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@TheGreatSunGod
More sex?
Yeah, that one stopped me, as well. Particularly when radicals can't even decide what's what, gonad-wise.
Liberation Day is here
Posts
Total:
133
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@Double_R
My response is that the idea of protecting local businesses via tariffs of the sort Trump is implement is deeply misguided since the world is far more complex than that.
So your argument is "world is complex"? Okay.
Today, Trump announced the largest tax increase in the history of this country.
Trade war with the entire world.
To think, he ran on a promise to bring down prices, and he said he would do it "day one".
Hardest hit will be his base, the rural areas are the most fucked, you MAGA guys are SUCKERS!
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@Double_R
You don't have to give me anything genius, if the trade didn't benefit you then you wouldn't have engaged in it.
Oh, so now your position is that Americans can choose to not buy tariffed goods, thereby not increasing the prices of the things they choose to buy. Well done sir. Very well done. We can now live by your maxim:
You don't have to pay any Tariff, genius, when the trade doesn't benefit you then you won't have engaged in it.
Very well done, sir.
Alright, kiddo, let's talk about something fun, like buying toys! Imagine you love toy cars. You can buy a cool red car from your local toy store, or you can order a blue one from a faraway country. Now, let's say the grown-ups in charge decide that if you buy the blue one, you have to pay extra money. That extra money is called a tariff.
Now, here’s the thing, nobody is forcing you to buy the blue car. If you don’t want to pay extra, you can just buy the red one. Simple, right? That means the price of the red car doesn’t change just because there’s a big fee on the blue one. You’re not buying the blue one, so that extra money doesn’t affect you at all!
Some people get really confused about this. They think that if one thing gets more expensive, then everything will suddenly cost more. But that’s silly! If the blue car costs way too much, you just say, “No thanks,” and get the red car like you always did. Your piggy bank stays safe, and you still get to play with a cool car.
Now imagine someone comes along and says, "But wait! The toy store will see that the blue car is super expensive now and raise the price of the red car too!" That doesn’t make sense! If they make the red car too expensive, you might just stop buying cars at all, and they’d lose customers and market share. The toy store still wants to sell cars, so they don’t just raise prices whenever they feel like it!
The same thing happens with food, like chicken. America grows almost all of its own chicken, so when the grown-ups put big fees on chicken from faraway places, it doesn’t really change anything for you. You’re already buying American chicken, and that chicken isn’t affected by the fee. The farmers don’t suddenly say, “Hey, let’s make chicken cost more just because!” That’s not how selling things works.
Some people get mad at tariffs and orange things just because they don’t like the person who put them in place. But being mad doesn’t change how things actually work. If you don’t want to pay a tariff, just don’t buy the thing with the tariff! Nobody is making you. It’s as simple as choosing the red car instead of the expensive blue one. So next time someone tells you tariffs make everything more expensive, just smile and say,
“Not if I don’t buy it!” And then go enjoy your tariff free chicken nuggets. 🍗🐔🚗
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@Sidewalker
I approve of taxing foreign supporters and rewarding American patriots. Buy American. Source American. Let's make "insourcing" a thing again. Let's see what a country can look like when Americans work to help other Americans first.
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@TheGreatSunGod
I noticed the far-left dropped the talking point that Trump wants to help the rich after he took a hammer to the wealthiest wall street investors supporting foreign imports.
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@Greyparrot
Don't be an idiot. For every manufactured good with the same cost base, for example, a 10% tariff on the foreign good will result in a 10% price increase on that foreign good in America. And a 10% tariff on the same foreign good, will result in a 9% increase on the comparable good made in America. Congratulations, you have just raised the price for that good sold to all Americans. Good going!
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@Greyparrot
No, they are not. While they may be exaggerating in regards to American products with no comparable imports subject to tariffs, you our only considering the direct effects, and not the obvious wider effects. You are being equally dishonest in support of your agenda.
