How do trans people feel about terms that distinguish sex?

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Savant
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I don't think most transgender people would dispute that sex exists—i.e. humans are generally grouped into a bimodal distribution of mainly being born with female traits (born with a uterus, XX chromosomes, etc.) or mainly being born with male traits (born with a penis, XY chromosomes). I say "bimodal" instead of "binary," since there are exceptions, but it's a pretty strong correlation. People are usually born with mostly male traits or mostly female traits, hence the grouping of the sexes. Otherwise there would be no reason to have different terms for "trans women" and "cis women."

And then there's gender. When trans women are referred to as women, this is using the term to refer to gender identity (which is arguably more nebulously defined). I'd wager that for a long time, a lot of people used the term "woman" to refer to sex and didn't know about gender identity at all. Some dictionaries define the word "woman" as referring to sex, but then some don't. Trans people aren't a monolith, of course, but I do know that many trans men with female traits would say that their sex is biologically female but object to being called a woman. In other words, they're fine using the term "female" to refer to sex but not the term "woman."

This might have something to do with the etymology of the word, but it might also have to do with how often it's used. If we has another word like "blargh" that was widely used to refer to humans born with female traits, would most trans men object to being described that way? Since both cis women and trans men are blarghs, would using the term "blargh" be different from saying they were assigned female at birth? Part of me suspects that many people would object to the use of the term "blargh" for the same reason they would object to using the term "woman" to refer to biological sex.

I guess a similar thing could be said for weight, where an overweight person might be fine being described as overweight but object to being described as "fat." On the other hand, I can't think of any woman with brown hair who would object to the term "brunette." It might be the case that gendered terms sometimes being intended as an insult (i.e. "you throw like a girl") makes some people not want to be referred to with that term, similarly to "fat" being used as an insult. So maybe people's opinion of the term "blargh" would depend on whether the word "blargh" had cultural connotations associated with it.

Maybe a trans person would be able to give their take on this, though it probably depends on the person. I did make some assumptions here about what trans people generally prefer to be called, and I don't know how accurate those assumptions are.
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@Savant
ive noticed the 'female' and 'woman' distinction in the trans community. female, sex. woman, gender and sex. but i just thought of this. does that mean there's male women and female women? and male men and female men? would the trans people be okay with being called a female man if they are a woman that identified as a man? 
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@Savant
but it's a pretty strong correlation. 
Pretty strong? According to the Library of Medicine, only  0.0000007% of us [about 500 of us, worldwide] are not XX or XY, but a numbers of other variables. The truth of the matter is that 100% of us have either ovaries or testes as gonads. Our cis-gender should not be designated by a vagina or penis, but by the gonads. But that  is problematic since ovaries are internal, but everopne has them, one set to a customer, only, even if one has both a vagina and penis. So, "transgender" does not exist, and cannot be chosen by the brain. That is a head-trip. The brain cannot modify the gonads. Hormones do not change them. Surgery does not change them. Worse, every single cell in the body - about 1 trillion of them, also contain, by DNA, our appropriate gender determinative. Are we going to surgically change all of them? Don't thinks so.
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@n8nrgim
does that mean there's male women... and female men? 
Emphatically: no!  Se my post #3. We cannot self-identify, because cis-gender is not properly determined by vagina/penis. The gonads - the set of ovaries or testes determines gender, and the brain has no choice in the matter. None. . Note that LGBTQ+ conveniently ignores  F and M - which is what 99.99999993% of us, worldwide, are. 
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@Savant
Maybe a trans person would be able to give their take on this
Who cares, given that:


though it probably depends on the person

If it's not objective there is nothing to debate.  Ice cream flavors.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
If it's not objective there is nothing to debate.
I mean I'd like to hear one person who feels the way I described give some insight.
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I don't know but I have a tip for people who get trans man and trans woman wrong. I didn't know what it meant for the longest time and it messed with me until somebody pointed out that an easy way to remember is to replace the word trans with fake.
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@Savant
Egg producer.

Sperm producer.

Maybe a very few developmental anomalies.

Procreational sex.

Recreational sex.

The mind, it's influences and it's shenanigans.

Modern medical and surgical opportunities.

I care not.

As long as they pay for it.

But we have the NHS...That leaks money like a sieve.

Need I say more?


