Become a theist

Author: Fallaneze

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@Analgesic.Spectre
That is not the fine-tuning argument. Again, you are completely ignorant as to what fine-tuning refers to. I'm going to show your posts to my friends so that we can laugh at you.

Fine-tuning attempts to prove the existence of an intelligent creator, in any case, and not necessarily a God of a particular religion.
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@Discipulus_Didicit

That is my point. There is no evidence for these deities or others such as Shangdi or the Demiurge. The fact that the universe and life exists and there are stories giving these deities credit for that is not evidence.
True.

The Bible, through prophecy (as one evidence), gives credence for its truth claims that can be verified to a reasonable degree through historical data, among other things. But the greater questions are 1) How does a chance universe exist, 2) How does it sustain itself seemingly indefinitely?

Without Mindful creation, there is no sense to be had from it yet we keep deriving sense from it. That is one of many inconsistencies. Why should we be able to make sense of something that is senseless? No reason. Why do we keep finding reasons? Again, no reason in the grand 'scheme' of a solely materialistic universe. And meaning - why do we derive meaning from the meaningless and what difference does it make in the big picture? It means nothing in the big picture, yet to some degree are you acting like it does by thinking meaningfully? 

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@IlDiavolo
Fine-tuning attempts to prove the existence of an intelligent creator, in any case, and not necessarily a God of a particular religion.
Well stated.
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@3RU7AL
How does that make sense of a chance universe sustaining itself? How can something that is not 'about' anything do this or anything?
You seem to be under the impression that the teleological fallacy somehow justifies the fine-tuned-universe fallacy.
I'm simply asking how it is justifiable that a chance universe is sustainable within itself? Show me how it makes sense without agency or intent behind it in sustaining it??? Can you do that? I'm asking you to make sense of your worldview claim if you deny God. 


A "fine-tuned universe" is inconclusive scientifically because of sample bias.

However, even if you wanted to accept that a "fine-tuned universe" was "evidence" in favor of some sort of creator gods, THAT LEAVES YOU WITH LOGICAL DEISM.  It is an astronomical leap to any specific particular flavor of "theism".
Except that I do not support just any gods but a specific God, the one and only. I will be right there with you arguing against just any god. I believe the universe, and the earth, is fine-tuned for life because it was designed and sustains itself via a living Being. 


(IFF) fine-tuned-universe (THEN) Marduk.

(IFF) fine-tuned-universe (THEN) Brahman.

(IFF) fine-tuned-universe (THEN) Nanabozho.

(IFF) fine-tuned-universe (THEN) Pangu.

All of these are equally valid statements.

No, they are not, unless you can justify them with reasonable evidence that these gods exist. 

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@PGA2.0
They have just the same evidence of YOUR God existing.
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@3RU7AL
A "fine-tuned universe" is inconclusive scientifically because of sample bias.

Nevertheless, to date, this is the only planet we know of that sustains life to my knowledge. Through the vastness of the universe, this planet seems unique. I have a reasonable explanation for that, do you? If so, then please state it. I'm willing to learn.

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@PGA2.0
And meaning - why do we derive meaning from the meaningless and what difference does it make in the big picture? It means nothing in the big picture, yet to some degree are you acting like it does by thinking meaningfully? 
Quanta is quantifiable and empirically and scientifically verifiable and real and extant (and emotionally meaningless).

Qualia is qualitative and experiential and private and personal and imaginary and immaterial (and emotionally meaningful).

A dog has a qualitative experience and values things and activities that you do not.

A fish has a qualitative experience and values things and activities that you do not.

An ant has a qualitative experience and values things and activities that you do not.

Simply because you value things does not in any way imply that those particular things have any intrinsic meaning or value to a dog or a fish or an ant or even necessarily to another human being. 

You have a sense of value and meaningfulness for the exact same reasons the dog and the fish and the ant have a sense of value and meaningfulness.

Your emotional queues and motives and desires are integral aspects of your survival instinct.