So, America does not imports eggs or chickens, using your example. Therefore, we would not expect to see a price increase on eggs and chickens as a direct result of tariffs (i.e., chickens and eggs aren't imported and subjected to tariffs anyway). However, suggesting that American products which may be unexposed to foreign competition are in anyway immune from the effects of tarrifs is both wildly incorrect and intellectually dishonest. The indirect, derivative inflationary effects of tariffs will spread throughout the economy as a whole - like waves emanating from a drop of water into a pond. The cost of replacing the trucks delivering eggs and chickens, has increased 25%. The price increase on foreign manufactured goods and raw materials will increase demand for comparable American made replacements. So, Americans will not only have to endure the direct price increases related to tariffs, but also the derivative increases related to the new (and instant) artificial supply scarcity that comes with these tariffs. It's not some cases of American manufacturers sitting around with nothing to do and happy for the new work to fulfil their capacity. Remember, your argument is that the trade imbalance has already run most of these small American manufactured goods companies out of business. The only manufacturers in America still capable of running are already running at near capacity without any tariffs. Add by imposing these tariffs you have just increased their demand by, what I'm assuming maybe, close to 100%. They don't have the capacity too quickly increase their production to meet this new existing total demand. And all that tariff money?... That went into the federal government's coffers. The American manufacturers, faced with this impossible-to-satisfy demand imbalance, don't even have the cash to invest in expanding their production capacity. These little cash they may have had before has now been sucked up into their wider derivative cost exposure - driven by the tariffs overall. And this results in price increases - from whatever POV you choose - to the American supply chain, and all the way down to the American consumer.
I'm not saying that this tariff ploy won't be successful , or even work at all. That it has not worked in the past, is not necessarily an indicator of it's potential for success today. I am definitely saying, however, that engaging in this policy (with this scope and at this speed) is significantly reckless behaviour. I am also saying that your cavalier tone in dismissing other people's well-founded concerns for the effects of these tariffs on the wider economy belies your actual intent - to rabble-rouse political support for a breathtakingly risky set of policies, and to assuage complex concerns using simplified explanations. While these reckless policies are a matter of bad political leadership - and we're talking of Nero proportions - your ramshackle defence lacks intellectual probity. It is apparent to me, from your other writings, that you not only know better, but that you can do better. Please. I implore you. Please.
I don't know if these tariffs, and their accompanying strategy, will be successful or not. I hope like hell they are.
We are standing on the beach, waiting for the tsunami.
I hope like hell they are!
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@J.A.Prufrock
Don't be an idiot. For every manufactured good with the same cost base, for example, a 10% tariff on the foreign good will result in a 10% price increase on that foreign good in America. And a 10% tariff on the same foreign good, will result in a 9% increase on the comparable good made in America. Congratulations, you have just raised the price for that good sold to all Americans. Good going!
Why?
All else equal, the demand would go down along with supply.
The only reason it wouldn't is if domestic production was lower than foreign production, in other words: They're building the stuff we use. i.e. a trade deficit in real value.
That is the problem. That is why all our stuff is made in China.
That is why the manufacturing in the western world is a shadow with a few exceptions such as automotive and aeronautical. As I have said before and recently: The solution to not building stuff is to build stuff, not to refuse to buy stuff.
Protectionism doesn't solve the underlying problem: Their production is more efficient than ours.
The other critical question to ask is: What the hell are we 'giving' them in return? The answer is basically they're being manipulated into it with threats of force (petrodollar, CIA starting a war or something anywhere that doesn't want to play the game).
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@J.A.Prufrock
For every manufactured good with the same cost base, for example, a 10% tariff on the foreign good will result in a 10% price increase on that foreign good in America. And a 10% tariff on the same foreign good, will result in a 9% increase on the comparable good made in America. Congratulations, you have just raised the price for that good sold to all Americans.(who choose to buy foreign sourced crap despite the price because they hate America)
Fixd.
These investors don't even have the cash to invest....
They do. They can return their overseas investments and become reformed patriots. America has plenty of cash, just not in the country. That's gonna change.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Their production is more efficient than ours.
