Trolley problems

Author: Benjamin

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Total: 65
#31
cristo71
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@Benjamin
12 dead infants is worse than 1 dead infant.
As I stated in post 27, it is 12 adults, not 12 infants. Of course, you can still claim that numbers always matter over youth and innocence. I’m just asking what the moral philosophy underpinning that is?

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#32
Benjamin
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@cristo71
I have never heard a convincing argument that 1 infant is worth more than 1 adult, not to mention multiple.
#33
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@Benjamin
Not really answering the question I posed to you but oh, well.

Now, imagine the same scenario but… the infant is yours.
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#34
Benjamin
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@cristo71
I know what is the right thing to do but I don't know if I have the strenght to do it.
#35
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@Benjamin
The mother/your significant other might thank you for your moment of weakness.
#36
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@Benjamin
Do you pull the lever for Biden and kill 1 million people overseas you will never see or hear about....

Or do you refuse to pull the lever and cause a civil war where a million Americans die in the process of ending systemic classism?
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#37
Benjamin
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@Greyparrot
ending systemic classism
Amazing!

A communist revolution that purpotedly killed like a gazillion people worldwide failed to eliminate systemic classism. And you offer it removed in return for only 1 million lives?

Thats a steal. I would take that easily. Systemic classism kills way more people over the long run anyways, and it makes society shitty as well.
#38
Reece101
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@Benjamin
If everything is equal then it’s a no brainer. I don't want to lose my family. Plus, they won't be able to retaliate if we are twice as strong as them.
But they can.
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#39
Benjamin
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@Reece101
Who do you think will win. Humanity, or aliens that were equal to humanity but were cut in half. 1 vs 0.5, not a battle the aliens want. Plus the thousand lightyears distance aswell.
#40
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@Benjamin
Amazing!

A communist revolution that purpotedly killed like a gazillion people worldwide failed to eliminate systemic classism. And you offer it removed in return for only 1 million lives?

Thats a steal. I would take that easily. Systemic classism kills way more people over the long run anyways, and it makes society shitty as well.

Ultra Based.

I never said it would be a communist revolution though as communism is always systemic oppression and classist as it arbitrarily defines who is "a worker" and who is a "non-worker"

It would be a libertarian revolution where the worker is finally allowed to own the means of production (private property) with no government interference.

#41
Reece101
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@Benjamin
It’s not about winning, it’s about the lose of future lives. Why would they be a thousand lightyears away?
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#42
Benjamin
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@Reece101
Well even if they were on the closest star, only 4 lightyears away, it would still take 100.000 years to travel to us with current rocket technology.
#43
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@Benjamin
Why not solar sails? 
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#44
Benjamin
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@Reece101
Even then, accelleration to even 20% of lightspeed would take a lot of time, more than what you have on a 4 lightyear journey, and they'd have to decellerate as well. 

Plus, any space fleet they managed to transport to our system, we could easily double given that we have double the people and a lot of time to prepare while they travel.
#45
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@Benjamin
Don’t need to decelerate if all you’re delivering are weapons. 
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#46
Benjamin
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@Reece101
True I guess. But we could just have earth execute me specifically for genocide and have the justice broadcast to them before they have time to build interstellar balistic misiles.
#47
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@cristo71
Quiet trolley, deaf people.

I assume.
#48
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@Benjamin
Now, imagine an infant (not yours) vs a group of 12 adults, who each have a prominent swastika tattoo.
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#49
Benjamin
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@cristo71
That depends. If they look european, then they are probably neonazis, which would eliminate any sympathy I have for them. But if they are hindus, they are good and normal people.
#50
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@Benjamin
Also, Hindus tend not to tattoo swastikas, I think. In any case, your moral code doesn’t simply involve the number of lives at stake, but also your personal feelings toward the people involved?
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#51
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@cristo71
Strictly ethically speaking, their lives have the same significance as mine, or maybe slightly less since they are actively making society a far worse place for others, unlike me. 

But my personal actions are controlled by my emotions. I am not sure that I would have enough sympathy for nazis to sacrifice my own child for them, regardless of ethical analysis.
#52
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@Benjamin
Basically, if your moral code is more compelling, you align with that, but if your personal feelings are more compelling, you acquiesce to those?
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#53
Benjamin
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@cristo71
I am not sure, because I have never been in that situation. But on principle and in a vacum, killing 12 nazis is more immoral than killing a toddler, regardless of how you feel. 

12 days later

#54
3RU7AL
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@Benjamin
I won't choose either one, but hide and do nothing, let the track decide. The survivor should not feel any guilt from knowing that their life came at somebody else's expense.
this is the solution to EVERY "trolley problem"

you are NOT morally culpable for acts that you did not initiate

and you are only obligated to protect individuals you are legally responsible for

#55
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@n8nrgim
I think they boil down to whether the ends don't justify the means, or whether proportionalism is moral. I think dogmatism goes too far with trolley problems and things like terrorists and torture and abortion etc
the implicit premise here is that all humans value every other individual human equally

and the obvious fact of the matter is that implicit premise is provably false

#56
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@n8nrgim
If there's a train going at 5 and all u have to do is pull a lever where it changes course and kills only 1... it's immoral not to pull the lever even tho ur action resulted in someone's death
which moral framework are you subscribing to when drawing this conclusion ?
#57
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@Greyparrot
 communism is always systemic oppression
not ALWAYS

Anarcho-communism, also known as anarchist communism, is the belief that hierarchies, money, and social classes should not exist, and that the means of production should be held in common by society.[1][2] Anarcho-communists support direct democracy and a network of voluntary associations, workers' councils, decentralized economic planning and a gift economy in which everyone will be free to satisfy their needs.
Some well-known anarcho-communist writers are Peter Kropotkin, Ricardo Flores Magón and Nestor Makhno. Anarcho-communism is opposed to the more authoritarian forms of communism advocated by Leninists and Maoists. These groups have violently clashed in Russia, Korea and Spain over their beliefs. Some examples of anarcho-communism in practice include the Makhnovshchina, Shinmin Autonomous Region, and the Revolutionary Spain.
#58
3RU7AL
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@cristo71
Basically, if your moral code is more compelling, you align with that, but if your personal feelings are more compelling, you acquiesce to those?

PRIMAL ETHICS

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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#59
Benjamin
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@3RU7AL

you are NOT morally culpable for acts that you did not initiate
So if a stranger is getting murdered, and you did not call the police, then you are not morally culpable for the murder being successfull? I don't think so. Passivity is also a choice.

#60
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@Benjamin
So if a stranger is getting murdered, and you did not call the police, then you are not morally culpable for the murder being successful? I don't think so. Passivity is also a choice.
In most cases, people are under no legal duty to report a crime. “Failure to report a crime” is generally not a crime in and of itself. This is true even if someone: knew about the criminal activity in advance, witnessed the commission of a crime while it unfolded or took place, and/or; learned of the offense after it took place.



why do you think it's often so difficult for cops to take witness statements ?