Presidential Immunity

Author: Double_R

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Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Demanding an audit and then pointing out that you only need to find one more than the purported margin to change the outcome is.
Oh right right right, Trump called Raffensburger because he was concerned about the integrity of Georgia's election count and just wanted to ensure the vote tally was accurate. And if it just so happens that they find one more vote than Trump lost but and thereby flip the state, well that was a positive but completely unintended consequence which had absolutely nothing to do with why Trump called him.

And it's also just coincidence that the seven state's who's integrity Trump was just trying to ensure also happened to be the seven state's Trump lost by a hair. Again, nothing to do with flipping the results, just making sure the count is accurate. You know, to protect the voters.

I don't know what you get out of pretending to be this stupid, but I hope it's working.

It's illegal to point out things that are illegal?
It is when it's part of a scheme to pressure someone into breaking the law.

Google harder.
Translation: "I have no argument left but am incapable of changing my mind and accepting defeat so I'm just going to pretend that somewhere out there is a point that I understand which refutes your facts and that you are the one too ignorant to find it"

You don't care that they are trying to imprison a man for an invented felony because you're just so sure it's wrong.
You are so dishonest it's headspinning.

I just explained that I had no position on what  the law here says because this is very complicated legalese and I am not a lawyer. So of course what you heard was "I know everything and can't possibly be wrong".
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@Double_R
You asked me whether anyone did surveys to tell if the Stormy Daniels story would have made a difference.

So yeah, entirely irrelevant.
if the story would not change enough people's minds to sway the election

then how can anyone pretend

that burying the story "defrauded voters" ?


also,


do you think that burying the hunter biden laptop story also "defrauded voters" ?
Double_R
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@3RU7AL
if the story would not change enough people's minds to sway the election

then how can anyone pretend

that burying the story "defrauded voters" ?
Because the law doesn't depend on whether the person succeeded in swaying the election. The act is what's (allegedly) illegal.  In the end there is no possible way to know whether this would have made the difference, so if that was a requirement the law would be unenforceable.

The act of concealing pertinent information from someone before they make a decision is fraud, by definition.

do you think that burying the hunter biden laptop story also "defrauded voters" ?
No one buried the story, it was out there for the entire world to see well before voters made their way to the polls. What happened was that multiple platforms and news outlets approached the story with extreme skepticism based on the lessons learned from the prior election, how absurd on its face the story appeared, the source of the story, and the timing. As the intelligence community correctly stated, the story had all of the hallmarks of Russian disinformation, so any intelligent and responsible individual would have waited to learn more before treating it as factual.

But even setting all of that aside, these platforms made their own decisions as was their right. None of them paid to gain exclusive access to the story so that they could ensure no one ever saw it. All they did was say "we're not going to let our platforms be used to spread this until we can verify it's not Russian propaganda". That's a perfectly normal, reasonable, and responsible thing to do.

Now if it was the Biden campaign who paid for exclusive access to the story so they could bury it right before the election, and then in order to further conceal it wrote the expense off as legal fees, then that would have been shady at best and illegal at worst. And every Trump supporter would have no issue seeing the problem with it.
3RU7AL
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@Double_R
Because the law doesn't depend on whether the person succeeded in swaying the election. The act is what's (allegedly) illegal.  In the end there is no possible way to know whether this would have made the difference, so if that was a requirement the law would be unenforceable.
For each of the thirty-four counts, the indictment accused Trump of acting “with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof.” Under New York law, intent to break another law is necessary to charge falsifying business records as a felony rather than a misdemeanor.


When reports of catch-and-kill instances do leak, they often dominate the headlines. In 2005, American Media Inc., which owns the National Enquirer, promised to "pay a woman $20,000 to sign a confidentiality agreement about an alleged affair" with then-California gubernatorial candidate Arnold Schwarzenegger, according to the Los Angeles Times. 

this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
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@Double_R
the story had all of the hallmarks of Russian disinformation
What are the hallmarks of the disinformation Hillary Clinton spread regarding Russia?

these platforms made their own decisions as was their right.
They didn't The FBI told them what to censor. The only decision they had was to defy the FBI or not. You can call that a right, but it's not one exercised often without serious real world consequences.
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@Double_R
do you think that burying the hunter biden laptop story also "defrauded voters" ?
No one buried the story


[Double_R] The act of concealing pertinent information from someone before they make a decision is fraud, by definition.