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@Savant
How do trans people feel about terms that distinguish sex?
Term isnt a problem unless it is used to oppress person's wants. Yes, trans girl can have a penis. No, she didnt choose to have a penis. No, having a penis doesnt change the fact that she is trans girl. Maybe she doesnt want to keep her penis. Anyway, when people use "you have a penis" as a way to make trans girl and her wants invalid is  when you have the problem. The other problem is with labels. People choose their own labels and meanings. Your definition of a word might not be same as mine, and sticking your word to me just to try and crush what I am is just insensitive. It doesnt matter what definition you use because it wont change that trans people exist.
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@Savant
If it's not objective there is nothing to debate.
I mean I'd like to hear one person who feels the way I described give some insight.
Well I've talked to like 7 self-identified transgenders and none of them tell the same story.

It's preference on top of preference. I don't think there are genuine people here who self identify so maybe you need to go to somewhere else for interviews.

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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well I've talked to like 7 self-identified transgenders and none of them tell the same story.
Hard to make an imitation better than the original. Give them credit for trying.
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@Savant
As you said, it is not a monolithic group, and preferences would vary. The trans movement basically makes… stuff up as it goes. What was the case yesterday is not the case today. What is the case today will not be the case tomorrow. If the goal is to keep pushing loudly against social norms, then normalization cannot be the goal. 
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@cristo71
Unless the goal is to normalize outrage justifying unlimited political power...
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@cristo71
Hey.

Reinventing the new sexual high.

I think that there is already a new normal.

In fact, I think that there is always a new normal.


Population still expanding though.

So gametes still fusing somewhere.

Just not in a transsexuals cu*t.

Nor up their arse.




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@ADreamOfLiberty
Unless the goal is to normalize outrage justifying unlimited political power...
Trump reduced their political power.
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Who gives a shit how they feel. As if they give a shit about how anyone feels about anything other than themselves.
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@sadolite
Who gives a shit how they feel. As if they give a shit about how anyone feels about anything other than themselves.
What goes around … comes around.
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@Shila
What goes around...comes around.

Time for bed said Zebedee.
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They are around 1% of the population, I've met a few, never knew one well enough to say I had a relationship, more like there's been a few acquaintances.   Every encounter was uneventful.

My question is why their existence upsets so many people, with a significant part of the population, it's almost an obsession.  What is it about trans people that makes them a major issue for others? What effect on your life have they had to merit so much attention, outrage, etc.

Truth is, when I meet a trans person, at most I think "so what", whatever floats your boat", and don't really give it a second thougth, but when I see people obsessing about it, outraged and angry about it, I think "What's wrong with them"?  Trans person, "meh", screaming about transpeople, "danger danger Will Robinson".  That outrage strikes me a much weirder than the actual existence of trans people.

How is your life different because of trans people, how would it be better if there were no transpeople. 

If every transperson in the world disappeared, or they all woke up cis tomorrow, would you even know it?

I sincerely don't understand why it is such a big issue for so many people, can anybody explain?
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@Sidewalker
why it is such a big issue for so many people, can anybody explain?
Well, it's an issue for people with gender dysphoria, which isn't all transgender people but a significant number of them. No one with gender dysphoria seems to enjoy having it. Even among those who transition, dysphoria doesn't totally go away. Which indicates to me that we probably don't understand as much about it as we should.

If asking "How do trans people feel about terms that distinguish sex?" is somehow triggering to people, I don't know how any progress is going to get made understanding this issue. Don't they communicate their preferences, like, all the time?
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How is your life different because of trans people, how would it be better if there were no transpeople. 

If every transperson in the world disappeared, or they all woke up cis tomorrow, would you even know it?

I sincerely don't understand why it is such a big issue for so many people, can anybody explain?
Going against nature and enjoying it is fascinating.
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@Savant
why it is such a big issue for so many people, can anybody explain?
Well, it's an issue for people with gender dysphoria, which isn't all transgender people but a significant number of them. No one with gender dysphoria seems to enjoy having it. Even among those who transition, dysphoria doesn't totally go away. Which indicates to me that we probably don't understand as much about it as we should.

If asking "How do trans people feel about terms that distinguish sex?" is somehow triggering to people, I don't know how any progress is going to get made understanding this issue. Don't they communicate their preferences, like, all the time?
No, that's not what I was getting at, I'm questioning why so many people get upset about trans people, not the trans people themselves, that has to be a tough way to live, especially because of all the prejudice against them.

What I don't get is why people are so prejudiced against trans people, why all the hatred, what have they ever done to deserve it, in what way has a trans person affected the hater's life negatively? If they haven't, then what's all the outrage about?   