And now you touched on the huge elephant in the room. That elephant that consistently ranks USA 26th on the economic freedom index. The very reason why the public demands DOGE. Because the cost of doing business in America is too damn high. Government doesn't want to fix the manufacturing problem because it will reform the crony way government controls business. And we can't go back to a time where the government was not a partial stakeholder in all private local manufacturing businesses.
Or can we?
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@TheGreatSunGod
So your argument is "world is complex"? Okay.
I gave you 9 paragraphs in post 33 explaining my argument. If that's all you got out of it then I see no reason to waste any more time trying to explain anything to you.
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@Greyparrot
You don't have to give me anything genius, if the trade didn't benefit you then you wouldn't have engaged in it.Oh, so now your position is that Americans can choose to not buy tariffed goods, thereby not increasing the prices of the things they choose to buy. Well done sir.
I'm starting to think I shouldn't even be making fun of you.
That snippet was regarding a hypothetical ham and cheese sandwich trade, I was taking you back to kindergarten to explain what trade is and why people engage in it.
So no, that's not my position. If you'd like to know my position read the many posts I've written in this thread explaining it.
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@Double_R
I'm used to being around people that make fun of things they do not understand. Don't feel bad.
Luddites and Malthusians will always be with us.
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@Greyparrot
@Double_R
And now you touched on the huge elephant in the room.
MAGA moron elephant got in by less than 1%.
The very reason why the public demands DOGE. Because the cost of doing business in America is too damn high.
I agree, cheaper labor is a way to keep costs lower. So DOGE ships all cheaper labor out of USA. MAGA moronic movement to cleanse their bowels of good all bacteria, the good and bad bacteria in USA's gut.
Wiki... ' The United States pursued a protectionist policy from the beginning of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th century. Between 1861 and 1933, they had one of the highest average tariff rates on manufactured imports in the world. After 1942, the U.S. began to promote worldwide free trade. '..
How well did that round of Tarriffs do for USA?
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@ebuc
How well did that round of Tarriffs do for USA?
Ask Detroit and all of the rust belt how paying foreign tariffs while imposing zero tariffs worked out for them.
I agree, cheaper labor is a way to keep costs lower. So DOGE ships all cheaper labor out of USA.
DOGE is trying to make the cost of American business lower by cutting fraud and waste. That's the other half of making it more expensive to invest in foreign manufacturing.
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@Greyparrot
.(who choose to buy foreign sourced crap despite the price because they hate America)
They didn't buy it despite the price. They bought it because of the price. It's cheaper made overseas. Are you saying you expect Americans to pay more for products than they need to simply for reasons of patriotism? We could all patriot ourselves to death that way. Would that make you happy?
And your little fallacious tidbit suggesting that the foreign made goods that currently make up this unpatriotic trade imbalance are somehow deficient is absolutely laughable. (American automobiles are currently made using foreign parts of substandard quality?)
so, let me get this straight, not only are American automobiles unduly more expensive than their foreign made competitors, but they're also made using crap (foreign-sourced) parts. That sounds like the car I wanna buy.
And to get us out of this mess we're in, you support a plan that adds a tariff to goods Americans need by captivating the marketplace; huge sums of money being extracted from the value chain and diverted to government control; American manufacturers facing shock increases in demand without the time or capital needed to respond with increased capacity; and the global investment community (with all its apparently unused capital hiding under some pillow somewhere) patriotically riding into the rescue with fresh capital in support of expanding businesses that sell products of inferior quality at artificially high prices. Great. Would you like fries with that?
America, Fuck Yeah!
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@J.A.Prufrock
American manufacturers facing shock increases in demand..
Oh, heaven forbid we create a market for American manufacturers. We might actually create jobs that matter...
(with all its apparently unused capital hiding under some pillow somewhere)
A good chunk of that capital is overseas. That can change. Fairly soon likely. It will be a sad day for America haters.
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@Double_R
I gave you 9 paragraphs in post 33 explaining my argument
Yet no answer.
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@Greyparrot
Oh, heaven forbid we create a market for American manufacturers. We might actually create jobs that matter...
