DP 2 attempting to set up a mislynch for the next day and hard push to lynch moozer instead of joebob, the confirmable town member https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11250-upick-mafia-dp2?page=6&post_number=167
UPick Mafia DP4
Posts
Total:
262
And another attempt to set up the next days lynch following the dp https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/11276-upick-mafia-dp3?page=4&post_number=104
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@Lunatic
@Barney
So now he’s trying to set up an argument. Very funny.
Who cares. I am not under any obligation to do so just pointing out a scum slip. You literally do not try to set up mislynches every single dp for the next dp as town. You typically just focus on the lynch in front of you and reinterpret things after the NP brings new information.
Rebuttal:
DP1 I used my magistrate on Wylted after he said “Cop Pie.” What happened to setting up the mislynch on Lunatic?
DP2 I already suspected that you lied because you were pushing back hard on being verified for perma lynchproof on DP2. I still let it go and focused on the lynch at hand because the argument was compelling and I thought Joe was false inventor.
DP3 is POE. Barney and Lunatic were basically confirmed from my perspective leaving Wylted and Earth
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@Lunatic
@Barney
Which lynch is scummier? Pie leading the lynch on Savant for using his role in an objectively scummy manner or Wylted using Moozer’s ”word slip” to lead the lynch on Joe?
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@ILikePie5
Why are you still talking? This is not a healthy new meta for the game.
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@ILikePie5
Which lynch is scummier? Pie leading the lynch on Savant for using his role in an objectively scummy manner or Wylted using Moozer’s ”word slip” to lead the lynch on Joe?
You agreed it was scummy and wanted to lead a lynch on the one who could be confirmed the next day instead of joebob which was obviously more sensible so that doesn't help your case.
Don't do this pie. This is not how you should be acting just lay down. This is essentially just begging at this point and the logic you are presenting is silly at best.
I also hate the insinuation that a POE lynch is bad. Lunatic and barney are definitely town, thag leaves you and it's honestly pretty obvious I am town and the arguments against me is claims you would use my role differently or I don't know if you misread your PM about being 1x vig proof you would fess up sooner or something.
It's dumb, and the evidence I half passed reading my PM was my attempts to get savant to put earth's vote on me dp1
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@ILikePie5
Which lynch is scummier? Pie leading the lynch on Savant for using his role in an objectively scummy manner or Wylted using Moozer’s ”word slip” to lead the lynch on Joe?
Honestly, in my analysis of the mislynches in post 73, I had wylted as being scummier for participating on the savant lynch because he flip flopped his stance on savant, had originally even said he was getting town vibes from him just to end up switching to voting him. I give him some leeway due to the fact that the day phase was close to ending with a no lynch if savant wasn't lynched soon, but I also didn't like the fact that he was trying to spin you as the guilty party for that since he also participated on the lynch. Which is why dp2 I was adamant about people who joined the wagon not being able to use that lynch against you.
I thought you participation was scummier on the joebob lynch though. Wylted felt like he genuinely believed he had caught scum there, whereas your participation was very eager to join that when you came back into the day phase after having caught up finally. As scum it would have been a pretty easy mislynch. Where I give you credit, is the fact that even I joined that wagon, because yeah the commuter thing was pretty wierd thing for moozer to say, when joebob had a commuter and hadn't said anything about it before moozer did. That said it was wierd that we lynched joebob for something that was contingent on moozer being scum for, and we were giving moozer a pass til next day phase. The lynch should have been redirected elsewhere if we were waiting on moozer conf. My excuse was that I wasn't active that day phase, but I am a bit suspicious of everyone else who was willing to let moozer confirm himself but still wanting to lynch joebob. You and wylted are both equally guilty in that regard. Again though, pot calling the kettle black with me also being on that lynch.
Ultimately, I am taking both of those mislynches into account here, but I am not placing too much stock in them because at the end of the day, it's generally better to lynch than to no lynch, and both mislynches happened close to time expiring, so it was one of those things.
