So somewhat of a CC here.
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So here’s my take: I think scum’s strategy was to push for my lynch this DP, but they’ve switched and now want to buddy.
The question is if Whiteflame was the cause for their switch, or a preemptive call Whiteflame decided to make in the moment. Ultimately, given what Pie said at the very start, I get the sense he’d be giving the green light to go for me, so why wouldn’t Whiteflame be taking it? I feel like he’d at least do more to keep his options open, no? He seems pretty set on the idea that I am town.
The way whiteflame revealed that claim is towny imo. Also reads as a unnecessary play to make as scum considering he's been pretty much universally townread for his claim with Wylted being Miller.
He could be doing it to take heat off his buddy, but who? Mharman and Pie are both townread, I know I'm town, and he's directing his sus to Luna.
So... yeah, I believe it.
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@whiteflame
I won't be on til tonight to really respond to anything in depth here, but you realize how much of a stretch that is to say that is a CC when casey was essentially a JOAT right? Also even if we were to buy that it was a CC, you are doing this at MYLO so it should be completely taken with a grain of salt. I am not going to argue what you thought caseys role sounded better as, I was told by the mod it was a tracker plain and simple, so debate in that area is pretty pointless.
If all we are "clearing" you off of though is the existence of a miller, but you are also arguing that the mod included bastard mechanics like "anti-claims" it's interesting you are dead set on believing its not bastard but willing to use the logic that a miller can't exist without more than a 1x cop (which is essentially what you are), and potentially essentially something casey has in my example I used that you tried advocating againt.
Anyways I don't like WF's claim, but I am not going to omgus him, I'll sleep on it and post later tonight. I am still unwilling to dismiss what's going on with the busdriver thing.
Lunatic’s logic is sound. I’ll give him that.
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@ILikePie5
Alright I’m here. Good lord, women 🙄.
Lollll.
Good on you for putting your phone down for the girl’s bday tho.
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@whiteflame
Alright. I could see this being a fake claim given that it’s an excuse for you to survive the next NP despite being townread by two results, but as I said before, I’m trusting my Cop result on you for this DP, so I’ll think about this more later.
If I was scum, I would kill the Investigator (ie you). Unless you’re scum, I don’t die tonight. I also soft claimed my character on first page of DP1, and had every possible claim open to claim
Gtg
I won't be on til tonight to really respond to anything in depth here, but you realize how much of a stretch that is to say that is a CC when casey was essentially a JOAT right? Also even if we were to buy that it was a CC, you are doing this at MYLO so it should be completely taken with a grain of salt. I am not going to argue what you thought caseys role sounded better as, I was told by the mod it was a tracker plain and simple, so debate in that area is pretty pointless.
I've claimed a JOAT myself, and the notion that Cerulean would choose to include two different JOATs with the same role certainly isn't impossible, but the idea that he'd specifically choose to give Tracker to two separate players seems a little dubious, especially considering all the other roles he could have chosen as alternates along similar lines (e.g. Watcher, Motion Detector).
I expect that everyone's going to take this with a substantial grain of salt, and it should be. That being said, what the role actually was is a minor point from my post.
If all we are "clearing" you off of though is the existence of a miller, but you are also arguing that the mod included bastard mechanics like "anti-claims" it's interesting you are dead set on believing its not bastard but willing to use the logic that a miller can't exist without more than a 1x cop (which is essentially what you are), and potentially essentially something casey has in my example I used that you tried advocating againt.
I said there's good reason to believe that some system is in place to punish claiming. It's right in the OP, and I already addressed why I believe it exists - I can't see any response here to my reasoning on that front. Also, you were the one who said "does a miller exist for a 1x cop ability?". I never said that a Miller couldn't exist with only a 1X Cop. All I said was that it indicated the existence of any Cop, and that we can't know that Casey had a Cop role. I also pointed out that it's even more dubious to argue that a Miller exists solely for an unknown role Casey might have had.
Anyways I don't like WF's claim, but I am not going to omgus him, I'll sleep on it and post later tonight. I am still unwilling to dismiss what's going on with the busdriver thing.