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@ADreamOfLiberty
Lol, I was adding to my post JUST as you typed that...
Double_R
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@3RU7AL
this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
Of course not, it's the same thing for most crimes.

If I walk into a sporting goods store and purchase two ski masks and two hunting rifles, I have done nothing illegal. But if my intent when making that purchase was to give it to my two friends so they could rob a bank, I am now an accessory to burglary.

Actions are not taken in isolation. No where else in life would we excuse behavior on the basis of "if we eliminate the context sounding this act then there's no wrongdoing".

Nowhere.
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@Double_R
this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
Of course not, it's the same thing for most crimes.

If I walk into a sporting goods store and purchase two ski masks and two hunting rifles, I have done nothing illegal. But if my intent when making that purchase was to give it to my two friends so they could rob a bank, I am now an accessory to burglary.

Actions are not taken in isolation. No where else in life would we excuse behavior on the basis of "if we eliminate the context sounding this act then there's no wrongdoing".

Nowhere.
what's the difference between the arnold schwarzenegger case and the trump case under discussion regarding "defrauding voters" ?

what's the difference between the arnold schwarzenegger case and the trump case under discussion regarding "defrauding voters" ?

When reports of catch-and-kill instances do leak, they often dominate the headlines. In 2005, American Media Inc., which owns the National Enquirer, promised to "pay a woman $20,000 to sign a confidentiality agreement about an alleged affair" with then-California gubernatorial candidate Arnold Schwarzenegger, according to the Los Angeles Times. 

this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
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@Double_R
If I walk into a sporting goods store and purchase two ski masks and two hunting rifles, I have done nothing illegal. But if my intent when making that purchase was to give it to my two friends so they could rob a bank, I am now an accessory to burglary.
Now imagine that nobody was indicted for burglary but you're still getting charged with a felony as an accessory.

Your "rule of law" is not my rule of law.

Your "democracy" is not my democracy.
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@Greyparrot
What are the hallmarks of the disinformation Hillary Clinton spread regarding Russia?
Your claim, you tell me.

They didn't The FBI told them what to censor. The only decision they had was to defy the FBI or not. You can call that a right, but it's not one exercised often without serious real world consequences.
You guys are such liars. You're talking about one platform, I'm talking about the entire media apparatus. Beyond that, Facebook decided to work with the FBI, which makes perfect sense when your goal is to stay clear of a foreign disinformation campaign.

This of course has nothing to do with the actual topic, just a predictable redirect which is what happens when you have no argument. So feel free to reply to the above paragraph of you want to, it is irrelevant to this topic so I will ignore it.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Wow, I didn't know that refusing to comment on a story = suppressing that story.

What's when funnier is that the FBI who decided not to comment which you have somehow equated to "burying the story" ultimately reported to Donald Trump. So why aren't you going after Trump for suppressing the laptop story?
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@3RU7AL
what's the difference between the arnold schwarzenegger case and the trump case under discussion regarding "defrauding voters" ?
Don't know anything about the Schwarzenegger story. You tell me - did the story contain every element I described above? If so, care to provide a summary? Cause if not, I'm not interested.

this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
I already explained this. Did you read it? Do you have any thoughts on it?
3RU7AL
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@Double_R
what's the difference between the arnold schwarzenegger case and the trump case under discussion regarding "defrauding voters" ?
Don't know anything about the Schwarzenegger story. You tell me - did the story contain every element I described above? If so, care to provide a summary? Cause if not, I'm not interested.

this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
I already explained this. Did you read it? Do you have any thoughts on it?

the schwarzenegger case is an example of a tabloid paying for a story in the middle of a political campaign with the intent to kill the story

the article mentions this is COMMON PRACTICE

but strangely, this is NOT CONSIDERED A CRIME


killing embarrassing stories during a political campaign is normal, think of JFK and marilyn monroe


this is not a crime

this has never been a crime
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@Double_R
Wow, I didn't know that refusing to comment on a story = suppressing that story.
Suspending a news outlet and anyone who quotes that outlet is quintessential suppression.


