So save to VTLs for Sunday please
Albums Mafia: Track Three
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Last thing I’m gonna say: I was thinking about finding a probable teammate for both Whiteflame and Lunatic between Austin and Pie, which could act as a safe lynch if picking between Lunatic and Whiteflame gets too difficult.
The problem is I don’t know how I’m figuring that out.
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@Mharman
I suppose “I am the truth from which you run” could be investigative. I guess if it is one, it would be a tracker.I gotta ask: Why not choose “I give you all you need to know?”
because it sounded more like an overall information type of ability, where the one after it felt like an actual investigation based on it's adjective. I give you all you need to know could be more obtuse information, maybe give game design info or something, which might still be useful, but truth from which you run sounded more like a cop/robber situation, and I thought it was a cop ability and was hoping to get an innocent or guilty verdict on my target. Denial, guilt, and fear also sounded investigative, but lacking the adjective I wasn't really as sure on that one, so I stuck with the one that sounded safest as an investigation role to me. The hate in which you hide, I figured was either a hider or hated for a day, lover in your bed sounded like maybe either a protective role, or a role that could screw you over by tying you to the night kill or lynch target, and silencing machine seems like a silencer.
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@Mharman
I made the decision to claim a different role after Earth’s flip revealed his role to see if anyone else would claim TrackerFeels quite convenient
It was my call to hide that aspect of my role and see if anyone would bite. Guarantee Luna wouldn’t have claimed to use a Tracker role if I had been forthright.
If Lunatic is scum, who would his teammate be?
Austin’s my current. I think Luna’s putting some stark distance between the two of them by pushing back on anticlaim. Also, note that Austin hasn’t responded to any of Luna’s points against anticlaim, which was a theory Austin presented. They have had more interactions this DP over the Strengthener role, but I could see that being staged. I could see a case for either you or Pie, but those both seem significantly weaker.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
I’d like to point out just a couple of the fundamental assumptions you have to buy for me to be scum from Luna’s explanation:
- There is a Miller in the game solely to act as negative utility to an unknown, compulsive, 1X role Casey had. Remember, it was Luna who started this whole conversation sussing my Cop claim by questioning why there would be a Miller for a 1X Cop. Looks like he has come around to an idea that’s far less certain and, to my knowledge, has no precedence in any game. If someone can point to a game where someone had a bunch of 1X hidden roles and a negative utility role was created just to counter one of those roles, I’m all ears.
- That there was definitely a Bus Driver. Luna keeps pushing this argument that there must have been a Bus Driver in play and that that’s the only explanation for why Mharman got his result. He conveniently skipped out on engaging in any discussion of anticlaim or other mechanics that could be in play until this DP and hand-waves away an important part of the OP as either bastard modding or so basic that it didn’t require mentioning. The Bus Driver is one mechanic that might explain the result. It is not the only one, and the fact that WyIted basically full claimed before DP1 ended indicates that he was likely punished for doing so.
- You would have to believe I was on both lynches. This is the most blatantly false part of Luna’s narrative because, and I encourage everyone to check this, I was not on WyIted’s lynch when he self-hammered. I had a rather long discussion with WyIted after hopping off his lynch, only for Earth and WyIted himself to seal the deal. Anyone wonder why I was townreading the Miller aspect of WyIted’s claim back in DP2? I was trying to be subtle about it because I hadn’t used my Cop role yet, but I had the most reason to townread his Miller claim, which is why I was so hesitant to go ahead with the lynch. If you want to scumread me for being on GP’s wagon or because Earth thought I was sus for over clarifying a post, be my guest, but this is Luna isn’t even Luna grasping at straws. It’s just straight up lying.
Meanwhile, what does Luna have in his favor? Claiming that Pie didn’t visit NP1. Setting aside the chance that they’re just scum partners and Pie’s the Godfather (not my theory atm), Pie had already softed his claim at this point, he had already stated that he hadn’t visited Mharman or Casey, Luna or his partner could have used a Stalker or Role Cop to determine this, and even if none of this is true, he could have just taken a risk. Results, including mine, were bound to be scrutinized and disbelieved this DP and we already know there’s been some fuckery based on Mharman’s results from NP1. He likely would have just pushed a different explanation for what happened if Pie had said he visited. The risk of being wrong was negligible at best.