Guess I'll see how you respond to the above about my claim and Casey's flip. I'll note that I didn't dismiss your Bus Driver argument.
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@ILikePie5
If I was scum, I would kill the Investigator (ie you). Unless you’re scum, I don’t die tonight. I also soft claimed my character on first page of DP1, and had every possible claim open to claim
I don't think it's plausible for you to die tonight in any scenario, but point taken on the softclaim and available choices.
This game is trippy af. I don’t know what to believe.
Day 3, Votecount 1
Approximately 48 hours remain.
Approximately 48 hours remain.
It's quiet. Nobody has placed any votes.
Majority is 3.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
At this point, we need to start giving clear reads.
I think I've made clear enough that my top choice for a lynch this DP is Luna, though I'd like to give him time to respond in full. The Gravedigger role is now impossible to verify and obtained a role identical to one of mine. If it was the Cop, I could at least see a case for saying that the existence of the Miller makes more sense with more shots on the board, but having two 1X Tracker roles on the only two town JOATs would be some lazy modding and I don't buy it.
Pie's easy enough with my Cop result. If you believe that Luna is town, then he has a Tracker result that supports his role not being an active one/his not having committed the NK in one NP. I realized in the shower that I was a little much in seeing this as a reason why Pie might survive the NP. If we do hit scum and survive this NP, it'll be 2-1, so unless we collectively decided to NL at that point, it doesn't really matter if scum have access to an NK or not. So I don't see why he'd benefit from this as a fake claim beyond it just being unverifiable.
Mharman is an open question based on whether he's pulling a mighty gambit to great effect. It wouldn't have been the most obvious way to secure a lynch on WyIted, and it necessarily drew attention to him after WyIted's flip. His response this DP makes me townread him behaviorally, and that's consistent with what I saw from him before.
That leaves Austin. The claim is a little sus to me in general, since we haven't heard of anyone being clearly redirected (if WyIted had been, he would have recruited Mharman) or RB'd. I think we would have seen something along those lines if there was a manipulative role that could be affected by a Strengthener. I had a strong townread on him earlier, but I'm no longer convinced. It's not a strong sus, but it's stronger than I have for Pie or Mharman at this stage.
Almost to work, will be posting shortly.
Got a CPR training I have to do right away. It will be at least another hour.
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@whiteflame
I made the decision to claim a different role after Earth’s flip revealed his role to see if anyone else would claim Tracker
Feels quite convenient
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@whiteflame
The rest of your claim checks out I suppose
Killed Night 1:A lifetime of fucking things up fixedin one determined flashCaseyYou are The Downward Spiral! https://open.spotify.com/album/7a7arAXDE0BiaMgHLhdjGF?si=gS9WxzqhTGqsd6BAuM7ypQThis 1994 album, released by the Nine Inch Nails, reflects, well, a downward spiral. The mentality of the "main character" of the album gets worse and worse throughout, eventually ending in his suicide. He suffers from increasingly harmful delusions. As a result, you are the Town Nightmarish God.Your goal is to eliminate all Mafia-aligned players and any other players who wish to see the Town lose.You have the following abilities:Delusions (Compulsive, 6-shot): You must choose one of the following actions and a target each Night. Each action may only be used once, and you will be informed what each action did afterward.- I am the hate you try to hide- I am the silencing machine- I am the lover in your bed- I give you all you need to know- I am the truth from which you run- I am denial, guilt and fear
So I’m looking at Casey’s role a bit more. I kinda overlooked this, but the role being compulsive definitely makes this negative utility imo. In fact, all six of these could be bad for town. The lover and silencer are pretty obvious, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the other four were likewise given that they’re all compulsive and Casey doesn’t know. Could be a pick your poison for Casey.
it is possible that some of these roles actually help town. Regardless, I wonder if any of her roles had something to do with my results on Wytled
“I give you all you need to know” seems to be the only one that sounds good.
