evidence: God, christianity, miracles, NDEs, the afterlife

Author: n8nrgim

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#1
n8nrgim
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i use two unconventional proofs for god. one is healing miracles, i dont see the kinds of miracles that happen to theists happen to atheists, or even non christians honestly, despite looking for that evidence and asking around. i realize that just because we dont see it, doesn't mean it's not there, but this is still significant. 

the other one is that the large majority of atheists come back believing in God after NDEs. it's irrational to say there's no evidence for the afterlife, when you get into the science of NDEs, and the credibility of NDEs lend credbility to all the atheists that convert. it's also been objectively studied that christian NDEs happen at a much greater rate than non christian themed NDEs... such that jesus is a common component of these experiences. nonchristian themes are very rare, and hard to quantify or qualify, and open to interpretation, and might be unreliable. 

there's all the philosophical arguments for God, such as the design argument and the causality argument. these are best kept at the level of philosophy but dont get much beyond just corroborating the God theory. 

in fact, all these points could be said to be just consistent with God, and if you wanted to split hairs, not evidence. a skeptic on this site made that point once, is this more about evidence or just 'consistent with the God theory but not evidence'. but with the miracle and NDE point, it's majorly lacking in common sense to stay atheist.

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some other points. there are credible medical doctors who are exorcists who say they have seen supernatural phenomenon. there are credible doctors who study young children who remember past lives, and say that the children couldn't know the details they explain. i think there are professors out of the university of virginia for example who study this. 

#2
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"there are credible medical doctors who are exorcists"

I dont trust doctors, because they practice sodomy in form of prostate exam.
#3
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Its better to die than to get prostate exam.
#4
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i use two unconventional proofs for god. one is healing miracles, i dont see the kinds of miracles that happen to theists happen to atheists, or even non christians honestly, despite looking for that evidence and asking around
Source: trust me bro
#5
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Why did healing evangelist John Mellor die of cancer? Or Leon Fontaine the pastor of one of Canadas largest churches?
These pastors often preached about Gods healing power, and walking in Gods favor that no evil thing will touch you as a child of God…. Yet they both died of cancer at fairly young age.
#6
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Remember that anti-vaccine Televangelist Marcus Lamb died from Covid.
#7
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@FLRW
Well, Goddo needed these guys up in heaven, so he martyred them here on Earth.

For they were sinners.

Or some BS like that.
#8
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@FLRW
Why did healing evangelist John Mellor die of cancer? Or Leon Fontaine the pastor of one of Canadas largest churches?
God having the power to heal doesn't mean he will. I don't think op is saying every Christian that asks for a miracle gets one only that Christians are the only ones getting miracles
#9
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@n8nrgim
If you follow the pattern closely, any evidence of god is purely subjective. 

No one can ever prove god to another.
The said individual has to have the encounter.
#10
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@FLRW
"Why did healing evangelist John Mellor die of cancer? Or Leon Fontaine the pastor of one of Canadas largest churches?"

Apparently cancer is deadly. Also from the natural side, nobody is immortal. Even the scriptures teach life is like a vapor or mist if I'm not mistaken. It's here and it's gone.
#11
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A miracle is a person living for 5000 years, not a person tripping and not hurting himself.
#12
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@n8nrgim
I had an interesting experience in the previous month. I am not sure whether I would call it a miracle. But it certainly was far more than a coincidence. I would mark it down as a God moment. 

Our church has a church bell. We are a reasonably old building in Australia. Our church turns 175 in 2025.  That puts our local congregation's age as comparable to the Gold Rush in Victoria. 

In about November last year, some of the kids in our church decided to launch themselves on the rope that pulls the bell. Yes, one of the old types, not the new push-button ones.  And anyway, they pulled so hard, the bell swung over the top of where it's supposed to go and has been stuck upside down. It hasn't been used since. We had tried lots of different ways to fix it. And it was stuck to hard.  

The building is quite high and to get to the bell tower, requires we hire a cherry picker or something like that. The local Board of Management has been a bit slack wanting to fix it - because of the cost that hiring this lift is not cheap. Several thousand dollars.  We had hired one a couple of years earlier to get rid of a Bee Hive that had moved in over Covid lockdowns.  

Anyway, we had a local couple want to get married.  And they wanted the Bell to ring to commence the wedding. I encouraged the Board to cough up and hire the cherry picker - which they agreed to do. The problem was - it wouldn't be quick enough to fix the bell before the wedding. 

So here is the interesting thing. As we were closing the Board meeting, one of the local girls, prayed. And she asked God, to provide a miracle, to fix the bell, before the wedding. And I recall chuckling to myself. But I added at the end, that it's a good thing to ask God for such things. 

Anyway, the VERY NEXT DAY,  Victoria and NSW suffered an enormous storm. Winds came through very high. And strong. Thousands of people lost power. My son's best man's old man died in a tractor accident - a tree fell on him - in Gippsland. Lots of tragic things happened - but the wind - blew our church bell back into place. 

My wife and I were putting our son to bed about 7:30 in the evening, and the storm had stopped for several hours. Suddenly in the quiet there were two dongs as the Bell swung back into place. She said to me, has someone fixed the bell. I said, I wish. And I grabbed my keys and ran up to the church. There was no one around. 