Notification count
Lunatic = 6
Wyited = 6
Pie = 25
I learned this game from Vader, who does over posting freskouts when scum. This makes me wary.
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VIG
I am somewhat forgiving of a lot with the whole vigilante thing, since I tried to keep information compartmentalized away from scum. Hence when Wyited stated vanillased, I did not think he was referring to any rare power but merely pretending to have been role blocked (I had passed him the roleblocking bulletproof vest).
Still, I have asked the host if the shot would be lost from failing. I expect no answer on it, but I can wait on voting for an answer/non-answer.
Personally if scum, I would have used it on my partner if they were about to take the fall (as Casey was). ... If not already stated by anyone, the investigation on them outed after they were about to be lynched anyways, does not give much town cred (some yes, but it's a no-lose gambit if scum).
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GROUPCHAT
Wylted, Moozer, and Earth I believe? I need to check the final message or two they each posted in game. Could be a hint if Wyited is scum. On the other hand, if Pie is scum, separating Wyited from team groupchat, is an optimal play.
Them not agreeing to any kill... I need to ponder a bit.
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1. Pie is saying we should suspect Wylted for lying about his role, when our has added something about his role each day phase now. If he’s covering information for a not yet used role that’s fine, but it’s hypocrital of him to tell us to sus Wylted for doing the same.
- Both should be sused. I'd say the ploy is one that doesn't tell faction, but merely that he's thinking how to manipulate brand new players.
2. Do you think a role like mine would also exist along side a role that clarifies actions passively as killing? Also shouldn’t that have made pie suspect me when I claimed this role early day phase 2? Why didn’t he mention his role along side mine then? What harm was there to do it?
- I was pondering this already. It's also a reason he should have defended JoeBob.
3. He is trying to tell us that earth was wylteds night kill target and that your big shirt was used. If that’s the case where did the moozer kill come from? He said the second kill had to be by earths vig. But he doesn’t explain why earth would kill moozer. Why would we believe that earth would kill a confirmed innocent townie?
- I'm a little confused as to the earth vig power. I thought the three had to agree?
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NP3 DEATHS
In case I haven't said it enough... DAMNIT MOOZER! My instincts were good this game when a lot more people were alive, trust them when I hand you a vest.
I really don't get why scum have not killed me.
Lunatic having already been protected by me, and largely town confirmed by Casey attempting to kill, seems like an ideal target. With Earth, it was a flip of a coin for if they would be protected by me.
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WYITED's ABILITY
Yeah, odd that he didn't get any trains formed to investigate them.
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I appreciate the Trump roleplaying!
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A 1x power I might. But I'd almost certainly lie and jus say it's an even night power or something.
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"That’s seriously townie to y’all?" Wyited is his own separate classification. There was a decent period of time where I referred to him as a policy lynch, and I may have NKed him for the same reason (I know I at least pushed for it, regardless of there being more optimal targets).
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It's midnight, so I have to go.
I have messaged our host about my vig giving power. I doubt we'll learn anything, but it'd be suck if we chose wrong and could have asked.
And I must agree with the sentiment that there are too many posts. Wyited should make a defense and an attack, either as one post, or two. Likewise with Pie. Then they defend, and lastly offer a final reply... That should be better than hundreds of posts; instead a small number of meaningful detailed ones.
I will post more tomorrow. Likely move the dashboard over and update it.
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@ILikePie5
Can you please answer my question in Post #70. Everything else is heresay or WIFOM. Also, Wylted wouldn’t keep you alive? You think I would?It’s either leaving you alive or outting as scum.I just can’t anymore. You’re literally letting your ego get to this at this point. Fuckin asshole. Rather lose to Wylted than Pie. Boo hoo. Fuck off.
lmao i just finished reading this post. I think I only read the first line when I initially saw this post.
The rage is pretty funny. But is it genuine? I am remembering invincible now lol
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@ILikePie5
Meh its probably real regardless of affiliation. I don't know what to tell you dude. I am sorry if I am pissing you off, but I actually feel like I am being more objective than normal here. If I was being a dick I would just vote you and keep my vote there the whole phase.
