Devils advocate- is trumps unlawful coup morally justifiable?

Author: n8nrgim

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Here is a top historian from Yale calling it a coup

Also he is stopping payments from many programs of congressional appropriated money and those r illegal without congress. All trump can do is pause them temporarily but technically I think musk is stopping payments before trumps input. Take usaid. Permanently stopping or changing spending needs congressional approval. Rubio looks to trying that that way even tho they stopped funding already. Maybe these will just be technically illegal and plausible in the eyes of the law?
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Technically the supreme court could reverse course and give the president more power. But I wouldn't want that plus dem presidents would have more power and I know we all wouldn't want that. 

I don't think they'll give him so much power to selectively eforce the law or not spend appropriated money, and its pretty clear they won't let him nullify the department of education. They'll nullify his executive orders as they often do for president's and Rubio will get usaid funding reprioritized
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@n8nrgim
Most of Trumps executive orders r illegal.
That amounts to gish gallop: making personal opinion claims with no support by factual citation. Demonstrate the illegality. That's all. I am challenge your credibility.  You personal opinion response is just ore galloping.
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@Greyparrot
@Shila
A total of 55 countries in Africa, Americas, Asia, Middle East and Oceana do not recognize Gaza [Palestine] as a self-governed State. Greenland, while  "self-governed" is a member state of the Kingdom of Denmark, and the Gulf is a body of water, not a landmass. And while the Gulf is referenced to Mexico, it did not become an independent nation, separated from Spain, until 1821, after the sovereignty of the U.S. was already established. Although Mexico actually has 60 miles more of coastline of the Gulf than does the US, we produce much more from it than does Mexico. I'd say considering all, the US can lay claim to it with more legitimacy than Mexico.
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@n8nrgim
Technically the supreme court could reverse course and give the president more power. 
Nope. SCOTUS does not have that paper to take, nor give autonomously. The three branches share their power only insofar as the Constitution allows each there autonomous and shared power, and SCOTUS can do nothing without a case before them to act upon. 

 its pretty clear they [SCOTUS] won't let him nullify the department of education. 
That's a murky statement. SCOTUS has no authority to tell the president, the XO of the Executive Branch, what offices within the Executive [the Cabinet, in this case] are legitimately executive offices.
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@n8nrgim
The actions of musk r skirting the boundary of legality. Hes a temporary employee and doesn't have security clearances to be accessing all the data systems of all the agencies but he's doing it anywa6 and using trumps lawyers and congress to threaten retaliation for push back

He has every right to be fired as any other government employee, so you obviously approve of the mass firings.

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@n8nrgim
What exactly has Trump done that is a coup?

I'm only 'now realizing you're talking about some budget thing or other that he is doing,
And Googling, I see other people talking about it.

Reading some more, people are mentioning Musk?
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@fauxlaw
what do you expect me to cite statutes, the constitution, regulations, and case law? instead of all that, how about I just explain the law to you, and you can fact check me with a citation. i'm not gonna let you call my arguments Gish gallop then allow you to just turn around and Gish gallop me.

the department of education was created by Congress. that means the executive can't nullify it since it only enforces what congress gives, for the most part. many of the program in that department like student loans are mandatory spending which are not subject to yearly appropriation. the executive can't touch that either. most experts consider the supreme court the final word on on laws and the constitution. that means they can minimize or nullify that department, if they think it infringes on the executive, but they tend to respect congress the most as the law writer and give deference to them. if the court were to allow trump to nullify the department he would have to restructure the government to maintain the department's lawful orders. 

USAID is created by Congress. the president can't touch it as a program. the spending in it is discretionary and subject to yearly appropriation. so, even tho trump tried to nullify the program the court wouldn't let him, but he must spend its money as the executive unless he gets congress to change the spending, and that's exactly what Marco Rubio as secretary of state is trying to do, despite trump trying to nullify it all. Rubio is upholding the law as the statesman. 

the president has limited authority to selectively enforce the law or not spend appropriated money. the impoundment control act limits the presidents authority not to spend what congress has appropriated. the supreme court could nullify or modify that law, but they generally defer to congress. the court could give him more power to not enforce laws, but they usually limit that too. I think you could argue the executive can force its views as final, but almost every legal expert tends to give the court the final word. if we aren't careful, if we follow your ideas on executive as final, or the court lets him nullify these statutes enacted lawfully by the people or selectively enforce laws, or not spend money etc, then we could be moving in the direction of a dictatorship. for practical purposes, that might be good as our nation heads towards bankruptcy, but it's not democratic, and if we give trump that power, then dem presidents would have that power, and I know we all wouldn't want that. 
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@n8nrgim
what do you expect me to cite statutes, the constitution, regulations, and case law? 
I do, because I've lived a life of research, even back when that could only be done in libraries, because I did not have the advantage of the Internet you and I have today. So, yes, I expect it. By such availability , caring to avoid being sucked in by "social" media, which is mostly bullshyte, you make the time to be thorough. So, you claim:

