Is logic arbitrary according to Christians?

Author: Best.Korea

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Now, I have already covered why morality is most likely arbitrary.
Thats because any moral standard is ultimately a product of choice, or a product of desire, or a product of will. Since any moral standard can be rejected and different one can be accepted instead, it follows that morality is something equal to wish. Any moral reason is ultimately an arbitrary reason that can be rejected or accepted at will of anyone. Arbitrary reason is not, as one might think, the actual cause. The will is the actual cause for accepting or rejecting a standard. Thus, standard is always a choice.

But some Christians have stated that God created logic, and that God can do illogical things.
Wouldnt this make logic itself an arbitrary product of God's will?

Logic, by itself, has these self-evident rules:

Non-contradiction: Something cannot both be and not be at the same time, cannot be true and false at the same time.
This rule is mainly about the impossibility of both existing and not existing at the same time.
If one were to completely deny this rule, he would have no way of forming any logical thinking. Plus, he would have no way to demonstrate his thinking, as we have never observed anywhere something both existing and not existing at the same time.
In fact, its not even possible to imagine. Even our imagination cannot imagine something that both exists and doesnt at the same time. Its simply impossible to imagine.

So when people claim that God can do illogical things, is that a mere assumption?

If we have these two claims:
1. Object A exists somewhere
Or 
2. It is false that object A exists somewhere

How is it possible for both claims to be true? The second one being true means that first one isnt.

Yet in an illogical world of God, they can apparently both be true.

Of course, some thinkers have claimed that both can be true at different times. However, the time of claim one is included as time of claim two, since claim one itself is included in claim two.
So, by logic, two contradicting claims must mean that one is false.

Another law of logic is excluded middle.
This means that claim can be either true or false, but not both and not neither.
Illogical world of God would defy this logic, but how?
How can something neither exist nor not exist?

Even law of identity, which states that X is always equal to X, would be defied.

These logical laws form our universe, but if God created them, that would make logic itself arbitrary.
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@Best.Korea

Iowa's Christian conservatives follow their faith when voting, and some say it leads them to Trump. So much for logic.
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@FLRW
Trump has more sins than satan, but in Christianity, as long as you say that you believe in Jesus, you can sin as much as you want.

If you do only good deeds, but you dont believe in Jesus, you go to hell to burn.

So yeah, in Christianity, logic doesnt apply.

Christians were faced with famous moral question:

If person only does good deeds but doesnt believe in Christ, will that person go to hell?

If no, then one does not need to be Christian to avoid hell.

If yes, then Christian God is a madman.
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In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. (John 1:1)

Logos is where we get the word logic

God did not create logic. God IS logic. Logic is a reflection of how He thinks. God is Truth and truth excludes contradictions. God is eternal therefore God is eternally logical. 

I suggest you look into St. Augustines argument from abstract concepts (numbers, shapes, math, etc all eternally reflects the Mind of God)
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@Morphinekid77
In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. (John 1:1)
Ah I see. You are adding words to the Bible that arent in the Bible.

God did not create logic.
Some Christians claim he did, so I guess now you have to fight over which version of Christianity is correct one.

God IS logic. Logic is a reflection of how He thinks. God is Truth and truth excludes contradictions. God is eternal therefore God is eternally logical.
Now, now, no need to throw so many circular assumptions around.

I suggest you look into St. Augustines argument from abstract concepts 
I will, as soon as you present it.
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@Best.Korea
At about the age of 17, Augustine began a relationship with a young woman in Carthage. Though his mother wanted him to marry a person of his class, the woman remained his lover. He was warned by his mother to avoid fornication (sex outside marriage), but Augustine persisted in the relationship for over fifteen years, and the woman gave birth to his son Adeodatus (372–388), which means "Gift from God", who was viewed as extremely intelligent by his contemporaries. In 385, Augustine ended his relationship with his lover in order to prepare to marry a teenaged heiress. By the time he was able to marry her, however, he had decided to become a Christian priest and the marriage did not happen.
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@Best.Korea
Ah I see. You are adding words to the Bible that arent in the Bible.
Um, you are aware that the Greek word for "Word" is λόγος which is Logos right?

I wasn't adding words to the Bible, I was translating it back to it's original language.

Some Christians claim he did, so I guess now you have to fight over which version of Christianity is correct one.
Yes and if we follow what those (mistaken) Christians are saying, it leads to the absurdities you're mentioning. Hence God did not create logic. And not to mention the Logos is clearly uncreated in the Johannine text. As the chapter goes on to say (verses 3-4)


I will, as soon as you present it.
I already did. It's quite simple. How can an eternal Mind be void of knowledge of logic, numbers, math etc? Therefore those abstract things were always present in His Mind. Therefore they were not created.
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@FLRW
St. Augustine was quite the ladies man before his conversion. He admits this in explicit detail in his Confessions. What exactly is your point?
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@Morphinekid77

If you have sex outside of marriage, you can get a Gift from God.
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@Morphinekid77
Um, you are aware that the Greek word for "Word" is λόγος which is Logos right?
No, I dont speak ancient Greek.