I know why you are getting pissed off. It's because you are a very logic based person, and when you find a point about something you tend to stick to it. A lot of my suspicion on you is based on WIFOM and POE, which isn't really something you can just answer and respond to, and that frustrates you. You want to be able to convince the person on your lynch against it, and I totally understand that.
I will say you have changed my opinion on a couple of issues, but ultimately like there isn't much you can really say on the "would I keep luna alive stuff" as ultimately that stuff's all based on wifom. You answered what you could and did a decent job it. Regardless of your affiliation, your doing your best to survive and I can appreciate that. I'm not gonna blindly tunnel you off that logic. Anyways lets all just chill out and figure this stuff out. No need to get pissy just yet.
Here’s a stretch for you. In this post Austin accidentally put Casey’s vote on moozer when it was wylted that voted him. Maybe Austin got the scum mate mixed up?
I am also noticing pie had Casey in his scum pool early on in dp1. Either he was setting up a bus really early, but there was kind of no point at this time
I also don't want us to make the mistake of relying too much on 'confirmable' roles.
Casey did say this as well which would work against pie who did have a confirmable role. Wylted at this point only said he did but had yet to prove it. Another hint that pie/casey may not be affiliated
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@Lunatic
@Barney
And I must agree with the sentiment that there are too many posts. Wyited should make a defense and an attack, either as one post, or two. Likewise with Pie. Then they defend, and lastly offer a final reply... That should be better than hundreds of posts; instead a small number of meaningful detailed ones.
I just tag you whenever I respond to Luna or Wylted when I think it’s super important. As for the Supa thing, I don’t even know how to respond to that. We’re two different people. Just because he does it as scum doesn’t mean that I would. Tbh I would rage regardless of my affiliation but like right now, it’s fuckin frustrating that Wylted is just coasting by. Here are arguments for why he’s scum and then my defense on things that have been brought up.
1) He didn’t offer any argument as to why I’m scum. He just let Luna (and you) do all the thinking and was like “yup”, “ya”, “Pie is scum cause POE”. He’s only playing defense, not offense. As scum, you leech off the thinking of a townie, basically buddying Luna and you. He did the same thing with me in DP1 when I was after Savant. First he’s all aboard on Savant being town, then the second I say no, he’s like “ya, Savant is scummy,” so much so that he votes him. I admit my tunnel on Savant was wrong, but I stand by the fact that Savant acted in a scummy way with his vote thief on Earth for zero reason except to confirm himself. Let’s move on to DP2. Wylted was the architect of the JoeBob lynch with the scumslip caused by Moozer. I admit that I saw that logic, but I also suspected that JoeBob was a False Inventor because of his character, who is literally an inventor and the fact that there were two, day giving protective roles. That’s a borderline CC right there in my eyes. After JoeBob flipped innocent, I was even planning on pushing you DP3, but then NP2, I saw Casey visiting Lunatic and no NK occurring. It was obvious Casey was scum. I basically was the reason Casey got lynched. Also, note that Wylted would have known that his Vig shot wouldn’t affect Casey. It’s easy to fake the “why did my Vig not work,” cause you know it’s not going to work. Now put yourself in Wylted’s shoes. If he’s town, if the Vig didn’t work, wouldn’t you ask the mod if you still have it or not? Cause to you it seemingly disappeared. I asked Austin (you can as well). He would answer with a Y/N if you ask: do I still have a Vig shot? But no, Wylted admitted that he just yolo shot Earth and it magically went through. So here’s my theory. He never used the shot on Casey cause he knew it was going to fail. Then he used it on Earth, which leads me to my second point.