I didn't want to jump straight into a WF case because of OMGUS, but actually the more I think about it the more I think it has to be whiteflame. First off, I believe mharman. The argument that he would have faked all that to get a mislynch on wylted is wild. Not out of the realm of possibility for other players, but mharman's whole appeal to me in the last game we played together is "I don't take risks like that as mafia" and at the end of they day he was right and was town Ultimately we lynched him there because of a CC, but I had dismissed him before due to wifom, and I don't want to do that again. Also there are too many other variables to dismiss as well if we are to assume mharman is scum, for one the austin result which happens to line up with what austin claimed he did.
So if I am to assume mharman is telling the truth, then the only situation where wylted could have been messed with is if there was a busdriver, no one besides whiteflame has offered an alternative to this theory, and ultimately I just dis-agree with whiteflames interpretation of cerulean openly admitting to bastard modding, its not even worth debating in my eyes, we just got done with a bastard game that people were generally so unhappy with they wanted to just skip to the next game after dp1, and cerulean is just going to blatantly bastard mod the very next game, not to mention his first game, after being considered a very serious player here by our community? I don't buy it, and I still think the mechanics he was referring to are in reference to role mechanics, not mod mechanics designed to arbitrarily fvck with town. So for the bus driver theory to work, someone else HAD to visit mharman with austin and bus themselves with wylted. Austin is already accounted for on that lynch, earth said he didn't visit him (plus we know he's town), my results seem to indicate that pie is a passive role like he claims, so from my perspective the only other living player that could have been behind the visit is whiteflame who bussed himself with wylted to get a mislynch.
So this is the major reason for my case against whiteflame but here is the rest of my case outlining why this is him.
2 Town JOAT's and the miller
Whiteflames major claim to innocence for himself is the fact that he is claiming an investigative role (cop) and that there can't be a miller without a cop. Even if you look past the fact that this claim was made in LYLO, you now have to factor in that we already know there is a JOAT that is flipped in the graveyard. Whiteflame believes his result on pie reflects pie's innocence, however my result goes even farther and shows pie not visiting anyone, which would be a wild guess if I am scum unless I was a scum scout, or pie was my scum partner. The fact that I have a tracker result though indicates that a second tracker DOES exist despite the fact in some regard though, unless whiteflame wants to take back believing his result and innocence on pie, unless he would like to justify pie as a ninja who can self lawyer, or just a godfather and claim my result is lucky as hell. So tell me what is more believable, and what we see more often in these mafia games. That there is 2 JOAT's on the town side, or a town JOAT and more likely one mafia JOAT?
Yes think casey had all the investigative abilities in his role PM. The dude has 6 abilities, and your telling me there is a second JOAT on top of that with separate JOAT abilities? Again how often do you see that in these type of games? It is way more likely mafia noticed there were no investigative roles claimed, and picked up on the fact that casey was likely holding them all, and hoped to use the cop claim for confirmation, and I think WF improvised CC'ing the tracker to pursue a mislynch. There is no real reason to lie about that, and its extremely convenient to CC like that in MYLO. Whiteflame wants us to believe there are two town JOATS with 8 abilities between them all.
Earth suspected whiteflame before he died.
In post 40 earth calls out WF as sus, clarifying in 45 that it is suspicious that whiteflame double clarifies something he considered to be obvious, which whiteflame shortly after admits to as being unnecessary. Earth later puts whiteflame closest to the bottom of his list next to pie of suspects in post 60. Earth dies last night. I mentioned in post 64 already how I thought this was suspicious, but if whiteflame is scum he doesn't want to head into LYLO with someone who scum reads him, so earth is the obvious kill for him there.
