatSunGod
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@Savant
I've seen a good number of moderates say they are pro Palestine but anti Israel, meaning pro Palestinian populace but anti Israeli government.
Yes, many people hate government of Israel. No surprise there.

Comparing countries on these terms basically means nothing
Strawman, as the above wasnt even a comparison between two countries, but a position on the Israeli government. Do you think that country = government?

Pretty much every government has committed human rights violations
And this argument proves... what exactly?
#3
cristo71
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@Savant
What I have observed is that moderates critical of Israeli government try to obfuscate the meaning of “anti Zionism.” Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people should have a homeland of their own. To be against that is to be for the elimination of the state of Israel. But many wish to subtly redefine anti Zionism as “being critical of Israeli government.” I mean, many Israelis are critical of their own government. So, when Palestinians declare their anti Zionism (I.e. wish for the destruction of Israel), lefties in western nations  wish to reframe this sentiment as “the Palestinians are just being critical of Israeli government, and understandably so.”

They wish to deny what is actually at stake for the nation of Israel— its very existence.
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#4
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@TheGreatSunGod
Strawman, as the above wasnt even a comparison between two countries, but a position on the Israeli government
Then why just say "Israel" and "Palestine" without specification? It's unnecessarily vague. You could be referring to the Israeli government or the Palestinian government or both or neither.
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#5
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@cristo71
Jewish people should have a homeland of their own
And "homeland" will lend itself to all sorts of interpretations, from a Jewish-only ethnostate to a country with religious freedom where Jews aren't persecuted. Expect others to pick the least charitable interpretation.
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@Savant
Then why just say "Israel" and "Palestine" without specification?
Because its obvious? When people talk about these issues, they usually talk of crimes commited by Israel government and military. Sure, those are great part of Israel, but not whole Israel.
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#7
Savant
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@TheGreatSunGod
When people talk about these issues, they usually talk of crimes commited by Israel government and military
Some people talk about crimes committed by Hamas (the government of Gaza)...
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@Savant
Some people talk about crimes committed by Hamas (the government of Gaza)...
Sure, Hamas commits crimes maybe. Does that mean crimes of Israel's government are justified? Does it mean Israel military has a right to burn and shoot civilians, rape prisoners, many of who are children? Go ahead, put your logic in premises here, so we see what we end up with. The crime isnt a crime if more governments do it?
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#9
Savant
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@TheGreatSunGod
So if someone says "I support Israel but don't support Palestine" or vice versa, how do you know which government they are talking about?
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TheGreatSunGod
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@Savant
So if someone says "I support Israel but don't support Palestine" or vice versa, how do you know which government they are talking about?
You usually ask them what they mean. Not all people use same meanings of words. If someone says "I support Israel, but not Palestine", I dont automatically assume he holds position that all Palestinian children have no right to exist, or that Palestine should be erased. Likewise, when someone says "I dont support Israel", I dont assume he means all Israel citizens are guilty and should be killed. Again, you are here arguing against a position which I am not sure if anyone even holds on this site, which probably wouldnt even be allowed to debate anyway.
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#11
Savant
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@TheGreatSunGod
You usually ask them what they mean.
Not always feasible. Could be someone with millions of followers posting on X, for example. Soundbites don't tend to lend themselves to reasonable discussion.

you are here arguing against a position which I am not sure if anyone even holds on this site
I'm arguing that they're being unclear and not really making a fair comparison.
#12
zedvictor4
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@Savant
@TheGreatSunGod
Freedom of thought currently allows us to hold seemingly contradictory points of view.

Freedom to air those views is somewhat more tenuous these days.


I personally, support both Israel and Palestine, whilst simultaneously not supporting either Israel or Palestine.

Have I made myself clear?
#13
TheGreatSunGod
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@Savant
Not always feasible
You can get a strong hint from their other words. Besides, if someone isnt available for debate at all and just says "I oppose Israel" and nothing else, then there is no point of even focusing on their words this much when you cant even debate them or talk to them. There are billions of people out there making all sorts of claims. When someone says that he hates Elon Musk, I dont automatically assume he wants to kill him. So again, if someone just says "I oppose Israel", you cant really make assumptions about what he means.

I'm arguing that they're being unclear and not really making a fair comparison
Again, there is no comparison being made. Israel government is bad. Palestinians in most cases dont deserve to be treated in such a horrible way. So its very fair to say that person opposes Israel's government and supports rights of Palestinians, or at least majority of Palestinians. The only way you can disagree with that statement is if you say that Israel's government isnt bad or that majority of Palestinians dont deserve any rights.
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TheGreatSunGod
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@zedvictor4
I personally, support both Israel and Palestine, whilst simultaneously not supporting either Israel or Palestine.
Do you use law of identity and law of non-contradiction?

Because "support" used the first time might mean something different than when used second time. But if it has same meaning, then how is that not just a contradiction?
#15
zedvictor4
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@TheGreatSunGod
Well, this national identity thing ain't going away any time soon, so one has to run with it.

And neither is human beings  killing each other in the name of nationalism going to abate anytime in the foreseeable future, so we must run with that too.

Therein lies a seemingly contradictory conundrum.

We pick sides and condemn violence, whilst simultaneously picking a side and justifying their violence.