2) Wylted claims that the neighborhood Vig was going to be used on me, but Earth backed out at the last second. Let’s think of the reasons why Earth would get cold feet, cause with the lynch of Casey before the NK, it was 5-1. Let’s assume Earth assumed the NK would succeed, making it 4-1. That means even with the neighborhood Vig, it would be 3-1 MYLO. There’s also a margin of error of 1 kill as well. So when Earth backs out last second he could be thinking a couple of things cause Wylted admitted that the plan was to shoot me, and everyone (including Wylted) was in agreement. Reasons Earth would get cold feet:
- Earth thought Pie was town. This one is common sense for why Earth would back out last second. If Wylted as scum thought this, then leaving Earth alive would ensure that Barney, Pie, Earth lynch scum Wylted. Using the shirt Vig shot on Barney or Lunatic would out Wylted as scum because Pie, Barney/Wylted, and Earth would instantly vote Wylted for killing a townie.
- Earth thought Wylted was scum. In this scenario, Earth would be thinking that scum agreeing to Vig Pie meant that Pie was town. And then same scenario as above applies
- Earth though Pie was town AND Wylted was scum. This one makes the most sense to me. It explains why he backed out. It explains why Wylted was forced to kill with the Vig shot and feign it as POE, when it was antitown to do so, scumslipping in the process.
- Earth wanted to give town the opportunity to have 2 lynches of their own volition because without the neighborhood Vig, it would be 4-1. In this scenario it makes absolutely no sense for Wylted to use his personal Vig on Earth. Giving town 2 lynches is great, and Wylted actively prevented that from happening.
Long story short, Wylted wanted to prevent town from having 2 mislynches to basically PoE eliminate. He couldn’t eliminate Luna/Barney cause that would out himself as scum. He could kill Pie or Earth. Earth backed out cause of A, B, C, or D. None of those explanations imply that Earth is scum, yet Wylted shot him anyways. If Earth is scum, why would he not agree to kill town Pie. If Earth is scum, why would he want to give town the opportunity to give town 2 lynch opportunities? Earth’s action in backing out has zero scum motive, and Wylted shot him anyways.
3) Wylted’s role. He is a 1x Lynchproof and then basically a 1x Sensor (allows him to investigate people that are on his wagon at the end of the DP). Now, Casey was basically a Bulletproof Ascetic, so he couldn’t be killed at night. A complement to that would be an ability to not be able to be lynched during the day, but only one day, with the ability going away at MYLO/LYLO. How did Wylted use this ability? To gain towncred and take the Vig shot for himself. Now let’s move on to the second part of the role, the Sensor. He did not use it DP2 or DP3. There is no town incentive not to do so. He could’ve simply asked a couple of people to place votes on him. What’s even more scummy is that he claimed this ability as a CC to Lunatic’s investigative role AFTER Casey had been lynched and a wagon couldn’t form on him. He was sussing Lunatic, trying to convince me that Luna was scum, and I didn’t give in. Then he magically get an “ah hah” moment and says Luna is town. Keep in mind that the CC was designed itself to make Pie believe that Lunatic is scum and support lynching him the next day (ironic cause he was trying to set up the lynch, which he blames me for doing). I defended Luna while Wylted tried and tried to convince me to lynch him the following day.
Time for my defense, which there are three of these to my knowledge stemming from Post 40 and 86’ by Lunatic:
Hypocrisy. I disagree with this claim. There’s a difference between lying about being a perma lynchproof (which is always town) vs a 1x Lynchproof (which isn’t necessarily always town) to gain towncred and take a 1x Vig shot. That’s the first part of his role. The second part, the sensor, he disclosed only after the lynch on Casey had been secured for the sole reason of sussing Lunatic. I had a reason not to disclose—a report I would receive NP3. I didn’t actively lie about my role at the end to gain towncred with you both. In fact, if I had kept my mouth shut, you would’ve probably lynched Wylted. I understand this is WIFOM, but I objectively think it’s unfair to equate my actions to Wylted’s actions, when his have been to take a Vig shot and give scum 2 NKs and try to convince me that Luna was scum cause he had an investigative ability.
