In a world where God exists, should we obey him?

Author: Hero1000

Posts

Total: 35
Topic's author
#1
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
I am contemplating on making this a debate topic(where I argue that, given such a scenario, we should obey God), but for now I'll post it as a forum topic to maybe get more/various views in lighter format. Though feel free to write long paragraphs if you'd like to.


The world we're examining
The scenario here presents that the world we're examining is a world where, for the sake of argument, God 100% exists without question beyond room for doubt. For example one day everyone in the world all at once hear God talk to them in their mind, say at exactly 2/26/2025 5:00 pm gmt time, regardless of whether you're awake or asleep/unconscious. And then again at exactly 7:31 pm gmt time the next day. (If the scenario doesn't prove it to you, then use your imagination to imagine a scenario that can prove God to everyone. The scenario itself does not matter as much as constructing a world where, for the sake of argument, God's existence is known beyond possible doubt)

God's message
In the world we're examining, I'll present that we know what God's message is, be it what is written in the Bible, the Quran, a different religious book, similar to one/several of them, or a completely different message or set of messages from any of the holy books we have.
I'll personally recommend for the purposes of this exercise that we examine it as if, for the sake of argument, we know without room for misinterpretation *exactly* what God means by his words. But you're free to examine it instead where we could potentially misinterpret God's message if that interests you.


God's qualities
The scenario also presents that God has at least these qualities. Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. And that we know beyond doubt that God has these qualities. And that God created the world and everything in it. Typically God is also associated with Omnibenevolence, however, for the sake of this exercise we won't assume that that is a known quality about God. That whether the God you're imagining in this exercise is in fact Omnibenevolent or not, such a thing would not be verifiable by us. For example God could be one that orders us things we find evil like killing innocent children, or one that promises us heaven if we obey him but actually lied about that and sends us all to hell no matter what we do. (Although you are free to instead attribute God to being known as Omnibenevolent if you find that more interesting)
Additionally, only one God exists, if any other powerful entities exist (Angels, Satan, etc.), even if they're more powerful than us, they wouldn't be to able to do anything or make any changes to the world that God doesn't allow, and that all their powers combined would still be infinitely less than God's power.


The question
Under such a scenario, should we obey God? (And how much/to what extent should we obey him?) And in whichever case the answer is, would that answer be because of ethical reasons, pragmatic reasons, and/or whichever else other reasons you can think of? Additionally can you imagine variables that would change your answer to this exercise? (Such as for example the specifics of what God's message is)
#2
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 401
Posts: 12,563
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Hero1000
God maybe uses threats to subjugate me, but I am literally the spawn of Satan. I cannot be controlled. I cannot be subjugated. I only work to realize my dreams and wishes, since that is the only possible moral system, with no other moral systems even being possible. If I saw a hungry person starving, I would give him food. God watches people starve all the time, and just lets it happen. If I was God, no one would be suffering in any way. It is great that I am better God than God.
#3
IlDiavolo
IlDiavolo's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,696
3
2
5
IlDiavolo's avatar
IlDiavolo
3
2
5
I suppose you're talking about Christianity so let's take as an example one of the commandments of this supposed God that we have to "obey": "you shall not kill". 

We are assuming, I guess, that this is the same God that ordered to kill thousands of people for the sole purpose of taking their land. I ask you, do you think this God is coherent with what he says and orders?

This is one of the things I dislike about Christians, that they have their mind so clouded by their fanatism that they accept this kind of sht, which is in correspondance to what they understand about life. For them life is about "obeying", being submissive, being slaves of others that have a good narrative, they just follow orders without thinking as if they were the cattle taken to the slaughterhouse. This is totally unnatural, why do we have a brain? Isn't it for thinking, reasoning, analysing? Are we animals or are we a more evolved species? 

What a waste of time Christians are.
#4
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 401
Posts: 12,563
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@IlDiavolo
For them life is about "obeying", being submissive, being slaves of others that have a good narrative
Well, governments did need religions which teach obedience. Obedience is taught by schools, religions, parents, military, by people in position of power.

The greatest tragedy is, really, when person starts to thinks that the commands he was taught to follow are his own thoughts and not just thoughts installed in him by others. The inheriting of religion very much proves beyond a reasonable doubt that overwhelming majority of religious people are just programmed robots, and that person's thoughts are actually determined by his parents, education, media and society. The reason why religious people need to believe in free will is because they need to feel better about themselves, that they "chose the correct religion". Really, if they understood that they dont have free will, they would lose all joy found in their fantasy books.
#5
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 7,354
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
I care about self preservation so yes
#6
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,751
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Hero1000
The question
Under such a scenario, should we obey God? (And how much/to what extent should we obey him?) And in whichever case the answer is, would that answer be because of ethical reasons, pragmatic reasons, and/or whichever else other reasons you can think of? Additionally can you imagine variables that would change your answer to this exercise? (Such as for example the specifics of what God's message is)
The Bible makes the same case using the same scenarios. But the problem is Satan.
#7
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Hero1000
Hey Hero.