And I doubt anyone would have been foolish enough to get up on the roof in the wind.  But there it was back in place.  

Is that a miracle? It certainly was an answer to prayer. Did God send that storm just for us? I doubt it. Was it just a coincidence? Nope. It was God saying, "I like to please my people when I can". 

Mock me if you will, but this was a precious thing. Yes, it's a little thing. It's not the same as God going down to the hospital and making people well. It's not the same as providing peace relief in Gaza. But it is something that encourages the hearts of God's people when they hear it. 
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#13
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Besides the academic work on reincarnation at the university of Virginia, here is a book with documented examples of people verifying details of past lives.

As usual, skeptics can't attack this stuff on the merits, so they resort to denying it and contortions into illogical arguments 
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@Tradesecret
I think u said that u r the type that believes miracles have ceased for humanity? That u use the verse where st paul describes love and how everything will cease except for love. Is this still your view? U seem open to the idea of miracles
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@n8nrgim
My view is that miracles continue to happen.  If I have said or implied otherwise, then I stand to be corrected. 

I do hold to the view that "Special Revelation" has ceased.   Warfield, the great Presbyterian theologian, along with others, like John MacArthur the Baptist Dispensationalist, ties miracles to revelation.  I don't. 

I call myself a Cessationist. But this is specifically in relation to "special revelation".   

I believe God uses both general and special revelation. Some refer to this as the "two books" idea.  General Revelation in my view refers to the Creation about us. It may refer to events or circumstances that happen. Or to wise words that people say in the course of a discussion or even a book. 

Special Revelation is in my view the words which are written down for us. The Bible. Hence, I think the Bible is a closed cannon now. God is not still speaking to us with special revelation.   Yet, sending a storm to move a bell would fall within general revelation. It doesn't tell us anything new. It reminds us - however that God is watching and wants to encourage us. It may remind us that God loves us.  It doesn't tell us more than that.  It is not a special revelation telling us - that we are doing the right thing. Or that we are too miserly with our money. Or that we are under judgment. 

I hope that helps. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:8 states that special revelation will cease. Prophecy, Words of wisdom, and tongues. I would say that all of these things are special revelation.  
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Tradsecret wrote @n8nrgim
So here is the interesting thing. As we were closing the Board meeting, one of the local girls, prayed. And she asked God, to provide a miracle, to fix the bell, before the wedding. And I recall chuckling to myself. But I added at the end, that it's a good thing to ask God for such things. #12

🤣FFS!  

No mention of world peace? Or feeding the starving? Housing the homeless? Dads operation to be successful? 😂


Tradsecret wrote @n8nrgim.  My son's best man's old man died in a tractor accident - a tree fell on him #12

FFS! Not even a request for a raising from the dead?😂


Tradsecret wrote @n8nrgim. It was God saying, "I like to please my people when I can". #12


  "when I can".  FFS! Mr Omni himself, doubting his own abilities!😂


Tradsecret wrote @n8nrgim.  Mock me if you will.#12

 Sounds  like someone praying for victimhood?😒
#17
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@n8nrgim

Tradsecret wrote @n8nrgim
So here is the interesting thing. As we were closing the Board meeting, one of the local girls, prayed. And she asked God, to provide a miracle, to fix the bell, before the wedding. And I recall chuckling to myself. But I added at the end, that it's a good thing to ask God for such things. #12

🤣FFS!  

No mention of world peace? Or feeding the starving? Housing the homeless? Dads operation to be successful? 😂




December 14 2019.
Church attempts resurrection of a dead two year old child, through Prayer
“We have a precedent” said Pastor Bill, “Jesus raised the dead”.
He said “there was no time limit on how much longer the prayers and singing would continue, but added that the child remained at the county coroner's office”.

Interesting that Jesus also commanded any one that followed him to:
“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give”. Matthew 10:7-8 .
They appear to have done everything by the book too:

“'Since that night, and at the continued request of the Heiligenthal family, Bethel Church has hosted prayer and worship gatherings which consist of singing and prayer,' the church said in a statement”.

Interesting it is that the bible informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.
The baby’s funeral was eventually held December22.
What happened here ? “Ye of little faith” or the wrong faith?

It appears that the only thing “raised” during this whole sad sorry saga was $62,000 (“unforeseen expenses” don’t you know) via a GoFundMe page. I can hear Pastor Bill sermonising Acts 2:45 as I write.

It isn't hard at all to find  hundreds of cases where every single devout religious grieving parent was denied what they asked for in their payers.

#18
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@Stephen
LOL! @ the obvious pain you are feeling. But like the other obvious lies you want to paint - and obfuscation, let me at least quote what I did say because of the liars like you: 

"Mock me if you will, but this was a precious thing. Yes, it's a little thing. It's not the same as God going down to the hospital and making people well. It's not the same as providing peace relief in Gaza. But it is something that encourages the hearts of God's people when they hear it. "



#19
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@IlDiavolo
Read this D. I suggest you hold your ribs whilst doing so.

