Presidential Immunity

Author: Double_R

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#121
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R
This conversation isn’t about an individual law, it’s about how the constitution applies to any law that seeks to hold the president accountable for his actions as president, so these concepts are relevant and necessary to address.
Constitution doesn't say anything about motivations, so no it isn't. It specifies who decides, that is all.
Funny, not one single justice on the SC or any of the lower courts seemed to think the constitution needed to specifically talk about motivations in order to debate this topic.
You can debate whatever you want, but if it's not in the constitution or implied by the constitution it isn't a constitutional debate.

Now if you want to talk to the supreme court, go talk to the supreme court. If you want to talk to people on this website post a topic on this website.


I’ve already explained why multiple times
No, you asserted it.


It's not asking that is illegal, it's the forging and breaking election laws.
Pressuring a campaign official to find a way to hand you the victory when you lost is illegal.
Then everyone who has publicly or privately expressed objection to voter ID laws is a criminal


and threatening them (as Trump did if you actually listened to the entire call) is even clearer.
Threatening them with the law. Suddenly you're not about the rule of law anymore when Trump is wielding it.
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#122
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You can debate whatever you want, but if it's not in the constitution or implied by the constitution it isn't a constitutional debate.
Wow, that’s news to the 9 justices on the SC, all of the judges on the appellate court, the justice department, Trump’s legal team, the entire media, and every other lawyer and constitutional scholar in the country.

As usual, the only expert whose opinion is worth anything on the subject is ADOL on debate art.

I’ve already explained why multiple times
No, you asserted it.
Asserted it, and then explained it. That was the part where you tuned out. Better to read arguments before pretending they don’t exist, just like this sentence which I never really wrote that isn’t really part of my post which your brain is probably eliminating from memory right now.

Pressuring a campaign official to find a way to hand you the victory when you lost is illegal.
Then everyone who has publicly or privately expressed objection to voter ID laws is a criminal
It never ceases to amaze me how incapable Trump voters are of telling different things apart from each other.

Go ahead, tell me that you don’t know the difference between Joe Schmo on Twitter ranting about the election results and the president of the United States calling the Secretary of a state, telling them to recalculate the vote and “notifying” them that if they don’t do it they will face the consequences of the Justice system (without any evidence of laws being broken).

Go on….

Threatening them with the law. Suddenly you're not about the rule of law anymore when Trump is wielding it.
It wasn’t Trump’s to wield genius. That’s not how the rule of law works.
#123
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
That’s not how the rule of law works.
Oh, so you can't look for 11,000 fraudulently tallied votes for Biden if your name starts with a T?

Some rule of law....
#124
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R
You can debate whatever you want, but if it's not in the constitution or implied by the constitution it isn't a constitutional debate.
Wow, that’s news to the 9 justices on the SC, all of the judges on the appellate court, the justice department, Trump’s legal team, the entire media, and every other lawyer and constitutional scholar in the country.

As usual, the only expert whose opinion is worth anything on the subject is ADOL on debate art.
lol, there are no idiotic voters to impress with your sophistry Double_R. Could you please practice your sick sport on someone else? You're wasting my time.


Go on….
You go on, you're asserting it's illegal, but all you've said is "pressuring". It's all pressuring to change the outcome by changing the procedure.


It wasn’t Trump’s to wield genius.
Then there was no threat *grins with halo hovering*
#125
Greyparrot
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@FLRW
By design, this insulates them from the temporary passions of the public, and allows them to apply the law with only justice in mind, and not electoral or political concerns.
Cool, so your tribe can finally stop calling Thomas a right wing ultra fascist nigro.


#126
IwantRooseveltagain
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Kinda like how Trump fully repaying a European bank was zero quantifiable material harm to New York?
So we should all be able to lie on our mortgage applications? How did that work out in 2008 when borrowers and lenders both misrepresented their credit worthiness and the quality of the loans going in to mortgage backed securities? It was the greatest financial collapse since the Great Depression.



#127
IwantRooseveltagain
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@ebuc
Sleepy MAGA MORONS. Like a cool teenager, nothing impresses them. 


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#128
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Oh, so you can't look for 11,000 fraudulently tallied votes for Biden if your name starts with a T?
You have to demonstrate that there are fraudulently cast ballots before having a reason to look for them genius.