If there was/is a GOD it would/will be chilled.

And say:

Hi Y'all, keep up the good work.

Bye for now back ASAP.

Could be 2000 years, might be 10000.

Depends what's going down elsewhere.

OOOh! Keep an eye open for asteroids.
#8
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 401
Posts: 12,563
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@zedvictor4
If there was/is a GOD it would/will be chilled.

And say:

Hi Y'all, keep up the good work.

Bye for now back ASAP.
That would be God from Japanese anime. Do you think that God is Japanese?
#9
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Could be.

But I'm guessing that GOD is Universese.
#10
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 401
Posts: 12,563
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@zedvictor4
But I'm guessing that GOD is Universese.
Well, I guess, but how do we talk to Universe to make it do whatever we want?
Topic's author
#11
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@IlDiavolo
Not necessarily, its up to you whether or not the message of the God you are imagining is coherent. And, as I mentioned previously, whether or not there is possible room for misinterpretation in said message.
#12
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Symbiosis.


#13
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,751
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Hero1000
Not necessarily, it’s up to you whether or not the message of the God you are imagining is coherent. And, as I mentioned previously, whether or not there is possible room for misinterpretation in said message.
How can one do that when the only source is the Bible with all its contradictions and errors?
Topic's author
#14
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@Shila
The exercise is not necessarily intended to examine the bible or the God in the bible. You can either examine in this "in a world where God exists" hypothetical scenario one of the other religions we have like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and so on. Or you could even instead imagine a religion that does not exist in our current world.

In fact, I'd argue that "In a world where God exists", it only makes more sense that the message of the God you're imagining is without contradiction or error. If you wish to regardless examine the scenario in which case the message is full of contradictions and errors, you can. Especially if you'd find that makes it more interesting. But from the sound of your comment, it sounds like that would only make the scenario less interesting to you.
#15
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,499
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Hero1000
What an intriguing and very good question. 

To be honest, I think that whether we should obey or not is not the right question.  I think it goes without saying that not obeying will bring about the consequences of what that particular God indicated would occur. 

The real question is - why don't we obey? that for me is the more fascinating question. I for example think your scenario is not far from the reality - and hence, is a picture of the real world situation. Hence, we don't obey - as a general practice- and the question is why not? 

God is real -and despite people not believing in him, it doesn't change the fact. They hold the truth down.
#16
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,751
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Hero1000
The exercise is not necessarily intended to examine the bible or the God in the bible. You can either examine in this "in a world where God exists" hypothetical scenario one of the other religions we have like Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and so on. Or you could even instead imagine a religion that does not exist in our current world.
You are raising just another hypothetical. We have plenty of that in religions.

22 days later

#17
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
Don't obey what Trade?

What is it that we do, that an omniscient GOD would not have expected?
Topic's author
#18
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@zedvictor4
For the purposes of this exercise, you're intended in this hypothetical to yourself imagine what God's orders to us are, one of the reasons being to determine, at what point (if any) would the orders be outrageous enough that you would refuse to obey these orders.
#19
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Hero1000
Well in terms of a hypothetical GOD scenario, in my imagination an interventionist super-intelligence would know what to expect from emerging life-forms. 

It would watch from afar and not intervene.

At this moment in time, it would be observing  that although we are still hung up on Middle Eastern religious stuff, we are nonetheless progressing nicely with technology, AI and space exploration.

Obeyance, means evolution in accordance with universal laws of material development. Same rules would apply to GOD.
Topic's author
#20
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@zedvictor4
I think I am lost somewhere in your explanation. What is the connection between God's expectations of us and his orders/message to us?
#21
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Hero1000
Well, my hypothetical GOD is simply an interventionist super-intelligence, that seeks out suitable planets and sows the seeds of life.

It then departs, expecting life, species and intellect to evolve in accordance with universal laws.

It doesn't need to hang around and boss things about.

Neither does it need to leave messages.


The development of religions would have been an expectation, as intellectual organisms sought answers to questions.

And the obvious first answer, would have been an intellectual organism.

Of course we've moved on considerably since then,  in terms of intelligence gathering, material development and universal knowledge.

