What If Everything You Do Was Never Your Choice?

Author: WyIted

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#1
WyIted
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The concept of freewill has been around since at least ancient Greece when Socrates and Aristotle were exploring the role of moral responsibility. Since then it has spread through or been explored in other areas of philosophy such as with Judeo Christian values or through the enlightenment.

The illusion or belief in free will has been used to put moral responsibility on the shoulders of the individual. However despite the usefulness of this belief at placing blame on the individual, we can know that it's merely a convenient lie.

So far the theory hasn't been proved, its merely been used as an a priori assumption.

# the evidence against freewill

Our beliefs are formed by sensations from the outside world, we are devices that do not control our input, and if we get down to the cellular level, we don't control the electrical impulses in our brain nor do we control prior conditioning and the chemical processes that control our thoughts, which control our actions. We simply do not have the freewill because we are essentially meat computers.

# Common Rebuttals

- **Compatibilism**: Even if determinism is true, we can still have free will as long as our actions align with our desires and intentions, even if those desires are influenced by prior causes

This isn't a rebuttal. It's semantics, it's attempting to change the common definition of free will. There might be good reasons to use free will as a social construct, but it wouldn't change the fact that it's a fiction.
.
   
- **Quantum Mechanics**: Some argue that quantum indeterminacy (randomness at the subatomic level) allows for free will, suggesting that not everything is determined by prior events.


This is trying to state that randomness is free will, but we have no reason to believe that we have any control of this randomness that appears at the subatomic level.

   
- **Moral Responsibility**: If we didn't have free will, we couldn't be held morally accountable for our actions, which would undermine systems of justice and personal accountability.

We are talking about the truth value here. This rebuttal is off topic unless you are operating with a different definition of truth than what is normally used.
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#2
WyIted
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Here is why I made this thread? It's a video giving advice on how to improve low quality threads. Boring video but it goes through the process of expanding on an ideal and making it worth interacting with so you get better responses

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#3
WyIted
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@TheGreatSunGod
I used your thread as an example on how to create better threads to get a better conversation out of the topics you are interested in.

#4
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@WyIted
I used your thread as an example on how to create better threads to get a better conversation out of the topics you are interested in.
Thanks ^^

I do need to get much better at talking to people. I have plenty of information saved, but when it comes to talking to others and giving information to them, it tends to become a bit awkward.
#5
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@WyIted
Okay, I watched the video and I maybe understand a bit better.
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#6
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@TheGreatSunGod
That video was boring as fuck. I applaud you
#7
zedvictor4
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@WyIted
Meat computers.


I had no choice but to consider the phrase, meat computers.


I suppose that in a way, apples are basic fruit computers...In so much as they too are pre-programmed with necessary data.


Collectively, organic computers.


So how were the first organic computers programmed with necessary data?


Must have been GOD.


So how was GOD programmed?


Eternally existent, didn't require programming.


That's easy to say.


Have a nice day y'all.

#8
ebuc
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@zedvictor4
Eternally existent, didn't require programming.

.....Naught is created nor lost only transformed, eternally......

So many people find it so easy to say that, Universe ---occupied space Universe-- is infinite, and they all mean macro-infinite, even tho they dont state it that way.

Yet for them to envision eternally existent, they may often have more difficulty in accepting such, since so much of humans observe is this or that, which have a beginning and ending. Ex humans born and die.  

All humans have observed is biologic human life, coming from other human life as the egg and spermzoa.  So in a sense, our genetic programming is a form of self-programming at least until we die, yet, some degree of it can be passed on via egg and sperm combinations, or in the case of some female species that pop out exact clones of themselves with out any need for male sperm.

There is a scary aspect of our belief in and eternally existent Universe, wherein, all that exists now, will repeat again, and again, and again.  Isnt that like scenarios of hell?  Ex being stuck in cab where the stop light is always red and our frustration boils, then subsides then boils, repeat, repeat repeat etc.....

So there is this one possible fear, that, each of us when we die, will actually re-awaken in the the same scenario, that, led to our parents, then us again, and again and again.  Yes, within context of an eternally existent Universe, even if it is  many zeroes 10^? before we reoccur, and we have no memory of all of those other times of existence.
  ........10^200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...ebuc { * i * }  is born and relives exact same set of possible scenarios, then dies.....000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.......{ * i  *} .....................

I suppose thats not so bad, unless our lives have been awful compared to some other peoples lives.  Then this above scenario is more scary for those who hear of this eternal repeat, repeat, repeat scenario..................................

My bad?  Sorry.




