-->
@FLRW
Oh, sorry I thought this topic was about Trump.
Or about GreyParrot. Isn't it? Lol.
The Political, Social, and Religious Ideology of Hitler
Posts
Total:
44
-->
@FLRW
TDS is strong
-->
@sadolite
Well, Trump did keep a copy of Mein Kampf on his nightstand.
7 days later
-->
@Critical-Tim
I am just going to repost what I posted in a debate about Hitler's motivations.
The Earth has a finite amount of resources. There is only so much oil, food, trees and many more valuable things to go around. A man named Thomas Malthus in the late 18th century observed that the human population could increase and an exponential rate (ex. 2,4,8,16,32) while food production increases at a more linear rate (ex. 1,2,3,4,5). [1]
What happens when population exceeds our abilities to create enough resources are what Malthus refers to as positive checks. These checks include (war over resources, famine, or disease due to things like more condensed and close together population (ie. Covid19). The other option Malthus brought up was preventative checks such as encouraging later marriages, making abortions easy to access and promoting and encouraging homosexuality.
Hitler seemed to be applying Malthusianism to his policies for Germany. in Mein Kompf Hitler states;
"The annual increase of population in Germany amounts to almost 900,000
souls. The difficulties of providing for this army of new citizens must
grow from year to year and must finally lead to a catastrophe, unless
ways and means are found which will forestall the danger of misery and
hunger." [2]
As you can see, Hitler was very concerned about the Malthusian dilemma. according to an article by Bryan Caplan writing for [econlib.org](http://econlib.org) [3] Hitler went on to weigh all of the options Malthus presents and then states;
"Of course people will not voluntarily make that accommodation. At this
point the right of self-preservation comes into effect. And when
attempts to settle the difficulty in an amicable way are rejected the
clenched hand must take by force that which was refused to the open hand
of friendship. If in the past our ancestors had based their political
decisions on similar pacifist nonsense as our present generation does,
we should not possess more than one-third of the national territory that
we possess to-day and probably there would be no German nation to worry
about its future in Europe." [2]
I assume that con will of course agree with Hitler about the right to self preservation, so I won't digress into that. As we can see from Malthus and Hitler, Germany was headed for disaster and their right to a good life would soon be taken from them, if Hitler was not going to be proactive.
**Lebensraum**
Hitler had a plan to deal with this Malthusian disaster, swiftly heading towards Germany. An overall plan to preserve his German people that involved taking preventative measures as Malthus had suggested. Hitler would go on to reduce the world population by 60 million people and push back a global Malthusian disaster. [4] A population that could easily double every 25 years. That would be 3 doublings by now and an additional 180 million current people. Despite how much Hitler helped the globe, his main mission was to do right by the German people he led. Seriously about 800 million people are currently starving to death. If not for Hitler it would most likely be 1 billion people. [5]
Lebensraum (meaning living space) was an answer to the Malthusian problem of population growth exceeding resource growth. It was a philosophy of conquering other parts of Europe so that way Germans could live more spread out with more resources to sustain their population. There is something else to consider about Lebensraum before we move forward, but first a better definition of lebensraum from chat GPT that is lightly edited by me to remove it's anti Nazi bias.
"The Nazi philosophy of Lebensraum, which means "living space" in German, was a belief held by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party that emphasized the expansion of German territory by acquiring more land in Eastern Europe. The Nazis believed that the Germanic people, needed more living space to grow and flourish, and that acquiring land in Eastern Europe was necessary for their expansionist goals." [1]
continued...
**Freedom Fighter**
Hitler wasn't just some boring conservative politician who only cared about the economic success of his country. He also was deeply concerned about freedom, but even if he wasn't than expansionist Lebensraum policies, were still good at obtaining those freedoms. It's a well known fact that can be observed in any country and in any period of history. people that live in the country care more about autonomy than those in urban areas whose neighbors actions can be more easily felt on a day by day basis. By expanding the living space of the German people so they weren't crowded in big cities, Hitler could also, whether deliberatively or not expand freedom in Germany.
