Devils advocate- is trumps unlawful coup morally justifiable?

Author: n8nrgim

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Our country is headed for bankruptcy. I don't see any realistic ways of remedy that in the foreseeable future. Given violent revolutions r sometimes morally justifiable, such as the revolution that began our country, couldn't a violent revolt be justifiable now, and if so couldn't a lawless coup also be justifiable? 

For example, the usaid thing or the department of education or half of what trumps attacking trump has no legal authority to stop. Right now there's talk of this all being temporary but if that's the case, it was just chaos and destruction for no reason. But what if trump tries to make it permanent? Would it only last till the next president takes over to reestablish the rule of law? What if trump does what the libs were mocked for sayin he would do, and tries to establish a dictatorship? Would that be ethical? 

I know I was playing devils advocate but I believe in democracy. If we destroy ourselves, we deserve whatever fate we get. Lawless coups r not justifiable. 


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@n8nrgim
I know I was playing devils advocate but I believe in democracy. If we destroy ourselves, we deserve whatever fate we get. Lawless coups r not justifiable. 
Trump is slowly dismantling the institutions of the government after having transferred the US Constitution over to the Bible. This way the Bible with the constitution will be the guiding force in America blessed by God.
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@n8nrgim
Just let Trump destroy USA. American people elected him. They deserve whatever he does to them.
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@Best.Korea
Just let Trump destroy USA. American people elected him. They deserve whatever he does to them.
That is fine. But why is he attacking Greenland, Garza, Canada, Gulf of Mexico ?
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@n8nrgim
Whoa! what a gem to parse!

Let's go line by line, shall we?

Our country is headed for bankruptcy.
Under President Andrew Jackson. In 1835, the U.S. government managed to pay off its entire national debt, marking the only time in its history that the country was officially debt-free. This achievement was a significant point of pride for Jackson’s administration.

So for almost 200 years, the country was headed toward bankruptcy, and 2025 is the year you chose to care? 

I don't see any realistic ways of remedy that in the foreseeable future.
That's why elections matter, and you should never have let a DEI candidate run for potus to make "a historical moment"

Given violent revolutions r sometimes morally justifiable, such as the revolution that began our country, couldn't a violent revolt be justifiable now, and if so couldn't a lawless coup also be justifiable? 
You  mean more BLM riots? Sure, let's have round 2 of that.

For example, the usaid thing or the department of education or half of what trumps attacking trump has no legal authority to stop.
Then let the courts decide.

Right now there's talk of this all being temporary but if that's the case, it was just chaos and destruction for no reason.
To the unreasonable, of course there can exist no reasons.

But what if trump tries to make it permanent?
Surely you meant to say Congress.

Would it only last till the next president takes over to reestablish the rule of law?
Not if Congress abolishes some of the 4th branch of government permanently.

What if trump does what the libs were mocked for sayin he would do, and tries to establish a dictatorship?
As opposed to a president that has no power to check the corruption of the 4th branch, or Congress? Pretty sure that's unconstitutional.

Would that be ethical? 
Who cares about ethics if it's clearly in line with the constitution. A president should be able to dictate the path of the executive branch instead of an unelected 4th branch.

I know I was playing devils advocate
Lol, you agreed with all this in the past. Did you suddenly become MAGA?

but I believe in democracy.
Clearly not when Americans elect someone you don't like.

If we destroy ourselves, we deserve whatever fate we get.
We are doing the opposite right now by cleaning up the waste, fraud, and abuse of the unconstitutional 4th branch of government.

Lawless coups r not justifiable. 
Sure they can be, just not based on the hyperbole surrounding Trump. That would be more of the same witch hunts that got Trump re-elected with a massive mandate and popularity boost. 



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@Shila
That is fine. But why is he attacking Greenland, Garza, Canada, Gulf of Mexico ?
It happens very often that other countries pay the price of American citizen stupidity.

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@Best.Korea
I don't think Greenland, Gaza, or the Gulf are technically "countries"
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Sure they can be, just not based on the hyperbole surrounding Trump. That would be more of the same witch hunts that got Trump re-elected with a massive mandate and popularity boost. 
Trump was re-elected to save him from going to jail. Unless he changes the constitution he will remain a convicted criminal.
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@Greyparrot
Research it. Usaid and the department of  education were passed by congress along with much of the other stuff they're doing. That means trump has no authority to undo those. 

He'd have to test theories in Court that have been struck down like him trying not to spend what has been appropriated by congress or selectively enforcing laws. I'm not saying the court won't support him, I'm pretty sure they believe in democracy, but they might let him pause these things at best. 

Beyond that I'm not gonna debate with someone who struggles to stay relevant and lacking basic knowledge of our legal structures
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Just the interest on the US Debt is $40,000 per person per year.