So why aren't you going after Trump for suppressing the laptop story?
He didn't suppress it and it's your absurd legal theory not mine.
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@3RU7AL
this is not a crime

this has never been a crime
It's also never been considered "campaign spending" regulated by the FEC. It still is not, but pseudo-courts are content to pretend.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It's also never been considered "campaign spending" regulated by the FEC. It still is not, but pseudo-courts are content to pretend.
using campaign funds and falsifying records is a MISDEMEANOR

and if they left it at that i'm sure trump would be more than happy to pay the fine
ADreamOfLiberty
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@3RU7AL
It's also never been considered "campaign spending" regulated by the FEC. It still is not, but pseudo-courts are content to pretend.
using campaign funds and falsifying records is a MISDEMEANOR
No, it was not campaign funds. The insane claim is that since they can imagine that he didn't want sex scandals to harm his chances of election ANY payment regarding non-disclosure settlements is campaign spending.


falsifying records
There is no falsifying records. Paying a lawyer means "legal fees" is substantially true.


and if they left it at that i'm sure trump would be more than happy to pay the fine
I wouldn't be happy with that. What happens when they start stealing huge amounts of money from candidates who aren't ultra rich?

It is morally and practically unacceptable to make up crimes regardless of how light the punishment.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The Federal Election Commission rules examine this through the lens of whether campaign funds have been put to personal use; the commission applies something called the Irrespective Test. The law says that something is personal if it’s "any commitment, obligation, or expense of a person that would exist irrespective of the candidate’s election campaign."

By that standard, said Emory School of Law professor Michael Kang, "the circumstances and context here are suspicious," but it’s no slam-dunk that the payment was an expenditure on behalf of the campaign.  

"Cohen may have been sufficiently involved in Trump’s personal dealings, perhaps with other similar transactions in the past, that they can credibly argue the hush payment would’ve been handled in similar fashion even if Trump were not a candidate," Kang said.

Former FEC chair Bradley Smith told us he sees evidence from Daniels that places this outside the realm of the campaign.

"Daniels herself has said that years before Trump declared for president, she was threatened about not disclosing any affair, suggesting, if she's telling the truth, that her silence was desired long before Trump became a candidate," Smith said. [[LINK]]

ok

so, NOT specifically paid with campaign money
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There is no falsifying records. Paying a lawyer means "legal fees" is substantially true.
In the MAGA MORON world.

If you paid your lawyer to have sex with you, would that constitute legal fees?

Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Now imagine that nobody was indicted for burglary but you're still getting charged with a felony as an accessory.
 Sounds pretty messed up. Do you have a point?

Your "rule of law" is not my rule of law.
Yeah, that is obvious. My rule of law is about a process that begins with crafting laws, and following systems that determine whether those laws are broken. Your rule of law is one in which you are the only arbiter of what is legal vs what is not, any perceived wrong on your part nullifies the entire system, and every judge, prosecutor, juror, lawyer, professor or scholar who disagrees with you is fake and in on some plot to destroy the country.
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@Double_R
do you know which specific law was violated in this case ?
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@3RU7AL
so, NOT specifically paid with campaign money
No, that's still not the same issue.

There is campaign spending (in theory) and there is campaign money.

Campaign money comes from registered and monitored escrow accounts. When you donate to a campaign the money goes into those accounts. There are all sorts of limits about who can give how much when. I think typically a candidate is allowed to spend as much of their personal money on a campaign as they want BUT they still need to route it through a registered account due to election laws requiring transparency.

Spending money on a campaign with any money regardless of whether it was personal or a donation when you don't disclose it would be a violation of the law (or FEC policy hard to keep track of the difference these days).

They are claiming that hush money is a campaign expenditure therefore it should have been paid out through the campaign account(s) and failure to do so is illegal shadow campaigning. If Trump had paid Cohen from the campaign account, then you could say it was "campaign money", then you could say "people donated to silence Stormy Daniels". That did not happen.

These laws are reminiscent of zoning laws in that nobody really knows what they mean and you can use them to go after anyone.

They have been twisted to attack right-tribers before, see Dinesh D'Souza.

In the case of these Cohen payments though, it is beyond all pale. A payment from a personal account to a lawyer labeled as "legal expenses" has now been declared to be "campaign spending" without any input from the FEC or anyone involved.

Basically if you went out to buy an apple, they'll claim you're trying to illegally hide campaign spending because if you don't eat you'll look unhealthy on camera and that might hurt your chances. If you said "I would have bought that apple anyway" they're saying "No you would buy something unhealthy like a snickers bar, our jury will decide these matters".