As far as I can tell, US auto manufacturing is already running at capacity or near capacity. There's no manufacturing plant, all tooled up and ready to go, sitting idle somewhere. There is no glut of unemployed, skilled UAW members just waiting for a shot. We don't hear of the astonishingly high production over-capacity, currently dragging on the economy, needed to step up production of ever more widgets to the level required to return to equilibrium. Nope. That kind of magical thinking is better as the plot of some After School Special.
Your cause is noble. But if these measures are successful, it will be the result of many years of intense focus reforming capital, production and labour (so, just the entire economy) catch levels not seen since Eisenhower. I personally believe success here will require even more in this case. I sincerely hope that it is successful. I will stand with you in the effort to do my part. But none of that detracts from the fact that we find ourselves here due to rushed, ill-planned, reckless decision making.
"Hey, buddy. If we drive our car off the Cliff do you think we'll crash and die?"
"Well, I don't rightly know, pal. Let's try it and find out."
"Sounds good to me." 🤑
Godspeed, America.
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@J.A.Prufrock
As far as I can tell, US auto manufacturing is already running at capacity or near capacity. There's no manufacturing plant, all tooled up and ready to go, sitting idle somewhere. There is no glut of unemployed, skilled UAW members just waiting for a shot. We don't hear of the astonishingly high production over-capacity, currently dragging on the economy, needed to step up production of ever more widgets to the level required to return to equilibrium. Nope. That kind of magical thinking is better as the plot of some After School Special.
Funny you bring this up. Your 1st statement is correct with the usual market conditions where we charge no tariffs but pay a lot to export our surplus production.
UAW head honcho Fain totally gets that we can change the market conditions where we can increase that manufacturing capacity. This is why Fain thinks your conservative ideas are full of shit. Conserving the status quo that created the rust belt isn't something Americans will allow anymore. Especially patriotic Americans.
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@Greyparrot
This is why Fain thinks your conservative ideas are full of shit.
Now, let's be honest please. I have also clearly written that a major component I'm achieving the change we seek can come from increasing capacity in line with demand (the substitution effect). So, Mr Fain and I agree on that. Another thing that he and I agree on, is the part that you conveniently left out. We both acknowledge that achieving these seismic changes at the level required to restore balance, will not only take years, but require unprecedented focus and effort.
Sounds like the kind of effort that you might want a well thought-out plan for. Or that you might initially want to proceed with slowly at first, testing your theories. With plenty of consultation, building up buy-in and acceptance one success at a time.
As for my shitty conservative ideas, please let me know which specific ideas you are referring to. By that, I mean which of my ideas you consider to be so politically conservative. My ideas are always potentially shitty.
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@J.A.Prufrock
Oh, heaven forbid we create a market for American manufacturers. We might actually create jobs that matter...As far as I can tell, US auto manufacturing is already running at capacity or near capacity.
rofl, the crashed car is near its top speed: zero
I could house half of Honduras in our abandoned factories, warehouses, industrial districts, and shipyards.
It's a differential equation, economies are always that way. People don't buy American so American factories shut down. American factories shut down and then there is no American production. American made product prices go up.
I have been involved in more than one attempt at productive enterprise outside the purely digital realm (construction, engineering prototyping).
There are things which simply aren't mass produced in the USA (anymore). If you want an American made example it either has to be custom made or it's from before the collapse (1985ish).
I've overseen imports where the tariffs were 50% (this was under Biden, a Trump era tariff his puppet masters left in place). It was STILL cheaper than a used American equivalent.
To all those who say "but the quality" I'm sorry but that is delusional copium. Yes, American engineering quality is better *on average*, but like 30-50% depending on the context. German engineering tends to be even better still. Japanese quality control and product evolution is generally flawless.
It's not that the market won't buy quality, it's that it still doesn't justify the cost. If an American machine costs $100 and a Chinese machine costs $10 that means I can try five different brands of Chinese equivalent, pick the best, and then spend $50 perfecting it with custom work.