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@Mharman
So I’m looking at Casey’s role a bit more. I kinda overlooked this, but the role being compulsive definitely makes this negative utility imo. In fact, all six of these could be bad for town. The lover and silencer are pretty obvious, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the other four were likewise given that they’re all compulsive and Casey doesn’t know. Could be a pick your poison for Casey.it is possible that some of these roles actually help town. Regardless, I wonder if any of her roles had something to do with my results on Wytled
Missed this post. I hadn’t given much thought to Casey’s other roles or the compulsory nature of their role. It’s possible some of these were negative utility, but it would be a shot in the dark to try and guess which one could have been used which way, and even harder to say who Casey used it on and what the effect was.
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@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Interesting in whiteflames response, in regards to point number 1 he basically is scum slipping.
There is a Miller in the game solely to act as negative utility to an unknown, compulsive, 1X role Casey had
This is literally the role he is claiming, a 1x investigator, with a 1x tracker. Again, like I said in my analysis this is whiteflame trying to sell the existence of two joat's, one with 6 abilities, none of which can be investigative, for it is HE who is the actual investigative role. See the problem with this?
His second point responding is more engagement around WIFOMing that the mod is engaging in bastard mechanics. He shames me for not discussing this with him more, but why would I? Bastard mechanics are the whole narrative upon which he is selling how things could have worked, why would I or anyone buy that cerulean, a first time mod who has gained respect as a player in this community would randomly punish town by fvcking with their results, over believing that a bus driver exists?! A busdriver is a fairly common role. He doesn't want you to believe this, because it's probably exactly what happened when he bus drove himself with wylted DP 2. He doesn't want you to believe this because then it clears mharman as a mislynch target and also makes austin look good, who he is also trying to paint as a mislynch target.
Trying to accuse me of lying about him being on the wylted lynch is funny. Yeah maybe his actual vote didn't get placed on wylted, but that doesn't negate the posts I pointed out. Wylted being impulsive as he was stole the ability for whiteflame to hammer, but whiteflame had every intention of doing it, so does him not actually doing it matter when he basically indicated he would in this post: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12102-albums-mafia-track-two?page=5&post_number=121
"If someone else wants to hammer you in the time it takes me to come back, so be it."
This was another easy mislynch for mafia that whiteflame was ready and willing to take advantage of after basically getting a free lynch on GP. Again I was on neither of these mislynches, and had plenty of oppertunity to be on either of them, and could have justified both as well. I was posting about my activity dp1, if I had a mafia partner pinging me I could have easily voted GP with little justification, and didn't because I generally wasn't caught up or aware of what was going on, something that mafia have the luxury of having a partner for.
Whiteflame's story here stinks bad, and points in all directions of him being scum. I won't be on til later on today as I will be asleep, I imagine Whiteflame will use that oppertunity to control the narrative, but I don't really have much more to say about it anyway, so the fate of the game is in your hands, pie, austin, mharman. One of you is scum, but that's a problem for tomorrow. Today we should be lynching whiteflame. I am more than happy to wait until sunday to vote as per mharman, no rush here.
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Alright, I have like a minute and based on what I’ve read, here’s a question I would like everyone to answer because it will help move everything along:
Does everyone here think I am town?
I ask because from my POV, it makes the game clearer. If I am town, the scum line is exactly Austin/Mharman and Lunatic/Whiteflame. One from each of the pools. Everyone in this game is capable of bussing their partners and everyone has something going against them but I haven’t heard much about how I am scum. If we all agree that I am town, I can lead the town (will be hard cause my girl won’t let me use my phone, but I’ll sneak it somehow). I just need each of you to post your exact scum team and reasons why. I will analyze all the DPs. All the information, and make a post with my vote on Sunday at some point. Right now everything is so convoluted we don’t know who to believe, so I am proposing this.