There are so many real problems to be upset about, why do people choose this one?

I really don't understand it.
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@Savant
The few times it's been explained to me, they talk about a trans "agenda" and the fact that it is growing, like they think it's contagious or something.  

Are the outraged people out there afraid they could catch it, maybe wake up confused tomorrow?

I guess my real question is "What are they afraid of"?
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No, that's not what I was getting at, I'm questioning why so many people get upset about trans people, not the trans people themselves, that has to be a tough way to live, especially because of all the prejudice against them.

What I don't get is why people are so prejudiced against trans people, why all the hatred, what have they ever done to deserve it, in what way has a trans person affected the hater's life negatively? If they haven't, then what's all the outrage about?   

There are so many real problems to be upset about, why do people choose this one?

I really don't understand it.
Trans make it look so easy to defy reality in public.
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@Sidewalker
Gender dysphoria is a state of mind and therefore a state of body and has therefore become an aspect of human evolution.

What we should also be plainly aware of, is that generational data transfer is retrospective.

So it's not only foolish, but also selfish to expect 8 billion people to instantaneously and unquestioningly be satisfied with a new psychosexual normal.
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@zedvictor4
Gender dysphoria is a state of mind and therefore a state of body and has therefore become an aspect of human evolution.
So wouldn’t that make it a matter of freedom and liberty, f it doesn’t affect you, then it shouldn’t matter to you, why do people feel the existence of people who are different is offensive to them?

What we should also be plainly aware of, is that generational data transfer is retrospective.
One in a hundred aren’t comfortable with their gender, I’m just glad I don’t have that problem to deal with, that’s how I know it is none of my business.  My question is why people make it their business, why do they want to make something so personal, the Government’s business.

So, it's not only foolish, but also selfish to expect 8 billion people to instantaneously and unquestioningly be satisfied with a new psychosexual normal.
So, if you are different, you have an obligation to make sure people who have nothing to do with it are “satisfied”?

My rub isn’t necessarily about trans people, that is just an example, what I’m challenging is this explosive growth of “dissatisfaction” with other’s freedom and liberty.  Our culture seems to be fighting against the core values of freedom and liberty, and none of these angry prejudiced people can, or will, explain how it affects their lives, and if it doesn’t, then it’s none of their business, so why do they make it their business.

The American people have a long history of expecting privacy and freedom in their personal lives, the fourth amendment said that what we do in our house is none of the governments damn business, it’s none of our neighbor’s business either,

I'll be the first to admit that "satisfied" is not how I feel when I see people who are different, I think most men think in images, and frankly, the idea of two men together sexually makes me go “EEWWWW”, but that doesn’t mean those two men should have fewer rights, they are still free to bump uglies if they want, it’s none of my business, and it’s clearly none of the government’s business.  Do gay men have an obligation for me to be satisfied, do I have a right to not feel “EEWWWW”, of course not, my visceral response is on me, and it's on me to not let it translate into prejudice.  If it makes you go “EEWWWW” the simple solution is don't fuck guys, hating isn't a solution, hating accomplishes nothing.

I’m raging about the explosion of intolerance, and I’m looking for one of the outraged to tell me how it affects them so negatively that they rage against it.
What ever happened to saying, “so what”, you be you and I’ll be me. I’d much rather say “EEWWWW” occasionally than see Americans lose the core values of freedom, liberty, and justice for all. 

I’m especially incensed that MAGA is vehemently opposing the most cherished core values of this country, freedom, liberty, justice for all, while appropriating our symbols of these core values, turning our Flag into a symbol of this incredibly un-American movement, calling it patriotism, calling hate-mongering free speech, calling fascism a matter of freedom, it’s astoundingly hypocritical. 

MAGA is attacking everything that made this country great under the bald-faced lie that they want to make this country great again.


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@zedvictor4
Yes, Dr. Ivanka Savic, a neuroscientist at the Department of Women and Children’s Health at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden and a visiting professor at UCLA, found with colleagues, Drs. Sarah Burke and Amir Manzouri, in research published in Scientific Reports that, “After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed ‘sex-typical’ FA-values.” Fractional anisotropy (FA) can be used to measure white matter connections in the brain that differ between the sexes. The researchers say, “The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.”
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@FLRW
“The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.”
So being trans is closer to the brain than just the sexual organs as in homosexuality.