Macroevolution, an unexplainable process

Author: IlDiavolo

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@IlDiavolo
You said micromutations and macromutations were essencially the same. This is what I understood, which is not true. Macromutation entails major changes in the phenotype without several changes, only the enough to turn a species to a new one. But to be honest I didn't find more information about it since it's under research, or I would say it's unexplicable.


'Macromutation' is a newish word for an old idea that was called 'saltation'.  It's the idea that new structures or species appear already fully formed and was a mainstream, orthodox theory of biology upto the C19.  Darwins new idea was that change was gradual and 'macro' evolution resulted fom the accumulation of many 'micro' events over extended periods of time.

The debate over 'gradulism' and 'saltationism' was setted a very long time ago and no biologist today is a saltationist.  

note also thst Darwin knew nothing about genes or mutation.  Darwinism requires that offsprning resemble (but are not absolutely identical to) their parents and siblings.  Mutation and epigenetics both fit in with darwinism.
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@keithprosser
As an additional point: Macromutations were the basis of Goldschmitts “Hopeful monsters” hypothesis - it was something that was initially used to try and explain macroevolution - but want ever really accepted, and isn’t part of “the scientists” explanation of evolution.


Saying that, I think regulatory and hox gene mutations that occur early in the embryological development of a creature do have parts to play in macro evolution - it can explain some of the phyla level differences in body plans, but IlDiavolo is really failing to grasp the underlying principles - I would very much encourage you to check out the Evo-Devo Acapella science video on the first page, it’s hilarious but also informative!

3RU7AL
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@IlDiavolo
What are you trying to show us? Speak.
In your intro you said something about how gene modification alone doesn't cause one animal to mutate into another, so I thought you might find this interesting...

A chicken embryo with a dinosaur-like snout instead of a beak has been developed by scientists


ANd mammals have a common ancestor.
IlDiavolo
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@keithprosser
'Macromutation' is a newish word for an old idea that was called 'saltation'.  It's the idea that new structures or species appear already fully formed and was a mainstream, orthodox theory of biology upto the C19.  Darwins new idea was that change was gradual and 'macro' evolution resulted fom the accumulation of many 'micro' events over extended periods of time.

The debate over 'gradulism' and 'saltationism' was setted a very long time ago and no biologist today is a saltationist.   

note also thst Darwin knew nothing about genes or mutation.  Darwinism requires that offsprning resemble (but are not absolutely identical to) their parents and siblings.  Mutation and epigenetics both fit in with darwinism.

Thank you, Keith, for contributing to this debate. But I'm afraid Saltationism, or macromutation nowadays, is gaining more popularity among Darwinists and scientists in general as an alternative to gradualism.

Actually, it's been considered for Modern Synthetic Theory. The eternal question is still the same, is it possible that random mutations, natural selection, macromutations and punctuated equilibria explain macroevolution?


As to mutation and epigenetics, there is no problem with them. The main problem is natural selection as the main driver of evolution.

Il Diavolo
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@Ramshutu
ROFL. You are spewing the same rant over and over again without contributing anything to this debate. I've heard so many times that discourse that I can repeat it by heart.

You're making the same mistake. Gradualism is being replaced by macromutation which is other way to see changes in the genome and could explain better macroevolution. As Keith pointed out, it's been in the debate long time ago, but now it's getting conspicuous among scientists.

With macromutation all your posts collapse like a house of cards.

Il Diavolo
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@3RU7AL
In your intro you said something about how gene modification alone doesn't cause one animal to mutate into another, so I thought you might find this interesting...

A chicken embryo with a dinosaur-like snout instead of a beak has been developed by scientists


ANd mammals have a common ancestor.
According to this article, birds already have in their genes the code of their ancestors, namely that new genetic information is not added to their genome. They're not creating new functionality nor an organ or member, but it's just a change, or a replacement.

I was referring to new genetic information like, for example, the iris of an eye, or an organ with a new functionality. Netiher gradualism nor natural selection can explain that properly, completely and acurretely. You cannot get new information just turning on or off genes, for that you need to add new genetic information.

Il Diavolo
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@IlDiavolo
Gradulism isn’t being replaced by macromutations, macroevolution doesn’t require macromutaions to be explained: and even if it did - macromutafions exisy and are observable. I’m pointing out this, with examples and an argument - and you havent answered it at any point, you’ve just shifted the goalposts to a different question each time.