And looking for them is the job of the state officials who were in charge of administering the election, not of the candidates to declare the ballots fraudulent and then tell the Secretary of State that they needed to go find them.
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#129
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Go on….
You go on, you're asserting it's illegal, but all you've said is "pressuring". It's all pressuring to change the outcome by changing the procedure.
It is illegal, read the law and then perhaps the dictionary.

Well at least you didn’t try to argue that ridiculous position, that gives some hope that you’re really not that dumb even though it does show that you are fundamentally dishonest, with yourself at best.

Here, let’s try this: Do you think there is a reason why there is a process for challenging election results written into the law that involves a court of law with legal filings, an established burden of truth, legal representation on both sides, and a judge, but what is not written into that law is the right to just call the person in charge of elections and telling them how many votes you need then to go out and "find"?

It wasn’t Trump’s to wield genius.
Then there was no threat *grins with halo hovering*
If it wasn't Trump's to wield that's part of what makes it so egregious. Second, what stupid statement. Everyone knows that Trump had many more ways to go after people, like his Twitter account that every republican is terrified of. The fact that he recorded the call itself demonstrates this, he knew Trump was going to attack him if he said no, this is why the law works the way it does.


#130
ebuc
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IWRoos...."Sleepy MAGA MORONS. Like a cool teenager, nothing impresses them."
OGPar....."MAGA yawn"...
1} yawns at corruption,

2} yawns at truth,

3} yawns at moral integrity,

4} yawns at Judge,

5} yawns and occasionally slanders, ergo, the gag orders for lack of moral integrity ----OGParrot yawns *( )*......

6} yawns at facts

7} yawning is the new MAGA symbolism sort of like giving the finger at others. The old.... stick it where the sun dont shine yawn *( )*....

We need T-shirts showing huge MAGA crowds yawning ..*( )*...*( )*...*( )*.....then falling asleep in court ZZZzzzz........

$1000. fine for engaging in *(?)*  is way nothing much for Trumpet, ergo, his continual *( )* sticking it to judge, the prosecutors and any who do not cow tow to the Trumpet and his MAGA  Cult of moronic followers.
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#131
Double_R
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Kinda like how Trump fully repaying a European bank was zero quantifiable material harm to New York?
So we should all be able to lie on our mortgage applications? How did that work out in 2008 when borrowers and lenders both misrepresented their credit worthiness and the quality of the loans going in to mortgage backed securities? It was the greatest financial collapse since the Great Depression.
When it comes to the duty or responsibility to hold someone accountable there are two general reasons; the first is based on the immediate harm caused. If I assault someone and that person is harmed I must now be held accountable for it.

The second is based on the preservation of systems that are necessary for a multitude of reasons (safety, profit, etc.). If I violate a policy at my job and am not punished that will encourage others to violate it as well, which in turn will result in harm to the company regardless of whether my individual actions resulted in any immediate harm.

Part of how you know something is a cult is when continuing to believe in it literally makes you dumber. Ideas that apply everywhere in life that are so basic and so simple to understand, all of a sudden have to be re-written in order to keep your cult allegiance straight. It's absolutely remarkable how Trumpers cannot see this.
#132
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@ebuc
sorry, but 12 years of Orangeman bad is exhausting. Get some new jokes.
#133
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
Part of how you know something is a cult is when continuing to believe in it literally makes you dumber.
Cue the MSNBC/WAPO crowd saying Biden is in his prime and smarter now than he ever was....

You have to demonstrate that there are fraudulently cast ballots before having a reason to look for them
Chicken and egg fallacy, you can't demonstrate without looking first.
Also, chill with the insults, it's just signalling you are more angry than reasonable.


#134
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Double_R
Oh, so you can't look for 11,000 fraudulently tallied votes for Biden if your name starts with a T?
You have to demonstrate that there are fraudulently cast ballots before having a reason to look for them genius.
No, illegally cast or counted; and you don't know anything if you choose not to look.


Go on….
You go on, you're asserting it's illegal, but all you've said is "pressuring". It's all pressuring to change the outcome by changing the procedure.
It is illegal, read the law
Your claim, your homework.