Whiteflame was on both mislynches
Normally I wouldn't place a ton of stock into an argument like this, mislynches happen, and sometimes theres very solid reasoning for town to participate on a mislynch. But whiteflame is the one who made this a one v one here, and ultimately both of us have to resort to wifom as there isn't really hard mechanics that confirm one of us or the other is mafia here. I haven't been on a single mislynch, and even was hesitant to lynch Wylted last day phase. Whiteflame was one of the biggest advocates behind mharman on that lynch (mharman makes sense given it was his results) but whiteflame went out of his way to push a case on wylted in posts 106 and 111 last day phase which seems overtly unneccesary given mharmans results and the fact that Wylted was probably dying anyway. It's as if he felt the need to over explain the reason he was lynching him because he knew wylted was town, and now since he's made this big case, can go back and justify being wrong about it because at least there was logic behind it. No one else was really pushing mharman this way who was on his wagon, they were literally just lynching off of results. Whiteflame was also the first person on greyparrots wagon, where we literally just had a game where grreyparrot gave up dp1 and allowed himself to be lynched. I know other people were on that lynch too, and maybe the lynch can ultimately be blamed on greyparrot, but mafia DOES have incentive to take advantage of these lynches. Absent as I was dp1, you don't think my scum partner would have been pinging me and telling me to at least make a minimal post to take advantage of an easy mislynch? It is rather obvious I was completely unaware of dp1 to the point where I couldn't have participated on that lynch, where as if I was scum I could let my scum partner fill me in on how to board the wagon and that I wouldn't appear scummy by doing so. I am presenting this more as an either/or argument than a catch all. Whiteflame has also prepared WIFOM arguments against me about not only my claim but about what "caseys role would actually" be so I expect plenty of WIFOM to come in the opposite direction.
This is all I really have though right now, and it's not the strongest case. If I am wrong about whiteflame I am willing to accept responsibility for it in the endgame, but ultimately I agree with whiteflame that it is probably unlikely for more than one investigative JOAT to exist. I am only asking you to believe the one that's already flipped, instead of buy into the narrative that town has 2 JOAT's, on top of a self watcher, a mason, and a doctor.
Who is whiteflames partner? I don't have the answer for that. I was leaning austin at first, but I am going away from that theory based on the fact that whiteflame is bussing him if he is, but not completely against it either. Austin has a visit a mharman though that looks good for him, though it's not entirely possible he couldn't have visited mharman and carried out the night kill, depending on how ceru mods. I highly doubt it is mharman for reasons I mentioned earlier, but it is a possibility. For it to be pie, from my POV pie would have to exactly be a passive role maybe a godfather or something, which would make sense with whiteflames result. But that possibility is just as likely as any of the other two options, and it does work out well that pie isn't a visiting role that can account for a night kill np1 unless he was an x shot and already used it. I don't know who whiteflame's partner is, but the only one I really don't think it is, is mharman.
For now I will settle on whiteflame as my prime scumread though based on all of the above, and am ready to throw down the gauntlet with him whenever.
I wouldn’t say the dichotomy is set in stone, but it’s definitely looking like there’s one scum between Lunatic and Whiteflame.
It’s a little tough to decide because I’m now wondering if I gave Whiteflame too quick of a pass.
Here’s a thought: Scum doesn’t have to be immediately looking for my lynch at the start of this DP.
My first thoughts when I got on for this were that a Lunatic-Austin/Pie team was planning to lynch me but switched up the second Whiteflame seemed unwilling to lynch me. But, Lunatic expressed last DP that he wanted to think more about how results could’ve been messed with. What this means is that, assuming he is town, the scum team may not commit as hard into pushing for my lynch come this DP.
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@ILikePie5
Btw, you saying you don’t know what to believe is something i can resonate with.
Straight facts.
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@ILikePie5
So, earlier you remarked Lunatic’s investigation and results on you were interesting. What is interesting about them and what do you think it implies?
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@whiteflame
If Lunatic is scum, who would his teammate be?
Personally, the only scum team combo I can’t see at all is Austin-Pie.
I can see a small way there’s a Whiteflame-Lunatic team but it’s very unlikely and scum hardbussing in MYLO when there’s so much confusion would be a very questionable strategy
Honestly, I’m just gonna go ahead and say that Whiteflame-Lunatic and Pie-Austin are off the table.
Which fells like a hit of duh but so little is what it seems here
* a bit of a duh
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@Lunatic
I suppose “I am the truth from which you run” could be investigative. I guess if it is one, it would be a tracker.
I gotta ask: Why not choose “I give you all you need to know?”
Still plenty of time btw