Macro evolution doesnt require anything special - just the types of mutation we can see and observe today, and can be explained simply through the effect those mutations have on where they occur. Turning an arm into a bird wing over time is mostly a matter of expression of existing genes over longer periods of time, as it doesn’t require anything new, just a change of what’s already there in ways we know can already happen. Most of what you’re saying really looks like it’s based on some overly simplistic and naive view of genetics.



IlDiavolo
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@Stronn
Naturalism typically means a belief that natural processes account for everything in nature, as opposed to supernatural. So of course I took your statement that the article says a naturalist perspective was insufficient to explain evolution to mean there must be some supernatural explanation. I now understand what you actually were trying to say.
I've never mentioned "supernatural" forces. Lol. But thank you anyway for making my point in the OP, that anyone daring to criticise the Synthetic Theory or darwinism is a superstitous guy.

The article does not say that natural selection is not enough to explain evolution. It only says that natural selection is not the only process by which traits can change from one generation to the next. Of course, being written for a popular audience, it uses hyperbole to spin epigenetics as calling into question all of Darwinism. The fact is that under modern evolutionary theory natural selection remains the primary mechanism of evolutionary change, sufficient to explain most evolutionary change, especially long-term changes resulting in speciation.
And what is the difference?

No, natural selection is incapable of explaininig diversity of species or the evolution.
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@Ramshutu
I would say darwinism is the real simplistic way to explain evolution.

At any rate, you're considering animal's traits as if they were already in all the living being's genome. So, are you saying, for example, that a cat has in its genome the code to grow wings?
3RU7AL
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@IlDiavolo
According to this article, birds already have in their genes the code of their ancestors, namely that new genetic information is not added to their genome. They're not creating new functionality nor an organ or member, but it's just a change, or a replacement.
Ok, so isn't that pretty good evidence that beaks (a "new" organ) evolved from snouts?

I was referring to new genetic information like, for example, the iris of an eye, or an organ with a new functionality. Netiher gradualism nor natural selection can explain that properly, completely and acurretely. You cannot get new information just turning on or off genes, for that you need to add new genetic information.
I'm not sure I understand the problem.  The earliest "eyes" were simple binary light sensitive (not a huge leap in function, since all cells are light sensitive to some degree or other) cells in prehistoric fish.  These "eyes" became more and more complex over time and are epitomized in the bluebottle butterfly.


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@IlDiavolo

..."The fragmented aspect of genes with introns is reminiscent of the way computer code may become physically fragmented after it has been retrieved from the hard drive and returned."...

..."Occasionally introns do assume a function within the cell — as templates not for RNA that codes for protein but for RNA that has another role. In addition, occasionally, the exons in such a gene are silent (16).

...This situation is backwards. No one has any idea how this arrangement could have evolved, if strands of nucleotides gradually evolve new functions by the darwinian method."....
---------------------------------------

Start with the whole and no parts can be left out.  What emergence?  Emergence is what is possible within a finite set of possiibilities.

See finite set of cosmic physical laws/principles.

See finite occupied space Universe.
------------------------------------------

See what exists in black hole hologrpahically expressed on its seemingly 2D event horizon surface.

The area of  the four bisecting hexagonal planes that define a spherical cubo-octahedron, are equal the surface of same spherical cubo-octahedron.

What happens when a black hole evaporates i.e where does all of the information inside and on surface go?
O > Complex-to-simple > * is less frustrating than * > simple-to-complex > O

5{ whole O } inherently contains #1, 2, 3 and 4 parts.

Ramshutu
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@IlDiavolo
And again - you’re understanding of the genome is grotesquely naive.

There are no “wing” genes in ANY  genome. There are hox genes - and regulation sequences that can regulate or unregulate gene expression that encourages or inhibits cell specialization, growth and division at particular times in the development of the organism. All of those are broadly common to all animals, and very close in all terrestrial vertebrates. 

In that respect the genes from an arm and a wing are inherently the same genes and the same things, just with modified regulation and expression of those same genes.





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@IlDiavolo
I heard about that. Evolution migh have happened by transfering genetic information from another living matter. It's a good hypothesis, but I really doubt the orthodox scientists will give in to that.
Cosmic ancestry via Fred Hoyle, also considers virus DNA or RNA.  Virus'es are twilight organisms between "living matter" and mineral.

Biological cell { liquid bilayer lipid membrane }  (( o~ )) has both RNA and DNA

Virus { protein capsid shell, sometimes icosahedral }  //~\\ or \\o// has either RNA or DNA never both

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@IlDiavolo
But I'm afraid Saltationism, or macromutation nowadays, is gaining more popularity among Darwinists and scientists in general as an alternative to gradualism....
As to mutation and epigenetics, there is no problem with them. The main problem is natural selection as the main driver of evolution.