#9
Sidewalker
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@WyIted
The concept of freewill has been around since at least ancient Greece when Socrates and Aristotle were exploring the role of moral responsibility. Since then it has spread through or been explored in other areas of philosophy such as with Judeo Christian values or through the enlightenment.
The idea that we are rational conscious beings and the associated fact that we are morally responsible causal agents is found in every time and every place that human beings have been known to exist.

The illusion or belief in free will has been used to put moral responsibility on the shoulders of the individual.
So that’s what it’s for, go figure, I though I used it to make plans and decisions, determine appropriate actions to take, choose between right and wrong, that kind of thing.

However despite the usefulness of this belief at placing blame on the individual, we can know that it's merely a convenient lie.
Whoa, big surprise, Wylted has employed the conceptual framework of conspiracy thinking rather than using a scientific or logical framework. Yes Wylted, Free Will is nothing but a vast conspiracy, perpetrated on us by our own minds, which trick us into thinking we are experiencing Free Will. For some hidden nefarious reason, our mind wants to trick us into believing we have the freedom to make choices, to make a difference, to think we are in control, but no, we are not really in control, that is just what they want you to believe.

So far the theory hasn't been proved, its merely been used as an a priori assumption.
Just like every other conspiracy out there, and like all conspiracy theories, it is impervious to contradictory evidence, facts, and logic. Any contradictory evidence, facts or logic is summarily dismissed as part of the “conspiracy” or “cover up,” this all makes sense by simply replacing the words "conspiracy" and "cover up" with the word “Illusion.”

# the evidence against freewill

Our beliefs are formed by sensations from the outside world, we are devices that do not control our input, and if we get down to the cellular level, we don't control the electrical impulses in our brain nor do we control prior conditioning and the chemical processes that control our thoughts, which control our actions. We simply do not have the freewill because we are essentially meat computers.

The denial of the self-evident truth of free will is an extraordinary claim, extraordinary claims require an extraordinary argument backed up by extraordinary evidence.  To deny the experiential reality of every waking moment of every individual and challenge the validity of every moral and legal system found in every known time and place where humans have ever existed, by no more than arbitrarily proclaiming that we are only “devices” and “meat computers” is not extraordinary evidence, in fact it isn’t evidence at all.

The brute fact is that we are conscious being who have causal influence on the material world through our actions; consequently, Free Will ontologically manifests itself in the physical world in the form of conscious causal agents that engage in conduct for reasons that are not included in the purely unconscious physical causation which by definition, does not include intent, values and purpose.  Conscious beings are free and responsible causal agents which act in a purposeful and goal directed way. 

Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates. A continuous conscious state includes desires or intentions, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state. The self can exert the force of consciousness to some effect in the material world; such conscious states can have causal effect to bring about further states for the sake of values and purposes. Intents, values, and purposes are not reducible to a purely physical state unless one attributes consciousness to the constituent matter itself; consequently, they exist as properties of a conscious free will which clearly entails a distinct ontological existence apart from its constituent material components.


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#10
WyIted
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@Sidewalker
Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates. A continuous conscious state includes desires or intentions
those desires and intents are a result of your brain correct? A brain made of atoms and electrical impulses and subatomic  laws and behavior out of your control. If it's true you can control these electrical influences, atoms and subatomic particles, I want you to do me a favor and conduct an experiment to prove it. change the atoms in your brain around to force yourself to believe you are actually marilyn Monroe. WHen you do that, I want you to control the signals involuntarily received in your brain to literally change your vision around so you see all modern cars as 1950s cars. You have free will. This means you can control the interpretation of signals and the atoms and subatomic particles that make up your brain and thoughts. SO please prove you have this free will.

You believe in science, lets test your claim. My claim has already been tested by science and we already know that the brain is not made up of magic free will stuff but of atoms, electrical impulses, chemicals and subatomic particles
#11
Shila
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@WyIted
Here is why I made this thread? It's a video giving advice on how to improve low quality threads. Boring video but it goes through the process of expanding on an ideal and making it worth interacting with so you get better responses

Karma is the best example of freewill. Personal accountability.
#12
cristo71
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@WyIted
The illusion or belief in free will has been used to put moral responsibility on the shoulders of the individual. However despite the usefulness of this belief at placing blame on the individual, we can know that it's merely a convenient lie.
This dovetails nicely with your other thread about why liberals “support” criminals. Perhaps criminals are compelled to commit crimes rather than freely choosing to do so.

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@cristo71
Perhaps criminals are compelled to commit crimes rather than freely choosing to do so.
The criminals are usually a product of bad childhood and abuse. If it was a free choice, it wouldnt be so strongly related to and controlled by things which happened to them which they couldnt possibly control.
#14
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@ebuc
Well, such is a nightmare scenario.

Though without memory it's just unknowable repetition.