Passive Ability. I’ve explained this as much as I could. I did somewhat find it suspicious, but I couldn’t do/say anything with it since I made Luna Lynchproof cause I thought you were the Cop. Saying anything, especially with all the noobs who go where the wind blows would’ve gotten me lynched for hypocrisy. Savant had already said lynch Pie. As for why the role would exist, we know one of Austin’s buddy said the game was town-sided. Also with the multitude of protective roles we had in the game (Barney, JoeBob, Savant, Moozer with his rolestopper), it makes sense for there to be extremely weak investigative roles like mine and Luna’s. I also have a Magistrate ability, which means I can’t self target. And you know I’m not lying because if I could self target, then I’m a lynchproof, and I would’ve CCed Wylted instantly. What’s more likely to be with Casey’s Bulletproof Ascetic? Self unlynchable or making someone else unlynchable (cause I could not target Casey).
Why Wylted would not shoot Lunatic. As explained earlier, shooting Lunatic would out Wylted as scum. Shooting Moozer makes sense because he’s mid confirmed town and has 3 abilities that can harm scum. Moozer probably was just an idiot and didn’t use the vest Barney gave because he wanted to use his ability, otherwise it would be 5-1. Or scum have a Strongman or something, but that’s unlikely because the kill on Luna was done by Casey who didn’t have a Strongman. Killing either Barney or Lunatic in combo with Moozer would out Wylted as scum. If Earth was scum, he had zero scum reason to back out on killing Pie, and Wylted shot him anyways. That’s a scum move. Period.
That’s my single post. Wylted is clearly scum from an objective standpoint. The three accusations on me that I defended largely stem from WIFOM—what I would do or not do. The objective truth is that Wylted did not even bother to use his sensor ability (no town reason not to do that), and he killed Earth with his Vig shot after Earth backed out on killing me, which if Earth was scum, he had no incentive in doing. Please vote Wylted.
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@Barney
many posts. Wyited should make a defense and an attack, either as one post, or two. Likewise with Pie. Then they defend, and lastly offer a final reply... That should be better than hundreds of posts; instead a small number of meaningful detailed ones.
I honestly don't feel like it. Pie's behavior seems scummy in retrospect but I have you and lunatic as scum, so the Gane is a nit easier for me to solve than you. I am happy to respond to any criticism of my behavior and reread your post though to find it and respond, which I Wil do now. Perhaps layer I will have the time and interest to do it, but if I do I am probably not going to be able to put in a tone of effort.
I'm a little confused as to the earth vig power. I thought the three had to agree?
We all 3 did have to agree and earth did agree but took it back for pie. It probably wouldn't have happened anyway because moozer ignored the chat. He likely also ignored his pm and that is why he didn't put on the shirt.
Yeah, odd that he didn't get any trains formed to investigate them.
I have literally never as town or scum struggled to get votes on me. Usually there is 2 or 3 a dp. Personally I would rather a lynch go through than to investigate somebody so a lot of thay was me not wanting to sacrifice a vote I could influence .
I literally had no reason to bring up the role though other than explain to pie thay I can't read lunatic as town for having the only investigative like role because I have an investigative like roll. It wasn't any attempt to look like I was town but just to explain why I thought lunatic should be in the scum pool and I think it needs to be looked at why people claimed at all, as much as what they claimed.
I will try to do a single post and collect what I wrote but ultimately I would rather you bring the game to an end. You gave me a red vest because you trusted me. The trust was well founded.
I want you to also think about this. Regardless of which of us is in that scum chat with Casey, we would control the scum chat. A pie Casey scum chat is dominated by pie. A wylted Casey scum chat is dominated by wylted.
You accurately predicted every NK. Do you really think I am predictable and ascribe to the philosophy of always targeting the town in such a predictable manner? Or is pie more in line with the common scum philosophy of always going for the most town read player every time?
I also want to know if you think Casey is so dumb as scum that her final post is one where she claims pie is town essentially? What type of scum accidentally reveals that somebody in everybody's POE list is town?