Here, let’s try this: Do you think there is a reason why there is a process for challenging election results written into the law that involves a court of law with legal filings, an established burden of truth, legal representation on both sides, and a judge, but what is not written into that law is the right to just call the person in charge of elections and telling them how many votes you need then to go out and "find"?
There is no process for challenging election results. People have just used civil suits in lieu of congressional debate and it is an ill fitting mechanism indeed.


It wasn’t Trump’s to wield genius.
Then there was no threat *grins with halo hovering*
If it wasn't Trump's to wield that's part of what makes it so egregious.
So he can wield it even if it's not his to wield?


Everyone knows that Trump had many more ways to go after people, like his Twitter account that every republican is terrified of.
Super scary, people might listen to him.... you know... like they might listen to CNN... or all those "intelligence" officials that all signed a letter that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation when it was in fact NOT.

They might listen to Biden when he lies about what Trump said at Charlottesville.

They might listen to Adam Schiff when he assured the nation there was secret damning evidence.

They might listen to Alvin Bragg who doesn't care what crime is being obscured or whether a guilty verdict was ever reached.

Yes speech can be very dangerous.


The fact that he recorded the call itself demonstrates this, he knew Trump was going to attack him if he said no, this is why the law works the way it does.
The funniest part was the call was illegally recorded. "this is the way the law works" rofl... clown


#135
IwantRooseveltagain
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sorry, but 12 years of Orangeman bad is exhausting. Get some new jokes.
Not a joke. It’s a commentary on the mindset of the MAGA MORONS 

#136
IwantRooseveltagain
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No, illegally cast or counted; and you don't know anything if you choose not to look.
That would be like investigating for murder when there is no dead body.

The people who run elections know what they are doing. They know when to investigate voter fraud or if there is a problem with the voting machines.

The MAGA MORONS listen to a known liar and suspect foul play…because they’re morons.

#137
Greyparrot
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Not a joke.
That's Biden's signature catchphrase, because he knows if he doesn't clarify, then anything else he says is a joke by default.

That would be like investigating for murder when there is no dead body.
Which happens all the time. Sometimes the body is never found, yet the court can still convict. Glad you agree with MAGA today.
#138
IwantRooseveltagain
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Which happens all the time. Sometimes the body is never found, yet the court can still convict. Glad you agree with MAGA today.
Wrong again as usual.

There are no murder investigations without a body. Perhaps a missing person investigation, but murder? No.

As usual you are clueless. A clueless substitute teacher who seldom works.

#139
Greyparrot
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Welcome aboard the Maga train. TOOT TOOT!
#140
IwantRooseveltagain
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Oh my, look who is using Wikipedia now! Toot toot. Next you’ll be quoting WAPO 
#141
3RU7AL
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@Double_R
The second is based on the preservation of systems that are necessary for a multitude of reasons (safety, profit, etc.). If I violate a policy at my job and am not punished that will encourage others to violate it as well, which in turn will result in harm to the company regardless of whether my individual actions resulted in any immediate harm.
you have to admit

"attempting to defraud the american voter"


is a bit of a stretch


i mean


have they even done any surveys to determine if this stormy daniels thing would have made any difference whatsoever ?
#142
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Next you’ll be quoting WAPO 

I'll leave that to the "experts" who think you need a body to convict someone of a murder.
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#143
Double_R
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@ADreamOfLiberty
you don't know anything if you choose not to look.
That's called an audit, which is done statewide, not only in the places where a conspiracy theory president of the United States who is also the leading candidate demands that you look to find him the votes he needs to flip the result.

It is illegal, read the law
Your claim, your homework.
The prosecutors already did it when they filled the indictment. Read it.

There is no process for challenging election results. People have just used civil suits in lieu of congressional debate and it is an ill fitting mechanism indeed.
Civil suits is the process. That's how a rule of law works.

So he can wield it even if it's not his to wield?
It's called lying and intimidating. Not a difficult thing to understand, if you were actually trying to.

Everyone knows that Trump had many more ways to go after people, like his Twitter account that every republican is terrified of.
Super scary, people might listen to him
Yes, it is scary, and it's a fact objectively proven by the increase in death threats received by every person Trump goes after. It was also remarked on by Mitt Romney who shared in his book stories of senators who voted to acquit Trump in his impeachment trials out of great for the safety of their family.