**Doing What's Right**
My opponent will not be be able to deny the truth of Malthusianism. It is obviously true that the Earths resources are limited. It is obviously true that any poor mother with 8 children, knows it will be less of a struggle to feed all of her kids if she had 3 less of them. We all know that the Malthusian trap has already significantly contributed to global warming, covid 19, and famines.
Germany wasn't the only nation to realize this. Western nations know that in order to maintain a wealthy nation, they have to take the resources from poor countries and reallocate them to their own wealthy countries. IMF loans are used to get a strangle hold of nations to force policies that increase exports, effectively stealing the resources of people who can barely feed themselves. In the book titled "Stories of an Economic Hitman", the writer who worked to steal resources from small nations explained how the CIA would work covertly to overthrow governments so the United States could put a person in charge who would work to export resources. The west may no longer have slavery, but we export labor to countries where we can exploit the poor and the resources of poor nations for a paycheck of $2 a week.
Hitler realized that the Malthusian trap was a real thing, so he had to either start slaughtering his own people, exploit the poor from other countries or create more living space for Germans to be able to live with plenty of resources. It takes at minimum 2 acres of land per person to feed them {6]. The higher your population the more land you need, especially when you consider other resources like breathable air, lumber, copper and oil.
As you already know from history, Hitler decided to create some Lebensraum for his people, which he had an obligation to do. Remember as per the definition provided for this debate, we are debating whether the action taken or no action is preferable. The impending Malthusian trap was all the reason Germany needed to begin it's expansionism. Other countries were aware of this Malthusian trap and it is why at the time, Great Britain had colonized so many nations they effectively ruled over 30% of the globe. [7]
The cold hard truth is that Western nations have a choice between exploiting developing nations, so they starve or sacrificing our quality of living. Your shoes would be expensive without Nike exploiting children for pennies a day, You wouldn't be able to give your wife a diamond ring without the suffering and exploitation of miners and their homelands in Africa. Hell we would be spending half of our paycheck on gas, if not for the fact that our governments from time to time take over and exploit oil producing countries like Iraq.
It isn't pretty, but the alternative is we all live in squalor and suffering numerous Malthusian traps. Well, the other options include things like fighting for women's rights in the middle east because an educated working female population reproduces less or having sex-ed programs that encourage abstinence but also teach kids how to use protection, giving people access to abortions and promoting homosexuality through Budlight's marketing team etc... .
**The black death**
Population reduction and expansion basically achieve the same thing. more available living space per person. The west or "Global North" as referred to by dirty commies, have answered the Malthusian trap by exploiting the land and resources of poor people in third world countries. Germany chose another method, a similar method to what America chose when they employed the philosophy of "Manifest Destiny". Germany wanted to answer the Malthusian dilemma by expanding into the lesser used portions of Western Europe. It's not Hitler's fault that colonial countries like France and England wanted to have a monopoly on the ability to prevent a Malthusian trap and actively worked to destroy Germany, even after Germany begged for peace just prior to and after the expansion into the portion Poland, where a lot of their own people resided. [8]
The reason I bring up population reduction when talking about the expansionist policy of Germany, is because we have a real life example of the success having more land to exploit (as opposed to people) has created for a nation, particularly the lower classes of a nation. The working man, basically. The black plague shows what can happen when a society suddenly escapes the Malthusian trap and gets more Lebensraum.
The black plague killed an estimated 50% of people.[9] Here is a bit of what one publication says about the prosperity of people following the black death ;[10]
"the rural worker indeed demanded and received higher payments in cash (nominal wages) in the plague’s aftermath. Wages in England rose from twelve to twenty—eight percent from the 1340s to the 1350s and twenty to forty percent from the 1340s to the 1360s. Immediate hikes were sometimes more drastic. During the plague year (1348—49) at Fornham All Saints (Suffolk), the lord paid the pre—plague rate of 3d. per acre for more half of the hired reaping but the rest cost 5d., an increase of 67 percent. The reaper, moreover, enjoyed more and larger tips in cash and perquisites in kind to supplement the wage. At Cuxham (Oxfordshire), a plowman making 2s. weekly before the plague demanded 3s. in 1349 and 10s. in 1350"
**Conclusion**
I appreciate the judges reading this far. I have argued that nations should be primarily interested in the self preservation of their own people and not in a way that trades prosperity for a few more years of life, but one that primarily concerns itself with the quality of the lives of it's own citizens. I have shown that with Germany's increasing population, lebensraum was needed for the success of the German people and as we can see from the initial stages of Hitler's rise to power, the nation was an economic powerhouse. So the plan worked and historical examples such as the black plague's economic effects, means that there was good reason to believe that the lebensraum plan would work. The alternative of doing something, was doing nothing and allowing the great powers to continue exploiting Germany through the unfair Versailles treaty, while the German people suffered having to burn their massively inflated money to keep warm., and to quite literally starve. Hurt people, hurt people.