Transformation seems to be a reasonable option.

Then if it repeats eternally, nought is created or lost.



BUT.

A beginning Ebuc.

It's the itch that won't go away.
#15
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@WyIted
the brain is not made up of magic free will stuff
Whoa, you really go deep with the science, tell us more.
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@WyIted
There again, if the unit is independent, it must be responsible for it's own actions.

Therefore under these circumstances, the functionality of the unit employs itself freely, even if processes are sequential.


Ah, but is everything resultant of sensory input?


Aargh.........Is everything a simulation?
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#17
WyIted
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@Sidewalker
Great rebuttal. You definitely belong on a debate site.
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#18
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@zedvictor4
Ah, but is everything resultant of sensory input?
Yes




Aargh.........Is everything a simulation?
Not sure. It's irrelevant to the discussion of free will though
#19
ebuc
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@zedvictor4
Well, such is a nightmare scenario. Though without memory it's just unknowable repetition.


True, it is only a nightmare scenario thinking of it now, before it eternally repeats, as when occurs, it is no differrent than the life we lived, cause as you say, the human will have no memory of their existence some z10^10 zillions of years ago.

Transformation seems to be a reasonable option.
Then if it repeats eternally, nought is created or lost.

Yes, I think we agree


A beginning Ebuc. It's the itch that won't go away.

Initial state of whatever in an eternal regeneration of finite, occupied space Universe or its parts

The initial states can change over time, within a finite set of what is possible.

Initial state of pudding may some times change due to temperature, moisture, dust in the air etc including the person doing the recipe etc.

On the one hand it is not magical, and on the the other hand, yes Universe and all of its interacting parts are extremely magical

#20
n8nrgim
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@WyIted
Free will is like God and the afterlife, you can't prove em but they r common sense. Just look at humans common sensical. We make our own decisions and me typing ! Is totally a free agent move. You only have a point that we might not have free will, we might be elaborate flesh robots. Is that seriously what you think, humans are nothing but elaborate flesh robots? Totally idiotic stance, if so
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#21
WyIted
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@n8nrgim
It wouldn't be an idiotic stance but I am defending this argument against free will and made a thread about it and I think we shouldn't let personal beliefs get in the way of discussing this subject.
#22
Sidewalker
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@WyIted
The brain is made up of atoms, so therefore free will does not exist is not an argument, it's a meaningless statement that has no logic to it.

That's like saying science says color is based on certain wavelengths of light, therefore green does not exist.


#23
MAV99
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@WyIted
Why does free will have to be something material? Your whole argument rests on the a priori assumption that it is something material. Is there a reason why?
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#24
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@Sidewalker
That's like saying science says color is based on certain wavelengths of light, therefore green does not exist.
What? No LOL

If the brain determines what to do and it's made up of atoms and chemicals and electrical impulses that tell it what to desire and tell it what to do than by extension there is no "I" that is in control.
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#25
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@MAV99
Why does free will have to be something material? Your whole argument rests on the a priori assumption that it is something material. Is there a reason why?
You get it. You get the true reason why free will exists. Look at others attempt to argue against it?

Good on you.  

Why my argument rests on that is because I was showing sun God how to make a better thread that gets more intelligent engagement, but yes I agree with the fact free will exists and for the same reasons you do.
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@ebuc
Yep. Magical is the logical solution.
#27
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@zedvictor4
Yep. Magical is the logical solution.

Again Zed, it depends on how were definning or framing the word magical and that involves context, circumstances etc.

FInite, occupied space Universe created from truly non-occupied space is illogical, lack of common sense critical thinking.

Eternally existent finite, occupied space Universe, that, has immense amount of magical-like qualities is aka extra-ordinary. Ex there use to exist our local, on the corner, small food market, and then many years later we have the first super-market so and so on.

Gun powder discovered by Chinese, was magical to all who came before its discovery. 

Atomic bomb and nuclear energy would appear magical to people living 500, 1000, 2000 years ago.

First humans new of the sun.  Then Nova's, the super-novas and now hyper-nova's and each new discovery seems to have magical-like qualities, beyond humans current understanding, except for in some cases we scientists who know enough to predict the existence of these magical-like things to exist in Universe.
#28
Double_R
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@WyIted
What If Everything You Do Was Never Your Choice?
Then nothing changes.

I find the free will debate pointless. If we have it, then case closed. If we don't, then what we're talking about is something we wouldn't even be able to recognize being that we never had it.
#29
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@WyIted
You get it. You get the true reason why free will exists.
Yeah, we forgot magic.

#30
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@Double_R
I find the free will debate pointless
It is a very important debate. This is all the matrix. Of course it is 🤟