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@n8nrgim
 who struggles to stay relevant and lacking basic knowledge of our legal structures
USAID is part of the executive branch of the U.S. government. It is an independent agency tasked with administering foreign aid and development programs around the world. The Administrator of USAID is appointed by the President, which underscores the agency's direct connection to the executive branch. While USAID operates with a degree of autonomy, its activities and policies are ultimately aligned with the broader objectives set by the President and the executive branch, and it collaborates closely with other executive entities such as the State Department.

basic stuff bro.

Under your dystopia, you would have USAID be a tyrannical dictator that an elected president would have no authority over. Thankfully, those days of lawlessness will soon be over.

Usaid and the department of  education were passed by congress along with much of the other stuff they're doing.
That's actually 100% false. And you accuse me of doing no research and not living in reality.... USAID was created by executive order, and it can be disbanded by executive order.
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@Greyparrot
Youre mistaken on the law. But it looks like they r trying to dismantle it legally. I know the president can pause spending so that will prob be the path he takes 

created by Congress. USAID was established first by an executive order in 1961 but was later enshrined in a law enacted by Congress in 1998.

“My best reading of the law is that although the president could direct greater coordination of USAID with the State Department and maybe even transfer some functions, he cannot unilaterally abolish the agency by executive order,” said Richard Briffault, a professor at Columbia Law School.

A more recent law requires the executive branch to consult Congress on any proposed reorganization, something that Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who has assumed leadership of USAID, belatedly appeared to do on Monday when he sent a letter to senators.






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@n8nrgim
You're mistaken on the law
Wrong, While a president cannot abolish USAID outright due to its statutory foundation, they can significantly weaken its effectiveness through executive control. As head of the executive branch, the president appoints the USAID Administrator and sets overall policy direction, allowing them to influence how the agency operates. By proposing drastic budget cuts, the president can restrict funding, within the controls Congress allows. Additionally, the administration can shift USAID’s focus away from traditional development programs, redirecting resources to other priorities. Through hiring freezes, delays in appointing key leadership, or placing officials opposed to USAID’s mission in critical roles, the agency’s ability to function can be weakened. Furthermore, imposing additional bureaucratic hurdles, regulations, or oversight measures can slow down its operations to a halt. While these strategies wouldn’t formally eliminate USAID, they could make it functionally ineffective. This same process could effectively render the Dept. of Education defunct.

Much in the same way as executive orders rendered the Immigration Act functionally dead.

The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) of 1952 is the primary border and immigration law that has been heavily regulated, altered, and, at times, rendered functionally ineffective by executive actions. The INA established the framework for U.S. immigration policy, including border enforcement, visa categories, deportation procedures, and asylum regulations. However, over the years, multiple presidents have used executive actions to either expand or restrict its enforcement, often bypassing Congress.

One key section of the INA that has been frequently altered is Section 212(f), which gives the president broad authority to suspend the entry of non-citizens deemed "detrimental" to U.S. interests. This has been used for both strict border enforcement (e.g., Trump's travel bans) and more lenient policies (e.g., Biden limiting deportations). Similarly, asylum laws under the INA have been reshaped by executive action, such as through Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) under Obama or the Remain in Mexico policy under Trump, which was later rescinded by Biden.

Because of this executive overreach, different administrations have swung U.S. border policy in opposite directions without changing the underlying law, making it nearly impossible to establish a consistent or effective immigration system. The result is a legal framework that exists on paper but is functionally ineffective due to constant executive reinterpretation and selective enforcement.

If Congress didn't want the executive branch to mess with the law, then they need to stop giving the executive branch authority over it.
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@FLRW
Just the interest on the US Debt is $40,000 per person per year.

America has just the right president to declare America is bankrupt. Trump declared 7 bankruptcies in the last 5 decades.
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@n8nrgim
I think lawless coups 'can be morally and functionally justifiable.
Though it can depend on one's values.

My master, right or wrong is a troupe one see's in human history.
Related to people's ideas of values, oaths and honor.
Whether to individuals, current holders of power, law.
. . .

What worries me about unlawful revolutions is how they can make situations worse,
Iran as an example.
(From some points of view)

Or make unlawful revolution 'acceptable to others.
Then one 'keeps seeing 'unlawful revolutions.
. . .

Trump is limited by term limits and by his age.
He has not absolute power of a dictator.
. . .

Personally, I don't think the American Revolution was justified.
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@Lemming
Personally, I don't think the American Revolution was justified.
It was justified. The American people picked the sides.
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@Greyparrot
Are you incorrectly using artificial intelligence on this debate site? 

First u call usaid a creature of the executive controlled by the executive. Then I point out that the program is created by congress and can't be dissolved without congress but involves discretionary spending that is subject to congress yearly budget process. Point, even u just contradicted your original stance by admitting these things, it's not all subject to executive 

Trumps executive order dismantling the department of education is unlawful cause it was created by congress and things like student loans are mandatory spending not subject to yearly appropriation. 

The courts will probably uphold the law and void trumps executive orders except for the power to temporarily halt funding. Rubio will probably get congress to change the funding for us aid. 