sources
1. Chat GPT
2. Mein Kampf (Adolph Hitler) ch. 4
8. Random post I remember reading on stormfront about Hitler requesting peace in several letters
-->
@FLRW
'My New Order', which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed.
-->
@WyIted
"Lebensraum," a term deeply rooted in the historical and philosophical discourse, translates directly from German as "living space." Originally used in the context of biology and human geography, it referred to the habitat or territory required by an organism or a population to thrive. The concept encapsulates the idea that populations grow and, as a result, require more space to continue their development and maintain their existence.
However, the term gained infamy and a specific political connotation in the early 20th century, particularly through its adoption by Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler. In this context, Lebensraum became a key ideological element underpinning the regime's policies and expansionist aims. It was used to justify the territorial expansion of Germany, under the pretext that the German people needed more space to live, grow, and prosper. This justification was employed to legitimize the annexation of territories and the displacement or extermination of their inhabitants, based on a belief in the racial superiority of the Aryan race and the perceived necessity for its growth.
Thus, while "Lebensraum" can be understood in a neutral, ecological sense, its historical usage imbues it with a much darker significance, reflecting ideologies of expansionism, racial discrimination, and the justification of aggression under the guise of natural and national necessity.
In summary, "Lebensraum" refers to the concept of living space necessary for populations to thrive, but is historically notorious for its appropriation by Nazi ideology to justify territorial expansion and associated atrocities, marking it as a term laden with implications of aggression and racial discrimination.
- ChatGPT4
Conviction is the enemy of understanding. - Myself
Conviction is the enemy of understanding. - Myself
15 days later
-->
@FLRW
Well, Trump did keep a copy of Mein Kampf on his nightstand.
That’s one child I wouldn’t mind the IDF bombing.
-->
@FLRW
Well, Trump did keep a copy of Mein Kampf on his nightstand.
You mean Trump can read?
I know you love to worship your favorite scoundrel, but this is taking it way too far, Mencken.
Of course Trump can't read.
-->
@FLRW
Wasn't the source of his ownership a disgruntled ex? Additionally, when a topic is too emotional for someone to read, they will never understand and will always be baffled by the topic. Part of my reasoning for being here at debate art is because I want to engage in enlightening debates and understand the most about the world and put my emotions in check while not disregarding them but understanding them and allowing myself to comprehend the world with the least skewed view possible. I have read the book, and before having done so I couldn't understand why Hitler did such things based on everything I was told about him. This is because no one could provide me accurate information because their emotions were too disturbed to comprehend. I recommend that people challenge themselves to face things that they normally couldn't and regardless of what it is try to accept it from the perspective of another until you can understand why it was done and then decide whether this new perspective is more accurate or not than your original and even if you discover that it is nothing more than a subjective skew, at least you can now say I understand. This is my ultimate goal.
-->
@Critical-Tim
Wasn't the source of his ownership a disgruntled ex?
Yes, the one he pushed down the stairs.
Trump's and Hitler's statements are not quite the same, and there is obvious, significant context that separates these sets of quotes.
However, it is true that phrases and statements used by Trump, like "vermin," "poisoning the blood," and "threat from within," bear a remarkable similarity to some quotations and writings attributed to Hitler.
However, it is true that phrases and statements used by Trump, like "vermin," "poisoning the blood," and "threat from within," bear a remarkable similarity to some quotations and writings attributed to Hitler.
-->
@FLRW
Regardless of if its true, I don't think ownership of the book, or reading it, is necessarily bad.