I guess Christians failed in translation then.

It was really supposed to say "in the beginning, there was logic", which would imply that logic had a beginning. Awkward!

So Christian God cannot do illogical things? Thats really an even worse position to defend, as explained by the other topic I posted where I assumed Christian God is unable to do illogical things.
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@FLRW
Sounds like Augustine was a bad boy.
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@Best.Korea
I guess Christians failed in translation then.
Maybe... OR, here's a crazy concept. Words can have multiple translations.

It was really supposed to say "in the beginning, there was logic", which would imply that logic had a beginning. Awkward!
My point wasn't that it SHOULD be translated logic. The proper translation is word. My point was that it also means logic and if you break down the etymology of logic we get the Koine Logos.

The "beginning" is not a reference to logic, in context, it's a reference to all things that came into being. The Logos, being God, is clearly distinguished as something that did not come into being. I suggest reading the whole chapter honestly.


Sounds like Augustine was a bad boy.
Yes and look what he became. One of the greatest minds in Christian history.



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@Best.Korea
So Christian God cannot do illogical things? Thats really an even worse position to defend, as explained by the other topic I posted where I assumed Christian God is unable to do illogical things.
Define illogical
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@Morphinekid77
Words can have multiple translations.
True, but I would prefer if you guys could agree on one translation. "word" is not equal to "logic" in English.

So it either means logic either it doesnt. You cant exactly have both.
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@Morphinekid77
The "beginning" is not a reference to logic, in context, it's a reference to all things that came into being.
Thats a good explanation, but then you would also have to assume that there are things that dont have beginning.

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@Morphinekid77
Define illogical
You know that there are 4 basic laws of logic.

1. Non-contradiction (X cannot both be and not be)

2. Identity (X is equal to X)

3. Excluded middle (either X or not X)

4. Everything has a cause ( X needs a cause)

Christian God violates all 4 of them.
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@Best.Korea
True, but I would prefer if you guys could agree on one translation. "word" is not equal to "logic" in English.

So it either means logic either it doesnt. You cant exactly have both.
You can't expect people writing in Koine Greek, a language completely alien and unlike our own, to cater to the whims of  people 2000 years in the future, speaking a language they didn't even know would exist, nor would they care existed.

Logos means word, it means reason, it means logic. It other words, it means all things that are true, orderly, truthfully spoken and reasonable, sensible, etc. It absolutely can and does mean both. 

Thats a good explanation, but then you would also have to assume that there are things that dont have beginning.

God and His Logos don't have a beginning. 

Christian God violates all 4 of them.
When? The better question to be asking is WHY are these laws the way they are? Why can't they be broken? A material universe without an eternal Mind cannot justify the existence of the laws. My view can however. 
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. Everything has a cause ( X needs a cause)
This is NOT a law of logic and is patently false!
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@Morphinekid77
The better question to be asking is WHY are these laws the way they are? Why can't they be broken?
Because they are what logic is and breaking them would make your God illogical?

This is NOT a law of logic and is patently false!
So you believe things dont need a cause in order to exist? 

I wonder why doesnt orange donkey appear in my house without a cause?
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@Morphinekid77
A material universe without an eternal Mind cannot justify the existence of the laws. 
You said that they werent created, so there is nothing to justify.
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@Best.Korea
Because they are what logic is and breaking them would make your God illogical?
In other words "they are what they are because they are". That's not a very good explanation. 

So you believe things dont need a cause in order to exist? 

I wonder why doesnt orange donkey appear in my house without a cause?
Yes. Some things can exist without a cause. Necessary entities exist without causes. An orange donkey is not a necessary entity, as the explanation for their existence is found outside of themselves. Therefore donkeys of any color cannot appear without explanation, therefore they are contingent entities. 

You said that they werent created, so there is nothing to justify.
In my worldview there is nothing to justify. In a world without an immaterial transcendent Mind there certainly is. So, according to you, where do the laws of logic come from and why are they universal?
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@Morphinekid77
In other words "they are what they are because they are". That's not a very good explanation. 
Well, you used same explanation for God. But unlike God, laws of logic are demonstrated literally everywhere. Kinda like math.

Some things can exist without a cause. Necessary entities exist without causes.
So those are two assumptions.

An orange donkey is not a necessary entity, as the explanation for their existence is found outside of themselves.
Maybe you misunderstood.
Why doesnt a magical orange donkey appear in my room without any cause?
Why cant magical orange donkey be a neccessary entity?
There is no explanation for magical orange donkey, and by your logic, things that have no explanation must exist, so therefore magical orange donkey must appear in my house now.