You can identify and maintain your emotional mechanisms with science - http://www.robertlustig.com/4cs/
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@janesix
They have just the same evidence of YOUR God existing.
What is that?
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@PGA2.0
The evidence that points to a creator in general.
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@PGA2.0
Nevertheless, to date, this is the only planet we know of that sustains life to my knowledge. Through the vastness of the universe, this planet seems unique. I have a reasonable explanation for that, do you? If so, then please state it. I'm willing to learn.
All dogs love eating bananas.

Of course, I've only ever seen one dog in my entire life and only fed it one slice of banana, but it seemed really really happy to me.

I have therefore concluded, based solely on this one brief experience, that all dogs love eating bananas.

This is an example of sample-bias.

If your sample is too small, your conclusions cannot be considered reliable.
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@3RU7AL
And meaning - why do we derive meaning from the meaningless and what difference does it make in the big picture? It means nothing in the big picture, yet to some degree are you acting like it does by thinking meaningfully? 
Quanta is quantifiable and empirically and scientifically verifiable and real and extant (and emotionally meaningless).
What does it have to do with meaning?


Qualia is qualitative and experiential and private and personal and imaginary and immaterial (and emotionally meaningful).

A dog has a qualitative experience and values things and activities that you do not.

A fish has a qualitative experience and values things and activities that you do not.

An ant has a qualitative experience and values things and activities that you do not.

Simply because you value things does not in any way imply that those particular things have any intrinsic meaning or value to a dog or a fish or an ant or even necessarily to another human being. 
I'm not arguing for a dog or fish since they do not have the same reasoning power that we do. They can't meditate on meaning as we do. They can't reason with each other as we can, with abstract thoughts that we put into practice in subduing our world.

If there is no intrinsic value to being human then is it justifiable to eliminate all humans (you first)?   


You have a sense of value and meaningfulness for the exact same reasons the dog and the fish and the ant have a sense of value and meaningfulness.
First, establish that a fish thinks of itself as valuable. Show me how it contemplates its meaning. 


Your emotional queues and motives and desires are integral aspects of your survival instinct.
Or my emotional queries and motives are from a meaningful mindful Being that has created us in His image and likeness. Like produces like. Thus, we are meaningful beings who can investigate our meaning. Show me how a rock dissolving and creating minerals that produce intelligent being over vast amounts of time, that leads to meaningful thought. It is YOUR presupposition that it does, not mine.


You can identify and maintain your emotional mechanisms with science - http://www.robertlustig.com/4cs/

What does this link signify? It has nothing to do with the discussion. 
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@janesix
The evidence that points to a creator in general.
So are you saying the evidence from either is equally valid, or both presuppositional, or what?

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@PGA2.0
I am saying there is evidence of a creator. Just not a specific one from any particular religion.
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@3RU7AL
A "fine-tuned universe" is inconclusive scientifically because of sample bias

Nevertheless, to date, this is the only planet we know of that sustains life to my knowledge. Through the vastness of the universe, this planet seems unique. I have a reasonable explanation for that, do you? If so, then please state it. I'm willing to learn.
All dogs love eating bananas.

Of course, I've only ever seen one dog in my entire life and only fed it one slice of banana, but it seemed really really happy to me.

I have therefore concluded, based solely on this one brief experience, that all dogs love eating bananas.

This is an example of sample-bias.

If your sample is too small, your conclusions cannot be considered reliable.

Sample bias? The point is that to date there is no EVIDENCE of life on other planets. To date, this planet seems as if it is the only one in a vast universe capable of sustaining life. To date, that is all you have to work with. Everything else is speculation. To date, which argument makes sense?





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@janesix
I am saying there is evidence of a creator. Just not a specific one from any particular religion.
Yes, I agree with the evidence of a Creator, but I do not agree with the rest of your conclusion. If you wish to challenge it further may I ask what you believe? Are you a pantheist, a Buddhist, a deist, a monotheist, or some other kind of theist?

3RU7AL
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@PGA2.0
Quanta is quantifiable and empirically and scientifically verifiable and real and extant (and emotionally meaningless).
What does it have to do with meaning?
I am drawing a line between what is meaningful and what is meaningless.