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@ILikePie5
Alright, I have like a minute and based on what I’ve read, here’s a question I would like everyone to answer because it will help move everything along:Does everyone here think I am town?I ask because from my POV, it makes the game clearer. If I am town, the scum line is exactly Austin/Mharman and Lunatic/Whiteflame. One from each of the pools. Everyone in this game is capable of bussing their partners and everyone has something going against them but I haven’t heard much about how I am scum. If we all agree that I am town, I can lead the town (will be hard cause my girl won’t let me use my phone, but I’ll sneak it somehow). I just need each of you to post your exact scum team and reasons why. I will analyze all the DPs. All the information, and make a post with my vote on Sunday at some point. Right now everything is so convoluted we don’t know who to believe, so I am proposing this.
I am hesitant in LYLO to call anyone town confirmed, but it would be pretty hard to justify lynching you based on my result lining up with your claim. Also I think WF is scum and I kind of think he was trying to use your result to get town cred. You would have to be exactly the godfather to be scum, or maybe lucky enough to use a ninja last night. It's possible, but for now it just kind of seems more likely that you would be town I guess. You aren't immediately on my radar.
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@Lunatic
Interesting in whiteflames response, in regards to point number 1 he basically is scum slipping.There is a Miller in the game solely to act as negative utility to an unknown, compulsive, 1X role Casey hadThis is literally the role he is claiming, a 1x investigator, with a 1x tracker. Again, like I said in my analysis this is whiteflame trying to sell the existence of two joat's, one with 6 abilities, none of which can be investigative, for it is HE who is the actual investigative role. See the problem with this?
A. None of what you've said here follows from that statement. I said that your case against me necessitates that Casey must have had at least two hidden investigative roles - Tracker and Cop - and that WyIted's Miller role exists solely for the purpose of being negative utility to the latter.
B. My point was never that Casey had no investigative roles. I've said it a few times in different ways, but I'll state it concisely here: Casey could most definitely have had investigative roles, it just doesn't follow that Casey's investigative roles would necessarily be Tracker and Cop. Your case is reliant on those two existing among Casey's roles, despite not knowing what any of those roles are based on the flip. Even with my claims, Casey could have had anything from a Watcher to a Lie Detector that wouldn't have been CC'd by me.
His second point responding is more engagement around WIFOMing that the mod is engaging in bastard mechanics. He shames me for not discussing this with him more, but why would I? Bastard mechanics are the whole narrative upon which he is selling how things could have worked, why would I or anyone buy that cerulean, a first time mod who has gained respect as a player in this community would randomly punish town by fvcking with their results, over believing that a bus driver exists?! A busdriver is a fairly common role. He doesn't want you to believe this, because it's probably exactly what happened when he bus drove himself with wylted DP 2. He doesn't want you to believe this because then it clears mharman as a mislynch target and also makes austin look good, who he is also trying to paint as a mislynch target.
So the apparently bastard mechanic that was receiving widespread discussion across the first two DPs didn't warrant any response from Lunatic at any point before this? It didn't because there was no value in engaging in that discussion for Luna at that time. He now sees value in limiting the number of available options for how Mharman was visited by WyIted down to just being the Bus Driver so that he can implicate me, so now it's useful to argue that anticlaim mechanics are inherently bastard. Also, note that I've never - not once in this DP or elsewhere - dismissed the possibility of a Bus Driver. That's another very deliberate mischaracterization.
Trying to accuse me of lying about him being on the wylted lynch is funny. Yeah maybe his actual vote didn't get placed on wylted, but that doesn't negate the posts I pointed out. Wylted being impulsive as he was stole the ability for whiteflame to hammer, but whiteflame had every intention of doing it, so does him not actually doing it matter when he basically indicated he would in this post: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12102-albums-mafia-track-two?page=5&post_number=121"If someone else wants to hammer you in the time it takes me to come back, so be it."This was another easy mislynch for mafia that whiteflame was ready and willing to take advantage of after basically getting a free lynch on GP. Again I was on neither of these mislynches, and had plenty of oppertunity to be on either of them, and could have justified both as well. I was posting about my activity dp1, if I had a mafia partner pinging me I could have easily voted GP with little justification, and didn't because I generally wasn't caught up or aware of what was going on, something that mafia have the luxury of having a partner for.