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@n8nrgim
Another thing to consider, if the Democrat party continues on the path of "more of the same," which by every indication it looks like this is the trajectory for the next foreseeable 4 years, it's near guaranteed 8 years of a JD Vance type presidency. These 4th branch government agencies will be stripped clean over the next 12 years through executive action to the point that when Congress sneaks in a law to eliminate them for good, nobody will care.
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@Greyparrot
Why do u call them 4th branch? They are departments created by congress and often involve mandatory spending
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@Greyparrot
Trump is still the most unpopular president in recent history. I admit he's more popular with this blitz than ever before but he's still very unpopular. Dems will need to pick a loser to lose to vance. Dems often suck tho and vance is like a polished up version of trump, so it's possible tho still carries m7ch of trumps baggage
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@n8nrgim
Why do u call them 4th branch? They are departments created by congress and often involve mandatory spending

They are 4th branch because neither the Congress nor the Executive branch has total control over the day to day operations. They effectively operate outside those branches, and it's the reason why the CIA was able to use USAID for their coup projects all over the world, with or without the consent of any branch.

As for the Dept. of Education, 

The Department of Education functions as a "fourth branch" of government, operating with significant independence from both Congress and the executive branch.

Through its own internal control over federal funding and regulatory authority, it can enforce policies that discriminate against certain ethnic groups and target parents who hold opposing ideological views. By pushing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives, the department effectively pressures schools to adopt racial preferences that were never explicitly approved by Congress or the Executive branch, with non-compliant institutions facing the threat of funding cuts. Its Office for Civil Rights has the power to launch investigations based on vague or subjective complaints, targeting schools and parents who challenge these policies. Parents who speak out against gender ideology in schools or object to controversial sexual curriculum choices have been labeled as domestic threats and, in some cases, reported to federal authorities without legitimate cause. Because these actions are carried out through bureaucratic rulemaking rather than direct presidential orders or new laws, they persist regardless of changes in political leadership of both Congress and the Presidency. By leveraging its authority over education funding and unilaterally interpreting civil rights laws, the Department of Education bypasses traditional checks and balances, making it an unaccountable force that functions beyond the limits of the constitutional branches of government.
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@n8nrgim
Trump is still the most unpopular president in recent history

The democrats, on the other hand are currently at the worst historical favorability.

You have given me no evidence that the Democrats have any plan to reverse course. So far, it's a double down on more of the same.

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You have given me no evidence that the Democrats have any plan to reverse course. So far, it's a double down on more of the same.
The Democrates should step back and let them live with the president they elected. That democracy better or for worse.
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@n8nrgim
Loaded language. For one thing, there is no "unlawful coup". Whether the Administration's ongoing rescission/impoundment of appropriated funds is lawful or not (he's been in office less than 45 days, for one thing; for another, the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act's constitutionality will likely be challenged in courts soon), nothing about it has the character of trying to overthrow the government. If anything, he is rendering the Executive Branch, which is his purview, less powerful.

As for moral justification, I would say that depends on whether Trump's serious about slashing the deficit. We are $36 trillion in the hole, and when Republicans enjoyed a trifecta from 2017 to 2019 it went down as one of the least productive Congresses in history. In other words, waiting on Congress to balance the budget is a fool's errand. We know they won't do squat.
To quote Abraham Lincoln, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. And of course, a less prominent law than the Constitution cannot have the effect of a suicide pact either.
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@Swagnarok
To quote Abraham Lincoln, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. And of course, a less prominent law than the Constitution cannot have the effect of a suicide pact either.
You are quoting Abraham Lincoln the father of the civil war.
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@n8nrgim
You realize we have existed as a country without those departments, bureaus, and offices before, right?

Also… this isn’t remotely close to a coup. Where did you even get that idea from?
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@Shila
Hey.

Greenland, Gaza, Canada and the Gulf of Mexico.

HaHa.

Even with all that fancy military kit, you couldn't even subdue a raggle taggle army of Afghani goat herders.
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Had to say it’s a coup when it’s by the democratic majority.

And yes, hypocritically I argued it was a coup by a fertility cult in my last debate.
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@Barney
Would that make the other side a coup by an imported labor/fertility cult? 

Americans are so lazy! Not only do they not want the jobs, but also don't want the kids!
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@Mharman
Most of Trumps executive orders r illegal. My guess is that the courts will void them and congress will do its best to uphold them lawfully. But u r right in that it's not the first time and won't be the last that presidents have been out of line by executive order. The move to nullify the department of education is blatantly illegal and ballsy tho. 

The actions of musk r skirting the boundary of legality. Hes a temporary employee and doesn't have security clearances to be accessing all the data systems of all the agencies but he's doing it anywa6 and using trumps lawyers and congress to threaten retaliation for push back. I'd need to brush up on the law to see if it's definitely illegal but it does look like it and is at least a gray area