Natural selection is safe!   It is only a question of whether you are frequently selecting between slightly different micro-mutants or occasionally selecting between very different macro-mutants. Its ntural selecton either way.

The problem is that it is not trivial to work out what changes to DNA are required to produce a desired effect.   How could a giraffe stretching up to a high leaf identify the specfic change from ACGT to ACGT on at locus 138 on chromosome 9 and then genetucally engineer that change? 

The prefered mode is that a random mutation that produce a barely noticeable increase in neck length is more likey to survive than a monstrous freak is.  A giraffe with a neck 10 times longer than its parents would also need a different circulation system and heart at least.  Accumulting small changes does not demand a level of co-ordination that otherwise seems to require intelligence or foresight to achieve. 

3RU7AL
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@Ramshutu
There are no “wing” genes in ANY  genome. There are hox genes - and regulation sequences that can regulate or unregulate gene expression that encourages or inhibits cell specialization, growth and division at particular times in the development of the organism. All of those are broadly common to all animals, and very close in all terrestrial vertebrates. 

In that respect the genes from an arm and a wing are inherently the same genes and the same things, just with modified regulation and expression of those same genes.
Bingo.
IlDiavolo
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@Ramshutu
And again - you’re understanding of the genome is grotesquely naive.

There are no “wing” genes in ANY  genome. There are hox genes - and regulation sequences that can regulate or unregulate gene expression that encourages or inhibits cell specialization, growth and division at particular times in the development of the organism. All of those are broadly common to all animals, and very close in all terrestrial vertebrates. 

In that respect the genes from an arm and a wing are inherently the same genes and the same things, just with modified regulation and expression of those same genes.

I've never said "wing" genes, I said "wing" code, which can encompass several genes.

But still, you're wrong. Let's focus how a wing evolved, because it has evolved anyway. The question is whether it evolved or not like you said.

Let's assume first that birds evolved from dinosours. I say "assume" because there are some doubts about it according to some findings of apparently a "bird" that existed before dinosours. (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328574-400-reptile-grew-feather-like-structures-before-dinosaurs/). In any case, there's a consensus among scientists that feathers evolved from reptile's scales. There have been some experiments in alligators genome in order to induce them to grow feathers instead of scales by turning some genes on and off as you described (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42082489). What they got were not presicely feathers but a sort of appendages. And according to scientists: "The reason the gene doesn't cause the development of a fully feathered alligator is that unlike birds, alligators don't have the underlying genetic architecture evolved to support these central feather-making genes, or hold the structures in place on the skin."  This shows that in order to get a new species, macroevolution in other words, new genetic information should be put in the DNA code, in this case the feather-making genes.

So macroevolution is not about just new gene expressions but new genetic information. An arm and a wing are differents.
IlDiavolo
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@keithprosser
Are you saying the problem lies on random mutations?

If it's that, I completely agree. It's possible that the proble is either random mutations or natural selection, or even both.

Il Diavolo

Stronn
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@IlDiavolo
I've never mentioned "supernatural" forces. Lol. But thank you anyway for making my point in the OP, that anyone daring to criticise the Synthetic Theory or darwinism is a superstitous guy.
You said that a naturalistic perspective is insufficient to explain evolution. Naturalistic means non-supernatural, so of course I took that to mean that supernatural forces are required to explain evolution. You should have used the correct term if you meant that natural selection is insufficient to explain evolution.

And what is the difference?

No, natural selection is incapable of explaininig diversity of species or the evolution.
Just because we have discovered that natural selection is not the only way traits change does not mean that natural selection is not the primary way traits change. Natural selection is still quite sufficient to account for the vast majority of changes over time, including speciation. Even without epigenetic change, speciation would still occur due to natural selection.

You are portraying epigenetics as some alternate evolutionary theory, when really it is just a refinement of current  theory. Epigenetics does not preclude natural selection. Just as Einstein's theory does not mean Newton's theory was wrong, epigenetics does not mean Darwinism is wrong.

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@Stronn
You are portraying epigenetics as some alternate evolutionary theory, when really it is just a refinement of current  theory. Epigenetics does not preclude natural selection. Just as Einstein's theory does not mean Newton's theory was wrong, epigenetics does not mean Darwinism is wrong.
Well stated.
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@IlDiavolo
1.) Saying that feathers evolved earlier than birds doesn’t mean that birds didn’t evolve from dinosaurs, or that there is even any doubt that requires anything to be assumed. Feathers were around earlier than birds, that at this time is relatively uncontraversial and actually substantially bolsters the idea that one evolved from the other due to the commonality of traits. That you think this renders the idea an assumption highlights your lack of understanding of the very process and theory you’re opposing.