So now Luna's changing his story from "WF has been on the lynch for the past two mislynches" to "he indicated that he might hammer if no one else did." Substantial shift there. As for Luna not being on either of these lynches, that's not particularly indicative of anything. There was significant momentum behind both lynches regardless of his intervention. Staying off the lynches because he was absent for much of the DP, even if he had opportunities to hop on both, isn't indicative of anything since he didn't push back on either lynch that I can see.
Whiteflame's story here stinks bad, and points in all directions of him being scum. I won't be on til later on today as I will be asleep, I imagine Whiteflame will use that oppertunity to control the narrative, but I don't really have much more to say about it anyway, so the fate of the game is in your hands, pie, austin, mharman. One of you is scum, but that's a problem for tomorrow. Today we should be lynching whiteflame. I am more than happy to wait until sunday to vote as per mharman, no rush here.
What I find interesting is that there are large swaths of my argument Luna just conveniently left out.
He ignores the fact that, in his narrative, the Miller only exists as negative utility to a hidden role we still don't know even exists, something I and, it seems, Luna (given his lack of response on this) have never seen in any game setup.
He still hand-waves away an element of the OP that several of us have drawn attention to over the entire game, just calling it bastard modding instead of recognizing that it's practically a given for there to be a mechanic - whether it comes from the mod or other players - that punishes character or role claiming. The only question is what the punishment was, though Luna doesn't seem interested in engaging with it.
For all you talk about my attempt "to control the narrative," you certainly don't seem interested in engaging with my main points.
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@ILikePie5
Alright, I have like a minute and based on what I’ve read, here’s a question I would like everyone to answer because it will help move everything along:Does everyone here think I am town?I ask because from my POV, it makes the game clearer. If I am town, the scum line is exactly Austin/Mharman and Lunatic/Whiteflame. One from each of the pools. Everyone in this game is capable of bussing their partners and everyone has something going against them but I haven’t heard much about how I am scum. If we all agree that I am town, I can lead the town (will be hard cause my girl won’t let me use my phone, but I’ll sneak it somehow). I just need each of you to post your exact scum team and reasons why. I will analyze all the DPs. All the information, and make a post with my vote on Sunday at some point. Right now everything is so convoluted we don’t know who to believe, so I am proposing this.
I have the most reason to townread you based on my Cop result, it's pretty plain and simple for me. It's possible you're the Godfather, but given your claim (which would be particularly odd for someone trying to push a given lynch at LYLO), you're not acting as I would expect you to as scum. That being said, I know you've done this before. Despite being a very late claim in the Paper Mario game, you claimed Vanilla and you were the Godfather. I guess my gutread is that you wouldn't do almost literally the exact same thing (you're not claiming Vanilla this time, but it's still a role that can't be confirmed) and just so happen to be Godfather again. Outside of that particular scenario or one where you've been Lawyered at a very opportune time, I believe you're town, and at least for this DP, I'm banking on that.
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@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
At this point, though I think there are other issues in play, this is mainly an issue of mechanics as far as I'm concerned. We can talk about anticlaim and the various ways Mharman could have received that result, we can talk about who was on what lynch for how long and what reasons, or we can just focus in on the key issue at play: the existence of WyIted as a Miller in the game and Casey's known hidden role, compulsive JOAT.
If you guys buy that it's a probable setup for a Miller to exist solely for the of functioning as negative utility to an unknown JOAT role (and, seriously, if anyone knows of a game where this kind of thing was used in a setup, please point me to it), then you're sussing me.
If you buy that a Miller could only exist in a game with a known Cop role somewhere in play, then you're sussing Luna.
So, yes, I think this is a 1v1 situation. Either he's right or I am at this point. I know we've gotten into long arguments before when we were both town, but this feels different, and I feel more confident in this situation than I have in prior ones.