Most of Trumps executive orders r illegal.
in your post #30. Well, I've asked you to stop gishing [claiming personal opinion as fact] and demonstrate a supporting source reference, and you reply by accusing me of gishing. I've merely asked a question. What have I claimed by the question that is not a legitimate inquiry? If you can provide a legitimate source supporting your claim that "most of Trump's executive orders are "illegal," i.e., more than 50% of them, I'm satisfied. If not, I'm not. But don't make personal claims you're not willing to back-up with evidence. I know something about courts of law, being a student of that enterprise for the better part of 50 years. I've been around the sun 75 times. boyo, and I am hooked on gaining knowledge, and I didn't quit at the end of my "formal education" over 50 years ago, completing another baccalaureate just last fall in linguistics. Just for the hell of it.
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@fauxlaw
It doesn't make sense to ask for a source that establishes 50 percent of the orders r illegal because no one would make that claim because there's no objective way of measuring that. It lacks critical thinking on your part to request it. All we could do is research the law point by point in my last post then we each give our judgment. 

You just do a small gish gallop. You started spouting nonsense about the executive trumping the judiciary and related nonsense. 

Instead of taking my suggestion and finding a few citations of law that contradict my last post analysis, you r going off on wild tangents. I've noticed that as a trend from you. Why don't you read my claims in my last post and you show me three pieces of law that contradict it? Why r u opposed to that approach? It diesnt make sense to turn this into a dissertation debate, that is overkill for our purposes. Just make a claim by citation of where my post is mistaken and I'll cite authority back where u r wrong. This will also help me establish that u lack credibility on legal matters
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Here's a look at Trump orders the courts have halted:
DOGE
Retirees and union members filed a legal challenge to the Treasury Department's decision to allow staffers from Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, access to the federal government’s massive payment and collections system — and the personal data housed in it.
Arguing that the move violated federal privacy laws, they're seeking an order barring DOGE from accessing the data and requiring the return of any data that has already been harvested. The Justice Department has agreed to restrict some access to the systems pending the results of a full hearing on the matter on Feb. 24.
In a related case this week, a group of union members filed a suit seeking to block DOGE, which Trump created, from accessing confidential information from the Labor Department. U.S. District Judge John D. Bates heard arguments in that case Friday and denied the request for a temporary restraining order. He said he had "concerns" about the alleged activity by DOGE but that the plaintiffs had not established standing.
Nineteen states, led by New York, filed a similar suit Friday, arguing Musk's access to personal data was unconstitutional.
USAID
On Thursday night, a pair of unions sued the Trump administration over its efforts to dismantle the U.S. Agency for International Development.
At an emergency hearing Friday in Washington D.C. federal court, U.S. District Judge Carl Nichols said he would pause a midnight deadline for USAID to be stripped down to a few hundred workers. The announcement came just hours before 2,200 USAID employees were scheduled to be placed on administrative leave, which would have taken effect at 11:59 p.m. ET Friday. 
Nichols said he would be issuing a “very limited” written temporary restraining order before midnight. The order was issued shortly before 11 p.m.
Government buyouts
As part of Trump's effort to downsize the federal workforce, the Office of Personnel Management recently announced a mass "deferred resignation" program that would allow workers to resign now but get paid through September. The stated deadline to accept the offer was Thursday night, and a senior administration official said earlier in the day that 60,000 people hadaccepted.
Labor unions for federal workers sued to stop the program, arguing that the Trump administration does not have legal authority to offer such buyouts.
A federal judge in Boston blocked the government Thursday from implementing the buyouts until at least Monday, when he will have a hearing on the issue.
One consequence of the judge's order is that it also extended how long workers have to respond to the resignation offer.
“We are grateful to the Judge for extending the deadline so more federal workers who refuse to show up to the office can take the Administration up on this very generous, once-in-a-lifetime offer,” White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt told NBC News in a statement.
Birthright citizenship
One of the most controversial of Trump's executive orders was one called “Protecting the Meaning and Value of American Citizenship,” which seeks to restrict birthright citizenship. It seeks to limit such citizenship to people who have at least one parent who is a U.S. citizen or permanent resident, and it says that those born to parents who are in the country legally but temporarily will no longer be automatically guaranteed citizenship, including those with high-skill work visas and student visas.
A number of lawsuits across the country are challenging the order. Federal judges in Maryland and Washington state this week issued nationwide preliminary injunctions blocking it from taking effect. 
In his ruling Thursday, U.S. District Judge John C. Coughenour wrote, "Citizenship by birth is an unequivocal constitutional right."