Therefore donkeys of any color cannot appear without explanation, therefore they are contingent entities
Again, why cant a magical orange donkey appear without explanation?

Your entire argument is an assumption that necessary entities dont require explanation, so why cant a magical orange donkey appear without explanation?
Why cant a magical orange donkey be a necessary entity?
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@Morphinekid77
So, according to you, where do the laws of logic come from and why are they universal?
They come from nothing.

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@Morphinekid77


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Morphinekid77,

YOUR TRUTHFUL QUOTE ABOUT OUR SERIAL KILLER GOD NAMED JESUS, PRAISE!:  "God did not create logic. God IS logic. Logic is a reflection of how He thinks. God is Truth and truth excludes contradictions. God is eternal therefore God is eternally logical."

Praise your recognition of our brutal serial killerJesus like you have done in your revealing quote above!  Yes, our Jesus God is LOGICAL when He proffered the following godly inspired passages, agreed?!

1.When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.” (Exodus 21:7)

2.And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.’ (Jeremiah 19:9)

3.  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou BEATEST him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt BEAT HIM with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs.23:13-14)

4. JESUS AS GOD SAID: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4)

5. JESUS STATED: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)


 In the same context as Jesus being LOGICAL in HIs inspired passages above, it seemingly was logical for your Catholic Priests to bum fuck little innocent boys because they are always forgiven of this dastardly sin? YES?   .....  “For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)


Morphinekid77, have you ever followed the passages above in the name of Jesus?

.
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@Morphinekid77
A material universe without an eternal Mind cannot justify the existence of the laws. My view can however. 
No view can. Justification is shorthand for "rational justification", which by definition means "in accordance with logic". In other words, you have to presuppose logic in order to justify anything, and if your position is not ultimately based within the laws of logic then it is by definition not justified.
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@Morphinekid77
Morphinekid77,  Wrote:  "God did not create logic. God IS logic. Logic is a reflection of how He thinks. God is Truth and truth excludes contradictions. God is eternal therefore God is eternally logical."

Brother D. Thomas wrote @ Morphinekid77,

Praise your recognition of our brutal serial killerJesus like you have done in your revealing quote above!  Yes, our Jesus God is LOGICAL when He proffered the following godly inspired passages, agreed?!

1. “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.” (Exodus 21:7)

2. “And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.’ (Jeremiah 19:9)

3.  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou BEATEST him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt BEAT HIM with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs.23:13-14)

4. JESUS AS GOD SAID: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4)

5. JESUS STATED: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

 In the same context as Jesus being LOGICAL in HIs inspired passages above, it seemingly was logical for your Catholic Priests to bum fuck little innocent boys because they are always forgiven of this dastardly sin? YES?   .....  “For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)


Morphinekid77, have you ever followed the passages above in the name of Jesus?

And all "logical"  according to Morphinekid77.  It would be interesting to hear how Morphinekid77 explain the "logic" behind those verses Brother D.


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@Stephen
@Morphinekid77


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Stephen,

YOUR "LOGICAL QUOTE" RELATIVE TO MORPHINEKID77 IN EXPLAINING MY POST #24 WHERE JESUS AS GOD IS LOGICAL IN SAID PASSAGE: "And all "logical"  according to Morphinekid77.  It would be interesting to hear how Morphinekid77 explain the "logic" behind those verses Brother D."

Hopefully Morphinekid77 will respond showing Jesus as God being ALL ETERNALLY LOGICAL like he said He was, therefore the said passages that I have provided in said post are logical to Jesus!  Oh, let us not forget that Jesus is all loving and forgiving to His creation as well.  ( Acts 10:43, Romans 5:8)

The membership will see if Morphinekid77 will address my post #24 or not, and if he doesn't, then he is just another Bible runaway and will join the ranks of Miss Tradesecret, YouFound_Lxam, n8nrgim, and the like that clog up this forum where it cannot grow religiously!

.
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@Double_R
other words, you have to presuppose logic in order to justify anything, and if your position is not ultimately based within the laws of logic then it is by definition not justified.
Again I agree but my presupposition of the laws of logic and yours are different. A materialist must simply presuppose them without any explanation for how a material universe can have immaterial transcendent laws.

In my worldview however I can have immaterial transcendent laws because they're grounded in an immaterial transcendent Mind.

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@Best.Korea
You must be having a very boring week. 

God is logical. Jesus is the logic of God. In the beginning was the Word - the greek word, logic.  John 1:1.

God doesn't do illogical things. He is entirely logical.  He doesn't do absurd things. 

Provide some examples. Please?