That being said, it's not up to me. I've made clear what my view is, so it's up to all of you at this point. I'll respond to other questions, but that's my case at base and I don't feel a need to add to it further than you've already seen in my responses.
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@ILikePie5
I’ll get back to you on scum teams after more thought on Whiteflame and Lunatic.
As for you, not sure. You’ve said one thing that seems pretty genuine. I pointed it out because it feels like a moment of honesty at a time while scum is more likely to be focused on their agenda.
Other than that, not much. I’m not the biggest fan of your claim, but I can tell this is a weird setup, so anything’s possible I guess. This feels counterintuitive but I want to give you points for scumreading Greyparrot, Wylted, and Earth. Yeah you could be piggybacking of my logic on Grey and Wylted, and finding an easy ish frame on Earth, but I get the sense all three of them put themselves in position to be scumread. I’m definitely biased but it’s hard for me to blame you on that.
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@whiteflame
A. None of what you've said here follows from that statement. I said that your case against me necessitates that Casey must have had at least two hidden investigative roles - Tracker and Cop - and that WyIted's Miller role exists solely for the purpose of being negative utility to the latter.
From my POV it has to, based on the visits with mharmans role and not accounting for the busdriver. The case town can buy into is that a 2x investigative JOAT is unlikely to exist when theres a 6x godly JOAT, I already have reason to suspect your claim is bs based on the fact that you are likely the busdriver.
B. My point was never that Casey had no investigative roles. I've said it a few times in different ways, but I'll state it concisely here: Casey could most definitely have had investigative roles, it just doesn't follow that Casey's investigative roles would necessarily be Tracker and Cop.
Either way your admitting to crazy balance scheme that is just less likely to exist, two powerful JOATS with investigative abilities, or the more likely option... You didn't claim an investigative role til LYLO because it seemed safe to do so. It just doesn't add up.
Your case is reliant on those two existing among Casey's roles, despite not knowing what any of those roles are based on the flip. Even with my claims, Casey could have had anything from a Watcher to a Lie Detector that wouldn't have been CC'd by me.
Like I said above it also mentions that your visit on np1 was unnacounted for when we know a manipulation role exists. From My pov it cant be austin, likely isnt pie, and wasn't mharman. Who else could have manipulated the result? Pie technically under the circumstances both are results on him were extremely convenient and lucky for him. I'll admit it's possible I just don't buy it.
Don't have time to really respond to the rest, but i got the glaring lies from whiteflame addressed.
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@Lunatic
.
The case town can buy into is that a 2x investigative JOAT is unlikely to exist when theres a 6x godly JOAT
Why did you refer to Casey’s JOAT as “godly”? It has more roles, but I don’t see how that modifier applies. Casey didn’t know any of those roles. You’re the only one who claims to know one of them. As Mharman suggested, several of them could be negative utility, and it’s a compulsive use, so what part of this is “godly”?
Either way your admitting to crazy balance scheme that is just less likely to exist, two powerful JOATS with investigative abilities
That “scheme” or something similar to it is heavily implied from the OP, something you’ve addressed with a shrug so far. WyIted claimed and was likely punished for it. No explanation from you of where that punishment resolved.
Having two JOATs who do have the same investigative abilities and two JOATs who could have different investigative abilities are very different scenarios. The former is exceedingly unlikely, I agree, which makes your case for Casey having both of the same abilities I claimed similarly implausible. The latter is plausible, particularly with known manipulation thereof.
Like I said above it also mentions that your visit on np1 was unnacounted for when we know a manipulation role exists.
Again, all predicated on the notion that there must be a Bus Driver, and that anyone who visited Mharman couldn’t have used it (wouldn’t be a first for scum to be able to use multiple roles and visit multiple targets). By that metric, you could be the Bus Driver. Your visit to Pie wasn’t accounted for, either. Guess you’re leaving yourself out of that consideration as well, or are you going to claim that your presenting the option of a Bus Driver means we shouldn’t implicate you?
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@AustinL0926
Here's a thought:
I notice how last DP, Cerulean went out of his way to say, "The game is not over."