The judge in Seattle wrote, "The President cannot change, limit or qualify this Constitutional right via an executive order."
The Justice Department appealed the Seattle decision Thursday night.
Funding freeze
A pair of federal judges temporarily blocked a federal aid funding freeze directed by the Trump administration in response to his executive orders.
memo from the Office of Management and Budget last week directed federal agencies to “temporarily pause all activities related to obligation or disbursement of all Federal financial assistance, and other relevant agency activities that may be implicated by the executive orders” pertaining to topics like foreign aid and diversity, equity and inclusion programs.
The memo said the pause would allow the administration to review which programs are “consistent” with Trump’s agenda.
The vaguely worded memo was withdrawn after confusion about what aid would be halted spread and people and organizations reported being unable to access systems to receive federal aid.
In a ruling Friday, U.S. District Judge John J. McConnell in Rhode Island signed off on a temporary restraining order after the memo was withdrawn, noting that Leavitt had tweeted to the public that “This is NOT a rescission of the federal funding freeze. It is simply a rescission of the OMB memo."
The judge found the White House's actions appeared to violate the law. “Federal law specifies how the Executive should act if it believes that appropriations are inconsistent with the President’s priorities — it must ask Congress, not act unilaterally,” he wrote.
Before U.S. District Judge Loren AliKhan issued her ruling Monday in the separate Washington, D.C., case, she noted that even after the memo was withdrawn, there were “individuals who are still having issues accessing funding platforms.”
“That indicates to me the memo is still doing some work,” she said.
Transgender inmates
Another of Trump’s orders targeted transgender inmates, saying the federal Bureau of Prisons was now required to ensure that “males are not detained in women’s prisons.”
That led to two lawsuits filed on behalf of four transgender women prisoners who were scheduled to be transferred to men's facilities. They argued that the order constituted cruel and unusual punishment because they would be at serious risk of violence and sexual assault in a facility for men.
Two judges blocked the inmates from being moved.
In a suit involving three of the prisoners, U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth in Washington, D.C., concluded that “the public interest in seeing the plaintiffs relocated immediately to male facilities is slight at best.”
Lamberth noted that "by the defendants’ own admission, there are only about sixteen male-to-female transgender women housed in female penitentiaries, including the plaintiffs.” He said the government had not even alleged the three prisoners “present any threat to the female inmates housed with them, or that this threat cannot be managed locally by prison staff."

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The only point I might be wrong is usaid is rooted in statute but I think was created by a president. The president might have more authority than I realize to revoke or modify that. But it's still based in statute and Rubio is trying to utilize congress to amend it instead of relying on trump nullifying the order
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@n8nrgim
The only point I might be wrong is usaid is rooted in statute but I think was created by a president. The president might have more authority than I realize to revoke or modify that. But it's still based in statute and Rubio is trying to utilize congress to amend it instead of relying on trump nullifying the order

Who developed USAID?
President John F. Kennedy
President John F. Kennedy created USAID via executive order at the height of the Cold War in 1961—based on authority provided in the 1961 Foreign Assistance Act—to counter Soviet influence abroad.

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The authority of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and its funding can be influenced by executive orders, but nullifying the agency outright would be a complex process. An executive order can change how USAID operates, direct its funding priorities, or implement specific policies. However, it cannot completely eliminate the agency without legislative action.

In the U.S. government, agencies like USAID are established by law, and any significant changes, including elimination, would typically require congressional approval. An executive order can affect how the agency functions within the parameters set by law, but it doesn't have the power to nullify the agency itself.
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USAID was created by the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, which was passed by Congress and signed into law by President John F. Kennedy. Although executive orders can influence the operations of federal agencies, they cannot create them if they are not established by law.

President Kennedy did issue an executive order related to foreign assistance, but the formal establishment of USAID was through legislative action. Thus, while a president can shape the agency's direction and priorities through executive orders, the agency itself exists due to an act of Congress.
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Personally, I don't see a coup, and think people are overreacting by calling it a coup.

Call it overreach 'maybe.