2.) Yes - feathers evolved from scales. They are both keratin based growths that start their development in the embryo in very similar ways, based on roughly the same underlying proteins - also the same as nails and hair. They’re all the same building blocks differing in expression. Alligators cannot grow feathers today because it does not have most of that extra expression that changes how these genes are modulated 

3.) “Genetic information” is a meaningless term used by creationists to define their way out of being wrong. There are genes, and there is genetic material - we observe this material being mutated, duplicated, and those those duplicates being modified, leading to two different genes when there was one. That’s all evolution really needs, and renders the concept “generic information” either meaninglsss or irrelevant.

4.) Again, there are no wing “genes”, or set of genes or set of “code” that “make a wing” in the way you’re arguing. That you think there is, is a grossly naive interpretation of genetics. An arm and a wing have more or less similar hox genes - the genes that govern overall body plans. When an embryo develops and divides, these have a cascade of gene regulation that govern division, specialization and organization that generates a body plan - it’s like a set of directions - divide, divide, stop, divide, specialize, etc. To make a wing, instead of an arm, particular genes need to be turned off at a given time, or turned on at a given time - exactly the same type of regulation that exists to make an arm - just in different orders.

Every multi celled organism is crammed full of genetic code that turns a particular gene off or on at some specific moment in the developmental cascade, the idea that making a wing requires some special information - is nonsense - it just requires exactly the same stuff that already exists, just applied in a different way at a different time.

Your argument is like saying that to go from your home city to Washington D.C using left, right, forward and backward: but you need to invent a whole new direction to get to New York. Now - New York is still the same lefts and rights - just in a different order.

 

IlDiavolo
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@Stronn
You said that a naturalistic perspective is insufficient to explain evolution. Naturalistic means non-supernatural, so of course I took that to mean that supernatural forces are required to explain evolution. You should have used the correct term if you meant that natural selection is insufficient to explain evolution.
This is the term the article used. 

Just because we have discovered that natural selection is not the only way traits change does not mean that natural selection is not the primary way traits change. Natural selection is still quite sufficient to account for the vast majority of changes over time, including speciation. Even without epigenetic change, speciation would still occur due to natural selection.

You are portraying epigenetics as some alternate evolutionary theory, when really it is just a refinement of current  theory. Epigenetics does not preclude natural selection. Just as Einstein's theory does not mean Newton's theory was wrong, epigenetics does not mean Darwinism is wrong.
This is what I take issue with. Natural selection is useless.

As to epigenetics, it's fair enough.

Il Diavolo
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@Ramshutu
Your argument is like saying that to go from your home city to Washington D.C using left, right, forward and backward: but you need to invent a whole new direction to get to New York. Now - New York is still the same lefts and rights - just in a different order.
No, it's not just lefts and rights. Evolution is not a mindless process. It's like saying a computer program is just 1's and 0's, it doesn't make sense because the group of 1's and 0's has a meaning depending how they're arranged.

As in the genetic code for feathers, you need information as to how feathers should be constructed. Without it, it's a blindless process. Now, I'm not saying this is impossible, the issue is that darwinists think it's natural selection that makes that possible. Common sense and a bit of knowledge about science and maths tell this is quite difficult.

Il Diavolo
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@IlDiavolo
Unfortunately, it is neither logical or rational to ignore the last 60 years of scientific research into genetics and embryological development and replace it with your opinion because you neither like, nor accept what the science says.

Embryological development - from a single cell to a grown organism is EXACLTY just lefts and rights. The last 60 years of verifiable science shows that when the organism starts multiplying, a cascade of protein and gene regulation kicks in. Genes and protein production are turned on and off, genes are expressed in greater or lesser amounts as cells multiply, allowing cells to specialize, multiple at different rates or modulates the production of protein to alter the position and shape that the organism grows in.

In terrestrial vertebrates - with a body plan that is generally mostly unchanged since fish - the difference between a wing, a fin and an arm is solely down to the same genes generating the same proteins being turned of and on at different times - in exactly the same way getting to New York is the same as a journey to Washington, just with different combinations of left and right.

You may not like that, and in your naive, and superficial understanding of science that leads you to conclude the are genes for constructing feathers (that’s not how it works), a collection of code for wings that are fundamentally different from arms (again no), or that macro mutations are not simply the same mutations occurring at the start of a cascade of regulation and thus produce a bigger impact than those at the end - but that is the way organisms develop.