How could the game be over after 2 mislynches in a 7v2?
Unless, it isn't a 7v2. I can imagine a third party survivor asking Cerulean if the game is over (assuming they aren't killed in the night), and Cerulean answering it there.
A 6v2v1 setup would be pretty bastard, but given the fuckery that undoubtedly exists in the setup, I can imagine it being here because Cerulean clearly doesn't know what he's doing here... I think he hasn't quite grasped the rolemad game style yet, from a design standpoint.
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@Mharman
I can’t dismiss the existence of a TP or neutral party this point, since it could be 2-2-1 and the game could still be on, I just don’t think it’s the most likely realization of that line from the OP, since all the flips and my Cop result have been town-aligned. I think the post about the game not being over came in response to multiple statements from WyIted about there being some mechanic to end the game last DP.
I'm following along with everything, just not replying to much because it's taking a lot of energy and time just to process the mechanics.
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@Mharman
I notice how last DP, Cerulean went out of his way to say, "The game is not over."
Scum could technically achieve parity if they had an extra kill or smth, although that's borderline bastard. But I can see him adding that in regardless of whether there's a TP or not, just to make it clear the game continues.
I'm still heavily leaning town on WF just for Wylted's Miller. It specifically mentions alignment investigations, which precludes Tracker shenanigans. I don't buy that it exists solely to counter a single one of Casey's abilities. I find it much more likely that there's a specific role, i.e. WF's, which investigates alignments.
If there's a Miller without a Cop, we just blame Cerulean postgame tbh. Nothing you can do against that.
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Day 3, Votecount 2
Approximately 23 hours and 40 minutes remain.
Approximately 23 hours and 40 minutes remain.
It's quiet. Nobody has placed any votes.
Majority is 3.
Mentioning all alive as your reminder that less than a day remains.
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@Lunatic
Assuming Whiteflame is scum, who is the most likely teammate?
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@AustinL0926
I'm still heavily leaning town on WF just for Wylted's Miller. It specifically mentions alignment investigations, which precludes Tracker shenanigans. I don't buy that it exists solely to counter a single one of Casey's abilities. I find it much more likely that there's a specific role, i.e. WF's, which investigates alignments.
whiteflame is literally claiming 1x cop, when we already have a flipped 6x JOAT. Your telling me you don't think a cop ability exists in any of those 6 abilities, and that a 2x investigative JOAT exists along side a 6x JOAT?
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@Mharman
Assuming Whiteflame is scum, who is the most likely teammate?
I have no clue. I town read you for reasons mentioned previously, but its mostly based on WIFOM. It's hard to see pie as a the partner with my result lining with his claim, unless he got extremely lucky. Austin is being sussed by WF, so if it's austin then WF is bussing. I don't have a hard read on the partner at the moment.
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@AustinL0926
You haven’t answered my question yet…
I don’t have much more to add besides the fact that I’m confident there’s one scum between Luna/WF, and I’m having a hard time decide. I like WF’s point about the Miller leading to a dedicated Investigative role, but the change to Tracker rubbed me the wrong way. On the other hand, I like Luna’s point about the voting patterns. I’m a firm believer that scum are on wagons for the most part.
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@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Can yall explain why you are town and the other tagged may be scum?
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@ILikePie5
I'm really struggling with that.
I think there's exactly one scum in Luna/WF - i.e. never town v town, never paired.
The easy explanation is just that Mharman yoloed last DP and hoped the crazy mech would get him out of it, but it just feels so unlikely?
Which would leave you, but you're cleared by an investigation by at least one townie, unless Luna/WF are both scum, in which case you're town anyway.
So idk. What's your read on Mharman?
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@whiteflame
whiteflame is literally claiming 1x cop, when we already have a flipped 6x JOAT. Your telling me you don't think a cop ability exists in any of those 6 abilities, and that a 2x investigative JOAT exists along side a 6x JOAT?
A cop ability could exist. But why is there a dedicated miller for a single JOAT ability that the user doesn't even know what it does?