But some  humans like to cling on to old outdated ideas... Which was to be expected.


So in a Universe where a super-intelligence might exist, both orders and obeyance are irrelevant.
Topic's author
#22
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@zedvictor4
Is that what you believe God should be like? or what you've concluded is most likely the personality God would have if he were to exist? The exercise is not meant to tackle either of these questions. It's meant to tackle something like, for instance, if God ordered you to kill innocent infants, would you do it? Assuming hypothetically that there is no room for misinterpretation that this is one of God's orders and that God exists. There is not much mental interaction with the exercise or internal challenge if the God you imagine is one you already agree with.

Back to my main question though, and I apologize for continuing to try your patience, but I still don't understand what what you said has to do with the relation between God's expectation of us and God's order/message to us. I suppose minus the part where you concluded there wouldn't be orders.
#23
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,499
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
Don't obey what Trade?

What is it that we do, that an omniscient GOD would not have expected?
I think you are conflating two things, there dear Zed.

One is to do with the expectations of a holy God and one is God knowing we will or we won't obey. 

When a government - admittedly not holy, and probably corrupt, makes laws that tell people to not murder people, this is an expectation and a good one in the scheme of things. 

But surely you would also agree that every government, no matter how evil or how corrupt it is - would know that not every person would obey its laws? It doesn't need to alknowing to make the law anyway. 

You see - laws are effectively a standard or a boundary.  And hopefully they reflect the standard or boundary of a particular God or indeed a government. 

And boundaries are necessary for teaching and for discipline, aren't they? 

What was the first boundary in Biblical Terms? God put Adam and Eve into the Garden of Eden. He told them they could eat from all the trees including the tree of life, and then he gave them a boundary. Don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  He gave them freedom, and then defined what that freedom meant. After all without a boundary, then freedom would have had no meaning. To appreciate freedom, one needs to appreciate the boundarys attached. And in appreciating so, then one moves towards maturity, via discipine.  

Hence, God, the all knowing God, knew that some would obey and some would not. He desires that his children grow and mature. And one way that happens - and probably the most effective way that happens is via discipline - and knowing what boundaries are.

When you think about it - the people who break laws in our society have never understood what boundaries are - and the purpose of them.  They probably see them as a restriction on their freedom, rather than as a process to help them understand true freedom.  They might even perceive them to be tools to keep people as slaves. That's the way Karl Marx perceived them. Hence why he advocated anarchy as the natural conclusion of humanity. 

The author of this OP however has a different understanding of laws. Hence, why he wants to know whether we would obey God even if he asks us to kill infants. For him it is not so much about teaching or training people to maturity, and helping them to understand true freedom. He, at least it seems to me, is trying to ascertain - why someone wouldn't obey a God who asks us to do anything - if they were so all powerful?  To me, that is an unhelpful suggestion, even if there may be an inkling of truth within it. 
Topic's author
#24
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@Tradesecret
I think there might be a misunderstanding here, I do not know for sure why my understanding of the law is being brought up here but I could attempt a guess, my guess is that you might think I am making some kind of statement about law.

I am not, to me God's orders and the law of man are completely separate. In fact, even within the context of Islam and Sharia law, God's orders and what God orders us to make law are separate. For example in Islam God orders other to pray 5 times a day, and God also orders us not to kill another without a just cause. The former is not part of Sharia law but the latter is. The distinction can be made as such, it is because God orders us to pray 5 times a day, but does not order us to prevent or punish offenders of this order (God alone holds the right to deliver such punishment, if he wishes). Whereas God orders us not to kill another without just cause, and also to prevent and punish offenders of this order.

I think this is probably the case in Christianity too, for example God might order you to go to Church on Sundays, but does not order you to force others to go to Church on Sundays.

Sorry for the long tirade that's not that relevant to the topic exercise, but I believed it'd be best to clear things up regarding how I view God and Law.

On another note, you are correct that God does what he does with intent and with reason, God would not out of no where ask us to kill infants. The exercise is not intended to answer why God does what he does, and, partially as you guessed, is intended to demonstrate why one would or would not obey God, and to what extent of outrageous orders would one stop obeying God.