I'm not arguing for a dog or fish since they do not have the same reasoning power that we do. They can't meditate on meaning as we do. They can't reason with each other as we can, with abstract thoughts that we put into practice in subduing our world. 
A dog a fish and an ant have motives.  For example they seek out particular foods and consume them.  Their particular type of food is valuable to them.  Finding and consuming food and reproduction are valuable activities to them.  Social creatures also value interactions with fellow members of their pack, school, and colony.

If there is no intrinsic value to being human then is it justifiable to eliminate all humans (you first)?   
I value myself and you value yourself in the same way a dog a fish and an ant values itself.

I value my community because humans cannot exist in isolation.  If you have an impulse to "kill all humans" you are basically suicidal.

You have a sense of value and meaningfulness for the exact same reasons the dog and the fish and the ant have a sense of value and meaningfulness.
First, establish that a fish thinks of itself as valuable. Show me how it contemplates its meaning. 
A dog a fish and an ant have motives.  For example they seek out particular foods and consume them.  Their particular type of food is valuable to them.  Finding and consuming food and reproduction are valuable activities to them.  Social creatures also value interactions with fellow members of their pack, school, and colony.

Your emotional queues and motives and desires are integral aspects of your survival instinct.
Or my emotional queries and motives are from a meaningful mindful Being that has created us in His image and likeness. Like produces like. Thus, we are meaningful beings who can investigate our meaning. Show me how a rock dissolving and creating minerals that produce intelligent being over vast amounts of time, that leads to meaningful thought. It is YOUR presupposition that it does, not mine.
I'm not sure how a hypothetical Deistic Being adds any meaningfulness to human existence.  Please explain.

You can identify and maintain your emotional mechanisms with science - http://www.robertlustig.com/4cs/
What does this link signify? It has nothing to do with the discussion. 
The link explains how you can increase your general sense of well being, scientifically.  Sky daddy completely optional.
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@PGA2.0
Sample bias? The point is that to date there is no EVIDENCE of life on other planets. To date, this planet seems as if it is the only one in a vast universe capable of sustaining life. To date, that is all you have to work with. Everything else is speculation. To date, which argument makes sense?

Also, the fact that Mars is red strongly suggests that it had an oxygen rich environment at some point, and the overwhelming majority of planet earth's initial supply of oxygen was produced by cyanobacteria.

Second off,

We have estimated the age of the cosmos to be approximately 13.799 billion years OLD and spans over an AREA the size of about 14.0 billion parsecs (about 45.7 billion light-years).  We humans have "explored" a whopping 0.00000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the observable universe and an even smaller percentage of its lifespan (10,000 divided by 13.799 billion). [wiki] and [LINK]

If you were a sociologist or anthropologist and you explored 0.00000000000000000000000000000001 percent of all humans, that would be a minuscule fraction of a toenail for about a quarter of a picosecond.

This wouldn't tell you much about human behavior or composition.

This is sample bias.
BrutalTruth
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@Fallaneze
If a claim is more plausibly true than false, it is more rational to believe the claim rather than withhold belief or disbelieve it.

In fact it's not. You just rationalized delusion. Belief can only be justified by knowledge. You lack knowledge, therefore your belief is unjustified. Guess what unjustified belief is. Delusion.

de·lu·sion
/dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

  1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.

It is irrational to believe something is true when it's not. Since you don't KNOW it's true, it is possible that you are wrong. Therefore, if you were proven wrong, your belief is proven to be a delusion. Because of this, if there is ever a possibility of you being wrong in a belief, then that belief is irrational, which equates to delusion, proven by the above definition.

Theists are delusional.
janesix
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@PGA2.0
I am just a theist. I believe in a personal God of unknown qualities, or origin. 
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@3RU7AL
I'm not sure how a hypothetical Deistic Being adds any meaningfulness to human existence.  Please explain.