That's all "brandname" is these days (with almost no exceptions), it's just more Chinese products with an extra layer of oversight.
Furthermore it is not that we've grown greedy or lazy (well maybe we are lazy) but the fact is Americans used to be able to afford American and European products. We're not addicted to cheap products, the corruption in our governments and the mega corps that are entangled with them have stolen our wealth until we can't afford anything but cheap imports.
Furthermore it is not that we've grown greedy or lazy (well maybe we are lazy) but the fact is Americans used to be able to afford American and European products. We're not addicted to cheap products, the corruption in our governments and the mega corps that are entangled with them have stolen our wealth until we can't afford anything but cheap imports.
The net sum of this game is that everybody is getting screwed except a small group of people typified by Nancy Pelosi and the big stockholders of Lockheed Martin.
The vast amount of the stolen money is given out to people wasting their time directly or indirectly employed by the government, often in such small amounts (per capita) that they can't even claim to have a much better quality of life than honest producers. They're just mannequins for the money laundering operation.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
We're not addicted to cheap products, the corruption in our governments and the mega corps that are entangled with them have stolen our wealth until we can't afford anything but cheap imports.
Funny that the same people against tariffs are also against removing the fraud and waste of the government.
Well, maybe more damning than funny at this point.
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@J.A.Prufrock
Or that you might initially want to proceed with slowly at first, testing your theories. With plenty of consultation, building up buy-in and acceptance one success at a time.
Nah, Americans are done with your status quo theories. They want a better standard of living now, not 20 years from now. The days of shitting on the average worker and lying about why they can't have nice things is over. It's time to reclaim what was once lost under the delusions of government economic managers. No more domestic red tape. No more foreign aid. Americans are not going to wait.
Edit* when I said "custom made" I meant "made to order", "custom" is EVEN MORE expensive.
The AP has this to say about tariffs:
U.S. tariffs are generally lower than those charged by other countries. The average U.S. tariff, weighted to reflect goods that are actually traded, is just 2.2% for the United States (sic), versus the European Union's 2.7%, China's 3% and India's 12%...Previous U.S. administrations agreed to the tariffs Trump now calls unjust. They were the result of a long negotiation between 1986 and 1994 -- the so-called Uruguay Round -- that ended in a trade pact signed by 123 countries and has formed the basis of the global trading system for nearly three decades.
The European figure doesn't reflect non-tariff trade barriers; the EU has been called a "regulatory superpower", and has a lot of arbitrary rules that an import will be blocked if it doesn't meet, a famous example being US chicken (which, in fact, is perfectly safe for human consumption). As a result, in 2024 the EU imported $370 billion worth of US goods while exporting $605 billion worth of goods to the US, an enormous trade deficit and an increase of 12.9% from 2023 levels.
It remains to be seen if the Trump Administration (as opposed to just Trump by himself) is competent enough to renegotiate the balance of global trade. But let's give credit where credit is due; this is the first administration in 30 years to seriously try, and there is ample justification for doing so.
Likewise, I remember reading that something like 80-90% of US economic output is sold to American customers. Tariffs imposed at home will be painful to the American consumer, but the American producer will be insulated to some degree from the effects of foreign tariffs, and I view this as the most important thing in the long run. Right now choice foreign countries stand to lose a lot more money than we do from a trade war (and this is discounting the leverage we have in the form of paying most of NATO's bills), which is why, if we "let the man cook" for a few months or up to a year or two, we might see results.
Yes, free trade is good and protectionism is bad. Which is why we need to teach the rest of the world this lesson. A dismal year or two could yield a brighter half-century afterward, not only for us but for the world at large.
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@Greyparrot
I approve of taxing foreign supporters and rewarding American patriots. Buy American. Source American. Let's make "insourcing" a thing again. Let's see what a country can look like when Americans work to help other Americans first.
I see, so you see an America that makes and grows everything Americans need, cool.
Does your vision for America include unicorns?
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@Sidewalker
Let me know when buying a unicorn will increase your standard of living, and I will look into it.