And so far the answers are largely binary and, at the risk of offending everyone who answered here(yourself included), unimaginative.
Atheists answering that they'd disobey God, imagine only the God of our most popular religion and declaring him incoherent(and maybe potentially implying that I am Christian, lmao), or imagining a God that agrees with them and doesn't give orders.
Theists simply answering that they'd obey God, and in your case, declaring(or at least implying) that in our real world, outside of this hypothetical, God's existence is an easy to determine fact. (And while, as Muslim myself, I'd argue for this also, this particular exercise is not intended to tackle that particular question, though I do still appreciate your comments)

There hasn't been a more nuanced answer that was something like "I would obey God unless he ordered me to do xyz", this exercise is also partially intended to invoke exploration into the new and/or uncomfortable. And in small part to kind of semi implicitly ask others, in a world where God exists, whether God would be morally good because he follows and adheres to what is moral, or because he decides what is moral.
#25
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,651
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Hero1000
Yes, No, Maybe.
No, because of the Turing Test, and possibly excessive skepticism.
How do I know it is God, when something as less as recording can fool me?

Yes, because much of what God says might be good.
Lot of stuff in the Bible appeals to humans, whether because of game theory selfishness, or a valuing of selflessness and wanting well for the world.

Maybe because I'm not sure if God has ever tried to trick/test someone into disobeying him.
(Biblically speaking) I think the Binding of Isaac exists as a way to further set apart the Israelites from child sacrificing cultures that they were from or had been bled into them.
Some people view such pure obedience and faith as good,
We sacrifice people all the time, in sweatshops and wars, in prioritizing of this person or that person, this value or that possession.
Some people believe in an afterlife, that death is not 'so terrible.
But they are also against murder.
. . .

Should we obey our parents, teachers, government officials?
For many of us, yes, they are trusted and often offer good direction.
For some of us and some situations, no. Abuse can occur, wrong actions.

But then your God is Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. You didn't say Omnigood.
Would still fit the idea of 'some people, that Good is whatever God 'says it is.
But eh, I was a moral nihilist 'before I even became an Atheist.


#26
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 10
Posts: 3,651
4
5
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
5
10
-->
@Hero1000
Then again you say,
"a world where, for the sake of argument, God 100% exists without question beyond room for doubt" - #1
So assumably there would be no situations where we can be fooled by pretenders.

But then again you say,
"or one that promises us heaven if we obey him but actually lied about that and sends us all to hell no matter what we do." - #1
So there is 'still the problem of skepticism and identifying what type of being one is dealing with.

Some people still have faith in various Xs, even in unknowable ends, hard or even contrary times.
The X is of such value, such as family,
The rewards are tempting, whether selfish or selfless rewards,
Sometimes what else 'is there but to hold on and keep going.
#27
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,825
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
@Hero1000
Firstly, I do not believe anything that I do not know for certain. ( And therefore I do not need to believe).

And I have no clue as to the origins of the Universe or life upon Planet Earth.

And furthermore, neither do you or the lovely Trade.

And I'm guessing that neither did those naive Middle Easterners who started all this now popular religious hypothesising. 

But like you and Trade, I can only speculate upon what actually went down a few thousand years ago.


So an Interventionist Super-Intelligence is a non-believing guess in respect of a GOD scenario, wherein I also guess that said entity would be a tad more logical and practical than the magic bloke as described in biblical mythology.

What I do know is...If there was/is a GOD/ISI, it clearly hasn't hung around to boss me about. Therefore I cannot obey the unobeyable.
Topic's author
#28
Hero1000
Hero1000's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 63
0
1
4
Hero1000's avatar
Hero1000
0
1
4
-->
@zedvictor4
I understood all of that from the very start, perhaps I didn't word it very well when I used the word 'believe'.(Then again in my defense, I used 'conclude' instead on the other half, reading what you said again, I think my second half was pretty spot on so I don't know what this reaction you gave is about) What I was getting to is that the exercise is not intended to ask "If God existed, what is, according to your deductive reasoning, the most likely form and/or personality that he would have?". You completely miss the point by continuing to bring your irl lack of belief and my and Trade's irl beliefs into this topic.

Look, I am not gonna repeat myself anymore, if you don't wish to hypothetically imagine a God whose orders you'd struggle with (or hell, has any orders to begin with) that's your prerogative. But if you want to talk about whether or not God exists, what a super intelligent God would be like, and/or what we know and don't know about the universe, please do so in a more relevant topic and/or debate.
#29
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,751
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Hero1000
The question
Under such a scenario, should we obey God? (And how much/to what extent should we obey him?) And in whichever case the answer is, would that answer be because of ethical reasons, pragmatic reasons, and/or whichever else other reasons you can think of? Additionally can you imagine variables that would change your answer to this exercise? (Such as for example the specifics of what God's message is)
All he has to prove he is God with all the above qualities and the world will accept him.
#30
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,417
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Shila

Why can't he appear in a burning bush on X?