What is personhood?

Author: Benjamin

Posts

Total: 46
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
Some people define personhood to mean simply being a member of our species. But that renders the word redundant, because it would simply be a synonym for human.

I personally believe that personhood is an emergent property, not an inherent one. That it is the agregate of many important mental functions. Things like abstract intelligence, self-awarenes and capacity for moral considerations. When these psychological qualities mature, personhood emerges. Because these mental qualities exist on a spectrum, so does personhood. You cannot draw a line in the sand where on one side you have no personhood but on the other side you have full pershood. But we have at least 2 usefull benchmarks. Before you develop a brain, you have no mental functions and thus have no personhood. When you are a fully developed healthy adult, you are definitely a person. 


This view may raise alarms in the minds of those that only apply moral reasoning to those with personhood. However, I don't believe that moral value is binary. Just because something is not a person does not automatically mean that it has no moral value. A dog is not a person, but it still has moral value. Similarly, even if a human is brain damaged to the point where they are mentally on par with a dog, that does not mean that they have no moral value, nor that they should be denied their human rights. Moral value scales with personhood for sure, but also with the ability to feel pain and the desire for self preservation, just to name a few. 
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@Savant
Here are my honest thoughts about the concept of personhood. You can ask any questions or challenges you may have. Or you can present your own thoughts first.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,605
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Some people define personhood to mean simply being a member of our species. But that renders the word redundant, because it would simply be a synonym for human.
Here is my view.

Personhood means greatest legal rights and protection by society, and also different treatment by law.

It is assumed that humans have personhood, while non-humans dont.

Thats why non-humans have less rights.

Thats why when law says "person", it talks about humans.

Now, if personhood should be extended to non-humans is a good question, to which we dont know the exact answer.

Cow being a "person" legally means that cow goes to prison if it commits a crime, that it has to go to school, that it cannot be killed for meat, and many other things which come with being a person.

AI being a person would work slightly better than cow, but there are many issues there too.

AI would basically have right to vote and reproduce, which means that eventually it could outnumber humans and take all legal power.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Benjamin
How do you know a dog has moral value?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Best.Korea
Then there are people on this planet that actually aren't persons or people.

Interesting according to this .
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,669
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
How do you know a dog has moral value?
I know my dog does, Baxter is a better person than I am.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Sidewalker
It's like, a head covering attached to certain items of person clothing.

Like  doggyhood is a covering attached to a doggy jacket.

Similarly Kangaroo's.

Or Rhinoceros's.

Or Sperm Whales.


Is this helpful?
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Benjamin
I personally believe that personhood is an emergent property, not an inherent one. That it is the agregate of many important mental functions. Things like abstract intelligence, self awareness and capacity for moral considerations. When these psychological qualities mature, personhood emerges.
I would take issue with predicating moral value on emergent properties, as oppose to an absolute metric. If you take moral agency to be contingent on  psychological qualities, you would be committed to saying that the absence of such qualities  entails the absence of moral worth. 

Furthermore, a continuum based perspective on personhood would yield "more" and "less" humans. Given that "intelligence, self awareness and capacity for moral consideration" all exist on a spectrum, it would follow that those who exhibit these characteristics more forcefully would be, under your analysis, more of a human than their peers. 

Also, I'm sure you've heard of the uncertainty principle - it would seem that your idea of personhood would be damaged by it. 
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Sidewalker
What does the dog do right that you do wrong ?
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mall
Otherwise, personhood is the state of being an existent person...Any person.

No psychoanalytical BS required.

And dogs cannot do anything wrong because they are not programmed to.

Whereas persons often behave counterintuitively...Which to be fair, is the nature of the beast.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@zedvictor4
So there is nothing wrong about a dog killing a defenseless person. Is that your position?
DavidAZZ
DavidAZZ's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 303
0
2
5
DavidAZZ's avatar
DavidAZZ
0
2
5
-->
@zedvictor4
@Mall
And dogs cannot do anything wrong because they are not programmed to.
Mall, I would agree with Zed on this one.  Animals do not have morals or consciousness.  They are trained to be aggressive or brutal.  That is why we sue the owner of that dog and not the dog itself.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mall
Not what I said.

The dog, relative to it's instinctive programming and behaviour would not be doing anything wrong.

Whereas the persons involved in the scenario would be.

Because as DavidAZZ points out, humans make conscious assessments and decisions within a legal ethical and social framework. Which includes conceptual distinctions between right and wrong.

(Which isn't to say that human behaviour isn't underpinned by a certain amount of basic instinct.)



And just out of interest, a question for you.

Why makes a person defenceless and a dog not?


One might suggest...The nature of the beasts.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@zedvictor4
Just a straight answer.
Is there or is there not something wrong with a dog killing a defenseless person?
Just one or the other.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@DavidAZZ
Is there or is there not something wrong with a dog killing a defenseless person?
DavidAZZ
DavidAZZ's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 303
0
2
5
DavidAZZ's avatar
DavidAZZ
0
2
5
-->
@Mall
Is there or is there not something wrong with a dog killing a defenseless person?
Wrong, yes, but to say the dog was immoral for the actions is not the case.  Animals are property, not persons.