I don't know how old Casey is but it's a childish strategy. It isn't something they are dumb enough to do as scum, but it is something they are childish enough to do.
It is a convenient time to say this but Daniele taught me that scum always go hard at MYLO/LYLO for whatever reason. It's why you noticed all the posts from Supa.
She told me in a mylo situation where somebody came on and wrote a long post that they are scum and we can lynch. I asked
Are you not going to put anymore thought into it?
She says no, scum always write these long posts like that. If I remember correct it was lunatic who wrote the long post. Not sure, but why lynched correctly
He is lying about the savant situation. The whole time I said the vote theft was either scummy or antitown and it should result in a lynch. I also said he gives me town vibes. I never randomly brought up any scum read of him that I can recall
try to convince me that Luna was scum cause he had an investigative ability.
No, I was wondering about why you had a townread on him after 3 posts in dp1 and wouldn't explore him as a scum option. I was wondering if there was some town tell I missed but also wondering if you were scum and this is just some sort of buddying you were attempting with lunatic. All I know is he was in my scum pool, I never made an argument that he should be in anyone else's.
When you said your town read of him was from him being the only claimed investigative role, I then said I couldn't town read him for that reason because I have one.
Also claiming that there would not give me any town cred so it's clear the only motivation was to just explain why I couldn't town read him
Why Wylted would not shoot Lunatic. As explained earlier, shooting Lunatic would out Wylted as scum
This is stupid for the reason already explained. All I had to do is avoid the aha moment I had in the twilight phase and not ruin my own plan. It would not have been scummy for me to scum read a widely town read player, so no if I avoided the aha moment of realizing he was town, then the vig shot comes with a lot of plausible deniability
. If Earth was scum, he had zero scum reason to back out on killing Pie, and Wylted shot him anyways. That’s a scum move. Period.
I already debunked this chain of logic earlier
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@Barney
I know you are being cautious. However I also know you already know who is scum and given that Lunatic is waiting on you then please let's just get this game over with.
You lost 1 time every 24 hours this DP so the game is waiting on you. I don't fault you for having a real life but honestly I do also and I need to study today. And doing that while making high effort posts here is just not going to happen.
Also I am wondering if Pie uses retarded logic like "He is scum because he is not making a case for me being scum" as town ever at any point in time. Obviously any case would get dismissed as confirmation bias and it probably would be, but more importantly I have no reason to overthink this. I understand you have a more difficult position than me, because I 100% know that pie is scum and you can only be like 67% confident or something.
I still think you know exactly where you are voting and that by sticking around too long trying to make the perfect decision, somewhere along the way you will give into the psychological craving to cave to people who are begging. I know because I cave to it when my wife or child begs. The best way to fight the psychological urge to crave to begging is to make a decision and place your vote then ignore the thread until the end game pops up
I oddly have a touch of no info.
Once I'm on a break from work, I'll cross check it and vote.
Basically the shirt kill would be refunded if failed for targeting interference (let's call this magic).
The shirt would be lost if if the kill failed for more normal reasons (let's call this physical).
Reviewing abilities (you're fired is hard for me to believe), the increased likelihood that the shot failed to be fired, and more (can't write for too long at work).
VTL Orange Pie
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@Lunatic
@Barney
Reviewing abilities (you're fired is hard for me to believe), the increased likelihood that the shot failed to be fired, and more (can't write for too long at work).VTL Orange Pie
What? Why is it hard for you to believe. All of my abilities are quotes from Trump. The shot failed to fire? Casey’s literally an Ascetic. Ofc it failed to fire? And my justification mentions The Apprentice. Did you even read my post?
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@Barney
Basically the shirt kill would be refunded if failed for targeting interference (let's call this magic).
This is literally what Casey’s role is. Casey not being able to be targeted = targeting interference. Wylted would have known that he can’t target Casey
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@Lunatic
It pains me to say this, but you’re my last hope. At least read my post. Barney’s info isn’t a smoking gun like he thinks it is.