Sane people know campaign spending is when you spend money on advertisements, leaflets, mailers, campaign events. It does not include anything else that could possibly be explicable without a campaign. The Politico article you reference is stretching until you can see through it to even describe it so loosely.

As you pointed out, if non-disclosure agreements WHICH HAPPEN ALL THE TIME were always campaign spending then what about arnold schwarzenegger and the countless other examples of paid non-disclosure?

Why is it that seeking to negotiate and execute non-disclosure agreements is listed on the portfolios of thousands of lawyers? I have a theory: It's a legal practice, which means paying for it is a legal expense.

HILARIOUSLY they can't even prove Trump wanted to pay Daniels to be quiet even though he has ABSOLUTELY EVERY RIGHT TO DO THAT and TO LABEL IT "LEGAL EXPENSES"

How many hoops was that?
1.) Redefine "defrauding the voter" to include what Facebook did to the New York Post
2.) Redefine campaign spending to include pervasive legal negotiations that had never been held to be campaign spending before
3.) Ignore the fact that the underlying "crime" was never charged
4.) Redefine paying a lawyer for legal services as "anything but legal expenses"
5.) Rely only on the word of a convicted and admitted liar to establish an intent to seek a non-disclosure agreement
6.) Bring Stormy on to talk about fictional sex where she felt drugged and powerless when it's totally irreverent to the already (see 1-5) totally insane case
7.) Judge fails to recuse himself even though daughter is raising millions on getting Trump

That's seven fucking bananas on the famous Dershowitz "banana republic" scale.
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@Double_R
Now imagine that nobody was indicted for burglary but you're still getting charged with a felony as an accessory.
 Sounds pretty messed up. Do you have a point?
Yea. There is no real court case against Trump in New York because the analog of the burglary was a vaguely alluded to campaign finance violation that was never charged much less convicted.

This means there is no genuine court standing in judgement of Trump and you are a hack with no principles.

The constitution protects the federal government from fake courts in insane pockets of seditious zealots via the impeachments clause, but because you are a hack you don't acknowledge that too. You are just crossing your fingers and hoping the right-tribe zealots don't have the gumption to follow suite, but it's a bad bet.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Basically if you went out to buy an apple, they'll claim you're trying to illegally hide campaign spending because if you don't eat you'll look unhealthy on camera and that might hurt your chances. If you said "I would have bought that apple anyway" they're saying "No you would buy something unhealthy like a snickers bar, our jury will decide these matters".
ok, i wasn't sure which side of this you were trying to represent
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a vaguely alluded to campaign finance violation that was never charged much less convicted.
Why wasn’t he charged genius? Because he didn’t do it? No. Because it wasn’t illegal? No

If the MAGA MORONS had been around in the early 70’s, NIXON would never had resigned. That’s why they’re known as morons. Republicans had some integrity in the 70s.

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@ADreamOfLiberty
Also: ignore the 2 signed documents where she asserted nothing happened.
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Also: ignore the 2 signed documents where she asserted nothing happened.
Do you really believe Trump didn’t have sex with Stormy and Karen McDougal? Do you really believe that? Nobody believes that.

The MAGA MORONS would rather believe that they were right to vote for Trump, he’s telling the truth and all the courts in America are corrupt, than admit they were wrong. Talk about fragile.

Double_R
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@3RU7AL
the schwarzenegger case is an example of a tabloid paying for a story in the middle of a political campaign with the intent to kill the story
And tabloids are free to do that all they want. Tabloids aren't running for president and therefore aren't subject to campaign finance laws.

When you can explain the overlap been the Schwarzenegger campaign's involvement and falsification of business records with Trump's then you might have a case of a legal double standard, assuming California's laws are the same.

Till then, the fact that you continue to compare these two while leaving out the actual crime alleged here tells me you aren't well versed on the basics. Either that or you're just being fundamentally dishonest. Either way, if you are really interested in the legal theory here I suggest you spend some time googling it instead of pressing me to explain it even though I've said multiple times already that I'm not a lawyer and am really not interested in the legal manutia of this case.
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
There is no real court case against Trump in New York because the analog of the burglary was a vaguely alluded to campaign finance violation that was never charged much less convicted.
The burglary example was a response to 3RU7AL who implied that an act which "by itself" is not a crime cannot be charged as a crime, a claim which is easily false.

You keep alluding to this campaign finance violation that was "never charged". You do know that is one of the central elements on trial right now... Right?