So to go with Jewish law, kill the dog (since it is a danger to society) and fine the owner.

Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@DavidAZZ
I can understand that the dog won't view itself as doing something wrong but you still find wrongness with the dog.

Someone saying an animal non person is moral or more so completely has no merit to us.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mall
I've clearly stated NO.

And also provided an explanation.

In a nutshell, dogs do not conceptualise and therefore make distinctions between right and wrong.


And you seemingly ignored my question.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,161
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Benjamin
I think OP is about as concise as you can get. Maybe that means we need better concepts here.


ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,161
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
What does the dog do right that you [Sidewinder] do wrong ?
The dog doesn't go on the internet and lie.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,161
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
@Mall
@DavidAZZ
[zedvictor4] And dogs cannot do anything wrong because they are not programmed to.

Whereas persons often behave counterintuitively...Which to be fair, is the nature of the beast.

And dogs cannot do anything wrong because they are not programmed to.
[DavidAZZ] Mall, I would agree with Zed on this one.  Animals do not have morals or consciousness.  They are trained to be aggressive or brutal.  That is why we sue the owner of that dog and not the dog itself.
You're both completely wrong.

You might be able to say they don't have morals because morals require a conscious awareness of one's own values, but they certainly have values and emotional reactions to those values being attained or threatened.

Personality, individual character, is the opposite of programming and the higher animals show plenty.

The capability to train a dog or a dolphin or a raven proves nothing. We know humans can be trained, rather easily when you control every aspect of their life as it happens. "we" sue the dog's owner, but "we" also used to sue the owner of a slave.

Now just because society was wrong once doesn't mean it is wrong again, but you have to admit that society has a capacity for self-delusion about person-hood and it sounds exactly like that. A baseless ascription of all behavior to training and breed.

They learn, and no two think exactly alike even with almost identical nurture. That sounds more like humans than a machine. We know what machine-like animals look like, every arthropod; every fish I've ever heard of, probably true of amphibians too.


[Mall] Is there or is there not something wrong with a dog killing a defenseless person?
Yes there is something wrong with it.

We value life, but not always. They value life, but not always.

There are three ways a human can be bad:
1.) He can lack our values or refuse to abstract them. You can't prove he's bad to him, but he's bad to 'us'.
2.) He can share our values, but through lack of self-discipline or mental clarity act against those values.
3.) He can share our values, and understand what priorities and sub-values they imply, but he can make an honest mistake.

It is tradition to not condemn (3) too harshly. It is very likely that a dog who does something evil is in category (3) but that doesn't mean evil is not a problem. It's also possible for a dog to be (1). I believe in dog sociopaths and I think many of them function just fine (like human sociopaths) because they want the food to keep coming.

There are people (people who I bet never got to know a dog) who think all animals are (1). That we project humanity on to them and it's all an act designed to increase treat output. They're clueless.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
One can train a dog to behave in a particular way. Though it's behaviour will always be compared with human behaviour, by humans.

The dog will not make such comparisons. It will simply respond appropriately, according to circumstance.

What I am saying is, the concepts of right and wrong do not exist in a dog's brain.

So if a dog kills a person because of the circumstances in which it finds itself, then it has done nothing wrong. The onus of responsibility for the dogs actions will fall upon humans.

Though in such circumstances the dog usually ends up as the fall guy.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
So even dogs see wrongness in killing a defenseless person you're saying.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
In terms of what they're capable of doing, what does the dog do right that you do wrong?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@zedvictor4
I'm sorry I didn't see the word "no" in your original response, ok.

Why makes a person defenceless and a dog not?

When a dog is equipped with protection,  that dog is not defenseless. The opposite is true for a person.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,161
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
One can train a dog to behave in a particular way.
As one can train a human to behave in a particular way.


Though it's behaviour will always be compared with human behaviour, by humans.
And a human's behavior will be compared with dog behavior, by dogs... and cats, and horses etc.. etc...


The dog will not make such comparisons.
He or she certainly will. If you whine like a dog, the dog will react as they would to another dog. If you slowly blink your eyes at a cat, the cat will react as if you are another cat.

All theory of other minds starts with oneself and it's no different for them. What's amazing is that the theory can evolve so we can understand those quite different from ourselves. They can't do that quite as well as us, but they can do it. Smiling in humans means happy, but to most predators baring teeth means aggression. Even our close cousins like chimps and gorillas don't take it well.

Dogs, cats, horses, and certainly the other great apes (with time) can learn what the expression really means.


It will simply respond appropriately, according to circumstance.
You're taking the immensely complex set of factors which produce behavior, you're smushing it into a black box, and then you're calling that "appropriate".

He will respond in accordance to his nature, nurture, and character. Which also perfectly describes how a human will respond.

