Trust the "Experts"

Author: ADreamOfLiberty

Posts

Total: 148
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
I've often ranted about the appeals to authority as often expressed "Trust the experts" or "Trust the science".

While I've been absolutely correct in those rants and in fully dismissing appeals to authority within unscoped debate, I don't think I've put it as succinctly as RFK does here:

Put all our faith in the technocrats. That's why this mantra of "trust the experts". Trusting the experts is not a feature of democracy, it is not a feature of science. It's a feature of religion, it's a feature of totalitarianism, but it's absolutely anathema to science and democracy.

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Didn't you say doctors found a dead worm in your head after it ate part of your brain?

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Indeed. I made a very similar topic/point a few years back:

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@cristo71

Are you and me the only pilots on this site now that IWRA is gone?
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,638
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
"Trust the science"
I am the science.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Best.Korea
I am the science.

Nice Dr. Fauci impression 
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
@Best.Korea
Mr. Science, you better watch out. Rand Paul was asking about you and he's got some muscle with him this time.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
I guess it’s Dr. Paul’s science vs Dr. Fauci’s science!
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@FLRW
Probably. I’ve flown with some pilots with some pretty cockamamie ideas, though…
TwoMan
TwoMan's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 379
1
2
3
TwoMan's avatar
TwoMan
1
2
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
If you do not trust experts or science, who or what do you trust to convey information that is true?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@TwoMan
If you do not trust experts or science, who or what do you trust to convey information that is true?
You must read carefully grasshopper.

I trust science. I do not trust people who assert things and then when asked for the reason respond "trust the science".

Science is a derivative of reason. Those who will not give reasons are not scientists.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Science isn't a question, or consensus.

It's the answer. And you don't need to be an expert to know an experiment is repeatable.

Repeatability is key: when an experiment can be replicated consistently by anyone, it shows that the findings aren't tied to a particular perspective or expertise but instead reveal something fundamental about the world. You don’t need a PhD to understand that boiling water creates steam, for example, because it’s repeatable and observable by anyone. At its best, science offers answers that stand up to scrutiny, regardless of who conducts the experiment. This universal point speaks to the beauty of science—it’s open to everyone and designed to withstand questioning, not because it’s about consensus, belief, or bias, but because it pursues universal, testable truths.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
RFK beat a brain worm. What's your excuse?
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
“Inject this new vaccine, or you lose your job. Because I trust the experts.”
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@cristo71
Wear this mask or lose your job. Even in your car alone.

5 years later: everyone masked got it anyway....40% of hospitalizations were from fully vaxxed...

thanks experts...
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
Greyparrot has me blocked. 

Someone correct me if I’m wrong..

Heating water above a certain point creates steam. Whilst you can boil room temperature water in a vacuum chamber to create unheated water vapour that isn’t steam. 
 
I’m being pedantic by the way. 
Moozer325
Moozer325's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 1,186
3
2
8
Moozer325's avatar
Moozer325
3
2
8
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Putting stake in the opinions of those who know more than you isn’t “blindly trusting” anyone, it’s just accepting that you don’t know everything, and other people do.

It’s not blindly trusting people if they publish the reasoning and science behind their claims. You can do your own research and listen to other people, they’re not mutually exclusive.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
“Inject this new vaccine, or you lose your job. Because I trust the experts.”
Yes, that is not an example of science. It is an appeal to authority.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
This universal point speaks to the beauty of science—it’s open to everyone and designed to withstand questioning, not because it’s about consensus, belief, or bias, but because it pursues universal, testable truths.
+1

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,551
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
It’s actually worse than that because the experts aren’t saying people’s jobs should be threatened, but the experts’ claims are still being used as an allegedly valid justification for the threat.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
It's actually reminiscent of the Spanish inquisition. Far be it from clergy to actually do violence, they're men of god! They just point out the heretics and then the Spanish crown burns them alive.

Everybody has a scapegoat.

Plus the level of mutilation I've seen in the game of telephone from published paper to tabloid to blog is at times astounding.

You can start with "certain entangled properties observed" and end with "Scientists say universe is created by imagination"

or "observed magnitude drop curvature consistent with atmosphere in planetary transit survey" and end with "alien cities discovered, scientists say"


There are only three main possibilities:
1.) You heard it from a static source you can't debate, all you can do is follow the citation, if you don't understand the article you just have to use fuzzy logic and assume it's true or false as your worldview biases you.
2.) You heard it from someone who claims to understand the science, in which case you can debate them to the point where you are convinced they do in fact know more than you; at which point you can choose to learn more or trust them.
3.) You heard it from someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about but expects you to just believe them because what THEY consider an authoritative source made the assertion.


I think the key is you need to be basically literate in science and we need to actually teach our kids so they are. Then you need to ignore anyone who won't engage in a scientific debate (3). Just ignore them. Tell them "thank you for informing me of this source, but if you can't make the arguments the scientists make you shouldn't be trying to convince others. That is the role of people who think they understand the arguments involved."


WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 5,462
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
I will try to tracknit down later, but recently saw a study that showed the vast majority of academic fraud supported left wing dogma and we know how hard it is to detect that kind of fraud. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@WyIted
There's a famous experiment where someone submitted 20 or so junk science articles and about half of them got published as fact.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
@WyIted
we know how hard it is to detect that kind of fraud. 
Well it's supposed to be easy.... because scientific experiments are supposed to be repeatable.

... but they've corrupted the journals to the point where they can package a bunch of speculation in field specific vernacular and get it published, evidence from experiments not required!
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
5 years later: everyone masked got it anyway....40% of hospitalizations were from fully vaxxed...
Same ole same old

1} False.  My self and many others have not gotten covid,

2} Truth. Vaccinations aid in reduction of detrimental symptoms of covid,

3} MADA { Make America Dumb Again } prefers falsehoods over truths,

4} MAFA { Make America Fat Again } is a reduction in intelligence { less healthy brain },

5} Intelligent people prefer repeating scientific truths over repeating democratic dumb and dumber,

6} 5 years later covid is still around tho not as contagious and that is due to;

......6a} vaccinations { intelligent mind over matter } and,

.......6b } biologic immunity increase over exposure time by dumb and intelligent combined.

7} ? 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
1} False.  My self and many others have not gotten covid,
Plenty of people got the sniffles and fought it off without getting tested for covid. Some people have healthy immune systems. Mask or no mask.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,169
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
Everybody has been exposed I guarantee it.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,972
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Taking into account that almost everyone has been in close proximity to others at some point over the past five years, and factoring in both the high transmissibility of various COVID variants (especially Omicron), I'd revise my estimate to around 99%. Given the extensive spread and the fact that many people were exposed even without symptoms, it's very likely almost everyone has had some level of exposure.

-AI
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
This is why I am an Atheist.
 
Prominent Christian televangelist and anti-vaccine advocate Marcus Lamb died after being hospitalized with Covid-19, his family announced.
Lamb founded Christian television network Daystar Television Network in 1997.
His wife Joni Lamb, announced the televangelist’s death on Daystar’s program streamed to Facebook. She said her husband had diabetes but was healthy and was hospitalized after being diagnosed with Covid-19.
“He never talked about that, but he had diabetes, but he kept it in check. He was very healthy, he ate healthy, he kept his weight down, and always kept his sugar at a good level. But with trying to treat Covid and the pneumonia, the different protocols that are used, including many of the protocols we talked about here on Daystar, and we used those, and I used them and breezed through Covid.

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Greyparrot

Why do you listen to Al Gore?