I haven't been following the discussion but this caught my eye.
I keep seeing this claim but I have yet to hear a valid reason for it. For whatever reason people equate a "Deist" God with one not existing, how does that follow? If ANY God were to exist, whether that be Deist or any Creator it means you have a specific origin and purpose for your individual self/soul. It would be like saying your entire history, family, experiences, knowledge all have no meaningfulness to you. Why would you think that? If any God exists don't you want to know about that? how would it NOT be relevant to you would be my question?

I'm aware the definition of Deist God says "is not directly involved" and so lets say that might be true, how does that change what I wrote above? do you really think a Creator would do all of this and just ball out though?? you can believe in a Deist God and still have meaning, in other words God created you for some reason and expression obviously because you are here.
Even if we erase all the God names religions put forth all this is still intact. If your soul comes from God then you are a apart of that, there is no way around it and in that alone should be meaningful to you at least on some level no? what if its true that God doesn't "directly interfere" but does so through you? in other words what if your connection to God was your core conscious awareness and not the external world? none of this has meaning to you?

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@BrutalTruth
Also, because the definition of truth requires fact and the definition of fact requires indisputability, only what is universally indisputable (empirically and scientifically verifiable phenomena and logical necessities) can be identified as TRUE

Everything else is pure imagination.
Fallaneze
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@BrutalTruth
Possessed information about something IS knowledge. Evidence is information indicating whether a claim is true or untrue. If there's more evidence favoring the claim, the belief is both rational and based on knowledge.

If you're implying all beliefs must be knowably certain before it is rational to believe them then that's nonsense. Math, logic, and your own self-awareness are the only things we're knowably certain of.
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@EtrnlVw
I haven't been following the discussion but this caught my eye.  I keep seeing this claim but I have yet to hear a valid reason for it. For whatever reason people equate a "Deist" God with one not existing, how does that follow? If ANY God were to exist, whether that be Deist or any Creator it means you have a specific origin and purpose for your individual self/soul. It would be like saying your entire history, family, experiences, knowledge all have no meaningfulness to you. Why would you think that? If any God exists don't you want to know about that? how would it NOT be relevant to you would be my question?  I'm aware the definition of Deist God says "is not directly involved" and so lets say that might be true, how does that change what I wrote above? do you really think a Creator would do all of this and just ball out though?? you can believe in a Deist God and still have meaning, in other words God created you for some reason and expression obviously because you are here.  Even if we erase all the God names religions put forth all this is still intact. If your soul comes from God then you are a apart of that, there is no way around it and in that alone should be meaningful to you at least on some level no? what if its true that God doesn't "directly interfere" but does so through you? in other words what if your connection to God was your core conscious awareness and not the external world? none of this has meaning to you?
Have you seen the 2012 Ridley Scott movie "Prometheus"?

That movie portrays a race of super intelligent beings that create humans (and all life on earth) but then lose interest and forget about them and go on to what they consider much more interesting things.

Kind of like a lab assistant that grows some mold in a petri dish.  Sure they "made it" but does that fact alone give its existence some sort of intrinsic "meaningfulness"?
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@PGA2.0
And it could be right and if you don't know then what is more sensible and reasonable to believe

I seem to have to repeat this fact over and over again with you people: Without KNOWLEDGE, NO BELIEF is reasonable. So, the answer to your question is: None. No belief whatsoever until knowledge, one way or the other, is gained.

and what is the case for God (I defend only the biblical God and will argue against any other as being nothing but the construct of the imagination)?
Lmao that is hilarious dude. Your god has no more proof or evidence than any other god ever claimed to exist, yet you say all other gods except yours is a delusion? I took you for a more reasonable person than that, but clearly I was wrong.

To answer your question: Same answer for your god.

Since you are a philosopher the question is how does a universe materialize naturally and which natural theory or paradigm (or the one you support - what is it?) is right if any?
Being  philosopher doesn't give me some magical ability to divine information out of thin air. I don't claim to know how the universe came about, and I'm not stupid enough to blame something I can't explain on something equally unexplained(like theists do). See, I'm a sane person, so I only claim to know things that I actually know.

If you can't say, then I see you divorcing yourself from the subject under discussion since you have made a judgment above.
Absolutely not. I say you're all delusional. That keeps me firmly in the subject.