That is why there is no requirement of threats to be explicit in the law, the rest of the country can figure out what threat is even if you pretend you don't.

like they might listen to CNN... or all those "intelligence" officials that all signed a letter that the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation when it was in fact NOT.
More evidence of the effectiveness of propaganda. You are the epitome of a puppet follower.

First off all, the fact that intelligence officials signed this letter has absolutely nothing to do with CNN. CNN didn't tell them what to do, CNN reported on it, because that's what as actual news networks do.

Second and more importantly, they didn't say it was Russian disinformation, they said it has all of the hallmarks of Russian disinformation. Those are two completely different things. 

The funniest part was the call was illegally recorded. "this is the way the law works" rofl... clown
As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. The recording was legal, Georgia is a one party consent state. Google it.
#144
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@Double_R
It was also remarked on by Mitt Romney who.... 
Mitt is very unpopular across the country. Just saying.
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#145
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Part of how you know something is a cult is when continuing to believe in it literally makes you dumber.
Cue the MSNBC/WAPO crowd saying Biden is in his prime and smarter now than he ever was....
Queue the deflection...

Chicken and egg fallacy, you can't demonstrate without looking first.
Nonsense. Look at what happened in NC in 2018. They looked at the returns and discovered a significant irregularity (a real one, not the silly ignorant examples MAGA followers point to), so they investigated and lo and behold, the republicans were the ones cheating to try and steal the election.

You need a predicate to begin an investigation. Trump throwing a temper tantrum doesn't qualify.

Also, chill with the insults, it's just signalling you are more angry than reasonable.
Sometimes they're warranted. The positions you guys take in these debates when defending Trump are so absurd they just don't deserve to be taken seriously. Like I said, these are rules and/or ideas we apply unquestionably everywhere else in life but suddenly now that we're talking about Trump they go completely out the window.

It reminds me of arguing with 9/11 truthers and watching them twist their entire view of the world around the conspiracy instead of applying it the other way around to recognize how ridiculous it is. What's frustrating is knowing that there are so many millions more Americans doing the same thing. This is why we are on the brink of national collapse. History will be studying this period in American politics for centuries wondering how so many fell into thle MAGA cult.
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#146
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
It was also remarked on by Mitt Romney who.... 
Mitt is very unpopular across the country. Just saying.
Yeah, he's unpopular because he's a reminder to republicans on what they used to stand for before giving themselves to the MAGA cult. So what?
#147
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@Double_R
Queue the deflection...
So you passively admit America is firmly rooted into 2 warring cults.

Enjoy the revolution.

Yeah, he's unpopular because <insert Orangeman bad NPC ramblings...>....
Clearly you didn't read the Salon article. Unpopular and Unelectable politicians are poor source material for just about any relevant discussion. What's worse, the article makes a compelling claim that Mitt actively paved the way for Trump. Only the most cursory examination of Mitt would lend credence to anything out of his mouth.
#148
ADreamOfLiberty
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@3RU7AL
have they even done any surveys to determine if this stormy daniels thing would have made any difference whatsoever ?
Doesn't matter if it would make a difference. Congress and the FBI would not survive a "legal interpretation" which claims that any attempt to hide information from the public is defrauding the American voter. (also there is no immunity so all these people can be guilty even if their job is to keep secrets).

They called releasing Clinton's emails "election interference" even though there hasn't any credible shadow of doubt cast on their authenticity.

It all boils down to "How dare people who I claim but can't prove were Russian release accurate information at an inconvenient time!"

They stopped that from happening again with the Hunter Biden laptop story, and polls have been conducted on that which showed it would have changed the outcome.

So if paying someone to hide information (which Trump maintains was not information but a lie) is "defrauding the American voter" and releasing information is "election interference" then the only way to avoid destroying American democracy is to know nothing.

The real pattern is simple: Any act which causes people to be less likely to vote for corrupt war mongers is a "threat to our democracy"

I say unrepentant liars, state secrets, and 'elections' that can't be audited are the real threats to our democracy.
#149
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You know that all along he was just a threat to Democrats, they just couldn't spell the word right.
#150
3RU7AL
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Doesn't matter if it would make a difference. Congress and the FBI would not survive a "legal interpretation" which claims that any attempt to hide information from the public is defrauding the American voter. (also there is no immunity so all these people can be guilty even if their job is to keep secrets).
bingo