Understanding that makes macro evolution easy to understand, as almost every change in terrestrial vertebrates boils down to a change in size and shape which is simply a change in gene regulation - producing more protein in one type of cell at a given time to produce more growth at a given time. 

Understanding how life actually works makes understanding evolution as a blind process trivial: no major new structures need to be created, a wing isn’t a brand new collection of traits - a wing can simply be made by a sequential and trivial collection of regulatory changes that simply modify the order and pattern an arm grows. That’s all it is.

You may not like it, and you certainly seem to actually understand it; but that doesn’t require anything magical, it doesn’t require some arbitrarily and subjective interpretation of “information”, but that’s the conclusion to which literally all the evidence points.

You appear to have a fixation with treating individuals traits and differences as unique features and special genes that don’t exist in any way before or after - that is demonstrably not the way this works at alll: the sooner you start appreciating that nuance, the better for all of us.

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@Ramshutu
ILD's is saying that if evolution proceeds by large phenotypical changes then those changes can't be due to random genetic changes.   As there are (alleged) examples of large phenotypical changes, genetic change must be directed, not random.
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@IlDiavolo
This is the term the article used. 
No it's not. The article never uses the word "naturalistic" or anything derivative of it.

This is what I take issue with. Natural selection is useless.
You can take issue with it all you want. The science contradicts you.
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@keithprosser
A large phenotypic change is not necessarily due to a large genotypic change. For instance, a single mutation on the GLI3 gene results in an extra finger on your hands. It is important to make this distinction, because evolution occurs by (and in fact is defined as) changes in the genotype. 
 



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@Stronn
Growing an extra finger is not quite,say, switching from egg-laying to live-birth.

I am an evolutionist - I believe in gradual change. 

But i admit I have no idea how to go from egg-lying to live-birth gradually.  
Obviously it did happen - just don't ask me about the details!

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@Ramshutu
I've showed you that it's not turning on or off in genome that lead to macroevolution, this is microevolution though. Thought the example of feathers would have been enough. I would like to bring more examples, but I think I made my point.

I just want to add that it's true I don't like darwinism, but only because it is a foolish theory that implies randomness (random mutations) and mindless process (natural selection) are the main engine for the evolution of such extraordinary complex living beings.
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@IlDiavolo
Unfortunately, what you did was assert that it’s not small changes - and you did so by using a highly naive interpretation of genetics that simply isn’t true at all - and you seem to be ignoring.

As I’ve pointed out, some major macroevolurionary changes that really just boil down to size and shape - I gave examples and specifics. I’ve explained how organisms develop from the rudimentary hox genes, and have pointed out that most terrestrial vertebrates have almost the same
body plan, and hox genes - and the differences between all the different body plans are in the way embryos develop due to the way these genes are expressed and regulated in the cascading mechanism of development.

As I’ve said, and you don’t seem to grasp - a wing is simply a different expression of the same Genes that grow an arm. Feathers are a different expression of the genes that form scales (and hair) - birds have most certainly acquired differences in how these arms grow, or how the feathers grow - but due to your misunderstanding of how genetics works - to get feathers you won’t have to acquire a brand new feature and some brand new proteins and genes - you have to acquire changes in how existing genes are expressed and regulated - you have to acquire a change that turns on or off a gene at a particular time - which it’s often as simple as point mutations, gene duplication or the effect of transposons - micro changes.

Macro evolution requires a lot of those micro changes, but the only reason you seem to be claiming that there needs to be some new feature or new thing generated in order to produce differences that we mostly know can be ascribed to the hox gene regulatory cascade. This misinterpretation is literally like claiming Wayne Gretzky wasn’t that great because he never won the super bowl.


Your argument fundamentally misunderstands both genetics and how organisms develop, and at this point it seems you’re mostly going out of your way to ignore responding to where your misunderstandings are being corrected by us.

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@keithprosser
Right, some large changes in phenotype, like going from egg-laying to live birth, do require large changes in the genotype. Such large changes in genotype do not occur in a single generation, however. as you say.

My point was that it can be misleading to measure the amount of evolutionary change by phenotype rather than genotype, as ILD does, because a single mutation often has a profound effect on phenotype. This is, in fact, the definition of macromutation: a mutation that has a profound effect on the resulting organism. It in no way implies that the mutation results in a large change in genotype, or a giant evolutionary leap. Macromutations often are, in fact, alterations of a single nucleotide.