Regarding evidence, the problem is that none of us were there
DING DING DING!!!! EXACTLY!!!! And that little statement right there, my friend, defeats everything else you said. You CANNOT KNOW, so stop acting like you can.

As an atheist, your worldview would see life coming from the non-living since you do not ascribe it coming from a living Being - God, would it not?
What the hell? No it wouldn't? Being an atheist means you don't claim to know where shit came from, not that it came from nothing. I don't try to answer things I can't answer dude. I go out and gather information so that I CAN answer it. Currently, humans have no ability to say where this universe came from, if it came from anywhere at all.
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@Fallaneze
Possessed information about something IS knowledge.

Wrong. If someone told me they saw Santa Clause breaking into someone's house, then I don't have knowledge that Santa Clause exists. I have knowledge that someone said Santa Clause exists. There is a HUGE difference between those two things that you don't seem to grasp.

Evidence is information indicating whether a claim is true or untrue. If there's more evidence favoring the claim, the belief is both rational and based on knowledge.

Brutal already said it, so I'm just gunna repeat his words as a response to that:

Because the definition of truth requires fact and the definition of fact requires indisputability, only what is universally indisputable (empirically and scientifically verifiable phenomena and logical necessities) can be identified as TRUE

Everything else is pure imagination.

Since your "belief" is not indisputable, it cannot be classified as a fact, and if it cannot be classified as a fact, then it cannot be justifiably believed as true, and any unjustified belief taken on that something is true is pure imagination, which means: DELUSION

Fallaneze
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@BrutalTruth
Yes, you would only have knowledge that someone said that. Not knowledge that santa exists. 

Here is where you need to draw your line: what is the definition of "knowledge"? What is the definition of "evidence"?

You didn't bother to address my statement that only math, logic, and self-awareness are the only things that are knowably certain. 




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@3RU7AL
Have you seen the 2012 Ridley Scott movie "Prometheus"?

Lol yes, that wasn't a Deist God though, that was some advanced race of beings. I think it's safe to say that was only a movie. 

That movie portrays a race of super intelligent beings that create humans (and all life on earth) but then lose interest and forget about them and go on to what they consider much more interesting things.

Yeah, that wouldn't qualify as God and that is not where I was going with this. I'm talking about God baby, not some advanced race where you were created as some freak project and then left to die lol come on man. 

Kind of like a lab assistant that grows some mold in a petri dish.  Sure they "made it" but does that fact alone give its existence some sort of intrinsic "meaningfulness"?

You seemed to move into some other direction I was going, did you do that on purpose? I'm talking about you being created by a God not produced in a lab by some aliens. If you were produced by God you are a part of God, like family...Deist God or whatever God exists.  
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@Fallaneze
If you wanna get technical, nothing is verifiably certain, because humans cannot verify that what they perceive, think, or know is actually real. All we can do is assume it is, because we have no other option. That is the flaw inherent to being intellectually finite. But, considering that that is a moot point, I'm ignoring that. If you'd like to discuss it, then discuss it with someone else, because that discussion is a useless, impossible to solve paradox.

As for everything else you said: I don't think i need to define those words for you. You seem to speak English.
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@BrutalTruth
It isn't a moot point because you're claiming a belief is rational only if it's knowable. This implies that beliefs must be based on verifiable certainty in order to be rational, yet you say that technically nothing is verifiably certain. 

If knowledge is defined as possessed information about something, belief in God can be based on knowledge. If knowledge is defined as verifiable certainty, then belief in God cannot be based on knowledge. This is why definitions matter.

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@Analgesic.Spectre
But be warned: if history is anything to go by, I'm one of the top 5 debaters of this site.
You're so incredibly special. Lol. Obviously our world is fine tuned for life or else there wouldn't be life. Does that mean god, no... there is other stuff much more important to support ideas of alternative realities...FT not being one of them. Bc, fine tune could just as easily be accidental or ID... there is no way to know. Debating you would mean i take either side... which is ridiculous to even ask for.