what do you think of sidewalker's take?
[Sidewalker] Quantum Physics, the Copenhagen interpretation, the particle actually comes into being physically when it is observed.
That's not everything in the Copenhagen interpretation but it is correct if you substitute "it is observed" with "wave collapse/interaction occurs"
[Sidewalker] Because of the dual nature of reality at the quantum level
Mysticism
[Sidewalker] particles can be “completely” represented mathematically by a “wave function”, this is a central tenet of quantum physics.
Yes, keeping in mind you're talking about the properties (essence) that manifest on wave collapse in discreet quanta, remember he just said there are no particles in the wave only on collapse.
[Sidewalker] In quantum theory, a particle exists in a juxtaposition of possible states; only when it is measured does it take on definite qualities, like position and momentum.
The part of the Copenhagen interpretation that confuses people and contradicts itself. "We" just said there is no particle except at the instant of collapse. That is correct. This is not.
[Sidewalker] These are not waves of some underlying stuff
Whatever this is supposed to mean precisely it's probably wrong. The waves involved all satisfy Schrodinger's equation but many were identified long before as waves of force-fields, the most commonly studied (and relevant for most science) are electromagnetic waves.
[Sidewalker] they are mathematical waves of probability
They are both.
[Sidewalker] a field of pure possibility that goes unrealized until it is “collapsed” by an observer, theoretically then, the act of observing seems to conjure the particle into existence out of a mathematical haze of probability.
That's what the first statement said, but the unwarranted flowery and misleading language is continuing to snowball.
"observation" can be done by a single atom. That's not what people think intuitively when you say "observation". Again (I'm really a broken record) "interaction" is a better word.
I say "manifest", he says "conjure". Whatever makes you happy.
"out of a mathematical haze of probability"
Math describes nature, nature isn't math. This stretches poetic license.
[Sidewalker] The “bigger implication” is not that “our consciousness can affect reality”, it is consciousness actually brings about reality, the particle can be “actualized,” or made “real” by the observation that collapses the wave function, which gives it spatial and temporal existence.
We've now crossed over fully into mysticism with no admixture of scientific theory supported by evidence.
[Sidewalker] The mind-boggling implication is that the objective world cannot even be said to exist outside of the subjective act of observation.
<monty python peasant voice>Now you see what I've been on about, did you see him try to deny objective reality?</monty python peasant voice>
[Sidewalker] This enforces the age-old hypothesis that consciousness is fundamental aspect of physical reality after all, perhaps the only ultimate reality.
It does not. If consciousness creates reality there is no way we can support that conclusion by the fact that physical quanta manifest during quantum wave collapse whether we know about the collapse or not.
It's a thing that happens. End of story. This the makes exactly as much sense as saying "Since color only exists when I see it we know consciousness is a fundamental aspect of physical reality after all"
[Sidewalker]As Neils Bohr, John Wheeler, Henry Stapp, and many other quantum physicists believed, perhaps consciousness cannot be considered just a by-product of the physical activity of the brain.
Many people believe that. No one who understands quantum mechanics thinks quantum mechanics supports this thesis.
[Sidewalker]In the end, we have some scientists trying to reduce matter to consciousness, and others trying to reduce consciousness to matter, we seem to be caught in one big loop.
I would suggest trying to actually understand it by looking at the math and experiments as opposed to watching pseudoscience docuseries.
[Sidewalker]I always enjoy seeing our spiritual detractors throw a conniption
I hope Sidewalker is entertained by my conniption. I am less amused by this subversion of the scientific method (and the respect it has earned) to serve anti-rationalism.
[Sidewalker] if you do think consciousness is fundamental to the existence of physical reality, this raises the possibility that some sort of consciousness was necessary to make the universe actual in the first place, a preexistent consciousness that transcends the material universe of science.
Well Sidewalker has hit the nail on the head here. Reason is so much easier to leave behind when you have a belief that you've already decided to have faith in.
=================================================
[n8nrgim] doesn't it require actual measurement to affect quantum phenomenon? im not seeing where just observation is sufficient.
Interaction. Measurement also implies someone is watching. A photon can interact with a single atom. Atoms have no mind. They don't observe. They don't measure.