His experiences tell him what to fear and love and what does or does not work. That combines with character traits like boldness, extroversion, neuroticism, etc... and this is all undergird by a foundation of instincts (many of them common to many species due to their ancient nature).

Some dogs are reliable brave and aggressive, and respond to threats with aggression almost always. Some are frozen in fear and indecision over something like walking over ice. They can overcome learned fears and acquire new ones. They can learn to tolerate things they once hated and learn to hate things they once loved.


So if a dog kills a person because of the circumstances in which it finds itself, then it has done nothing wrong.
I agree he may not realize he has done something wrong, but if there is any sense in these moral terms they have to mean something. A dog has values, and if he kills someone he considered part of his pack in a panic over a misconception then that is wrong by the standard of his values whether he realizes it or not. His emotions will follow his values and he will mourn, and if regret means emotional pain that changes behavior he may very well regret.


The onus of responsibility for the dogs actions will fall upon humans.
If a human child urinates on someone's lunch would the responsibility not fall on the parents?

There is a difference between "doing nothing wrong" and "not knowing you've done wrong".

Dogs, young children, and grown-ass-men (if they're indoctrinated) may honestly believe they've done nothing wrong. If you blame someone other than them, you're asserting a duty for someone to teach and regulate them.

I don't have to say anything about when teaching, regulating, and displaced responsibility are appropriate to tell you there is a difference between a stone falling on an innocent person and a dog killing an innocent person. A dog may be a thousand times less capable of perceiving a moral principle than a man but he has values. A stone has no values. You can't trust a stone, predicting interactions with a stone (or an ant or a tree) has nothing to do with a theory of another mind.

You can trust a dog, and it's not because a dog is three-laws safe. If a dog was a machine it wouldn't be trust.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,161
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
So even dogs see wrongness in killing a defenseless person you're saying.
I'm saying their value system grows as they learn, sometimes into a tangled mess and sometimes into a semblance of coherent order. If you imagine instincts as the soil then the values are like the tips of the plants that grow out of the soil.

The difference between the value system of a human and the value system of a dog is in how far removed from the soil the final values can be and how recursively they can be generated.

A human can choose values based on other values and keep doing that until they've convoluted themselves into something bizarre, like say believing that cutting out the heart of one of their own tribe and eating it is a good thing because crops need to grow and the sun won't rise if you don't do that.

With that potential a human can also write a declaration of human rights (which we all know would apply to cognizant aliens).


I'm saying that because a dog has some capacity for abstraction his value system has some capacity for diversity and his perceptions of reality also have significant capacity to vary. Which is to say: You can't make blanket predictions about how a dog will behave.

A dog can see the wrongness in killing a defenseless person, but there is no guarantee. You can train a dog to not attack defenseless people but that's different than a dog seeing value in people's lives. A sociopathic dog (insofar as that has any meaning) can be convinced by pain and reward to behave a certain way, but it absolutely not the case that you need to train a dog to not attack defenseless people or they will kill defenseless people.

No dog I have ever know has had to be taught to not kill people. Yes, not biting is something that needs to be discouraged; but even dogs that bite are almost never trying to kill. It's just a completely unacceptable way to communicate.

A wolf that is raised by wolves would probably think nothing of killing a defenseless human. They kill prey all the time. A wolf that is raised among humans would have to be provoked or frightened to kill a human. That's a learned value system. The instinctual foundation has a slot for peers and prey and because canines have some abstraction ability non-canines can occupy the peer slot in the "vegetation" of secondary values.


In terms of what they're capable of doing, what does the dog do right that you do wrong?
Oh I was just making a cheap joke. I don't think dogs are more moral than humans. As I said above they have less capacity to delude themselves but that comes at a cost of not seeing moral principles which often leads them to do the wrong thing (something against their own values) without realizing it.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,803
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
A dog can see wrongness but there is not one thing they do right that you do wrong, is that so?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,161
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
A dog can see wrongness but there is not one thing they do right that you do wrong, is that so?
A dog can see wrongness if the connection between the value and the action that threatens it is within their ability to conceptualize.

There is nothing they can be guaranteed to do right or wrong and there is nothing that humans can be guaranteed to do right or wrong.

Keep in mind where there is no choice there is no morality. Morality refers to choices. If there is no option to do right or wrong then it's not a moral question. Like breathing. It is incoherent to say dogs and humans are both morally excellent because they will both always try to breathe.

A particular dog can do something right where I, in similar circumstances, did something wrong. It is not and cannot be a "they are always better", it can be a "they are generally better"

and no, I can't think of any category of moral decision where dogs are generally morally superior in a significant way.

There are a category of "animal people" who really get off on prattling about how great non-humans are compared to our demonic ape selves. It is in my opinion BS. A nicer species than us, you'll never find. If we have a tendency to obsess over our own evil it's because we love the good so much. If we do great evil it's because our big brains give us enormous power. I have no doubt that the instinctual foundation of other species would allow for similar atrocity.
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,164
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
"What is personhood?" I'm gonna go with some made up wokedy woke BS