The Revered just can't keep away from me even though he blocked me "permanently" .🤣

See HERE> #17 & HERE> #18 above.


"Mock me if you will" -  he says, He fkn needs mocking for all the bullshite he expects anyone here to swallow.
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#20
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There's often people who come back from the dead.... they're dead or hours or days, as far as we know anyway, and still come back despite that it's inexplicable. Often there r stories of those in a morgue waking up. Or someone under water for half an hour. Granted it's very rare for a Christian to pray and bring someone back or at least the stories that we know of, and the stories r usually nde related... but it's not unheard of for extended dead to come back to life
#21
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@n8nrgim
There's often people who come back from the dead.... they're dead or hours or days, as far as we know anyway, and still come back despite that it's inexplicable. Often there r stories of those in a morgue waking up. Or someone under water for half an hour. Granted it's very rare for a Christian to pray and bring someone back or at least the stories that we know of, and the stories r usually nde related... but it's not unheard of for extended dead to come back to life

And you have good reliable sources for those claims do you, n8nrgim?

Someone I don't doubt may be considered or assumed "dead"  but they simply couldn't have been  if they regain consciousness.
 Dead means no longer alive.

Maybe we should leave the praying to those who just love that sound of their own voice and pray for the simple things in life such as:

Dear god, in the name of your Lord son Jesus please fix the church bells so my brother and his bride can have a lovely memorable day. Or just send us a free cherry picker so we can fix  ourselves. You did it for this couple, Lord>>>  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10756-evidence-god-christianity-miracles-ndes-the-afterlife?page=1&post_number=12


#22
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@n8nrgim
Besides the academic work on reincarnation at the university of Virginia, here is a book with documented examples of people verifying details of past lives.
Do you believe in reincarnation? 

I remind you that reincarnation is not a Christian teaching (eventhough early Christians believed in it). And the belief in live after death is not Christian either because as far as I remember Jesus said we all stay in a dream state after death.

I still remember the bullshit some Christians used to throw me about death people manifesting, they used to say that these "ghosts" are actually deamons trying to trick people. It was fucking hillarious to hear those lunatics.
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#23
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@IlDiavolo
i think belief in reincarnation is growing among christians. the catholic church taught against it, and there's that bible verse that says something like 'we're appointed to die once, and then the judgment'. so that's why christians dont believe in it. i think it's being too literalistic, and i think considering it's so common with NDE type of people, and that there's good science behind it... it only makes sense to be open to the idea 
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@n8nrgim
Well, at least you're realizing that the biblical content is not reliable AT ALL because the scientific research you're mentioning is at odds over it.

And I encourage you to keep questioning its content, this is the only way you can reach THE TRUTH.
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@IlDiavolo
Well, at least you're realizing that the biblical content is not reliable AT ALL because the scientific research you're mentioning is at odds over it.

And I encourage you to keep questioning its content, this is the only way you can reach THE TRUTH.

Spot on. 10/10

#26
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@n8nrgim
We are undoubtedly recycled components based upon re-appropriated data.

As such, we certainly retain subconscious memory.

Can we extrapolate, conscious memory from subconscious memory?

Maybe.
#27
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@n8nrgim
i think belief in reincarnation is growing among christians. the catholic church taught against it, and there's that bible verse that says something like 'we're appointed to die once, and then the judgment'. so that's why christians dont believe in it. i think it's being too literalistic, and i think considering it's so common with NDE type of people, and that there's good science behind it... it only makes sense to be open to the idea 
 I think the story of the Transfiguration proves that the Bible is not into reincarnation. 

John the Baptist is sometimes touted as evidence for reincarnation. Apparently, he is Elijah come back a second time. Or reincarnated. In the last couple of verses of the OT, there is a prophecy that before the Messiah arrives Elijah will come and restore all things. 

And yet, Elijah according to the OT never died. And the next time he was seen was after John the Baptist was killed.  And the Disciples recognised Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.  They hadn't recognised John the Baptist as Elijah until Jesus indicated in Matthew 17:11-13 that he was. 

This at least implies that John the Baptist was a distinct personality and so was Elijah. After all, why didn't Elijah turn up in his new body if he was reincarnated? 

And why is it that the Disciples recognised him as Elijah and not John the Baptist? It is simple. I think.  John was like Elijah in character. The prophecy wasn't meant to be interpreted literally.  John always remained John and will always remain John. And Elijah will always remain Elijah. They are two very different characters and people. Yet they share a similar character. Both called a spade a spade and called out adultery against their kings.  Both call the people to repentance. 

But Elijah never died. But John the Baptist did. 

For reincarnation to be true, in the bible, Elijah would not revert back to his old body after he had clearly uplifted to John's body. And where is Nirvana in all of this? 

No it simply doesn't stack up if reincarnation is even remotely a thing. 


#28
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@FLRW
Living for 5000 years is longevity.

If said person was hit by lightning once a year and survived 4999 times, now that would be a tad miraculous.

Swimming with Crocodiles  was just a tad too blase'.
#29
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@zedvictor4

The dumbest student a professor ever had graduating from college is a miracle. You know I'm talking about Trump, don't you?
#30
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@FLRW
Trump.

Certainly some peoples New Messiah.