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@ebuc
Again just deflection. Me saying I don't know is a more accurate description of how the universe began than you could ever give.
The Big Bang Didn't Need God to Start Universe
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@FLRW
Our universe could have popped into existence 13.7 billion years ago without any divine help whatsoever, researchers say.
clearly
god is the proper name of the big bang event
the big bang is god
containing all energy
containing all information
it qualifies as omnipotent
and omniscient
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@3RU7AL
@FLRW
Occupied space something is not born from truly non-occupied space.
"Researchers" needs to be clarified with researches that are not using logical, common sense critical thinking, based on scientific observation.
No human knows what existed at time of the Big Bang { Fred Hoyle terminology }. Fred Hoyle wrote the book The Intelligent Universe
..." The junkyard tornado, sometimes known as Hoyle's fallacy, is an argument against abiogenesis, using a calculation of its probability based on false assumptions, as comparable to "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein" and to compare the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a solar system full of blind men solving Rubik's Cubes simultaneously.[1][2][3][4] It was used originally by English astronomer Fred Hoyle (1915–2001) in his book The Intelligent Universe, where he tried to apply statistics to evolution and the origin of life.[1] Similar reasoning were advanced in Darwin's time,[2] and indeed as long ago as Cicero in classical antiquity.[5]
...While Hoyle himself was an atheist, the argument has since become a mainstay in the rejection of evolution by religious groups. "...
The solution to the above ' junkyard tornado ', is that that Universe code of integrity eternally exists i.e. there exists a finite set of eternally physical laws and cosmic principles.
Ex, there can never exist more than five regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedra of Universe. Simple.
No amount of hand waving, or parralle universes, or multiple universes, or bubble universes can ever alter this cosmic principle.
A malicious/mischievous person is allowed to make intentional false claims, or non-intentional false claims.
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@ebuc
No amount of hand waving, or parralle universes, or multiple universes, or bubble universes can ever alter this cosmic principle.
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@3RU7AL
3RU, please elaborate the points of the link in regards to inviolate cosmic principles and physical laws.
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@ebuc
3RU, please elaborate the points of the link in regards to inviolate cosmic principles and physical laws.
any and all things can emerge from astronomically large numbers of permutations
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@3RU7AL
...any and all things can emerge from astronomically large numbers of permutations...
Lets clarify a bit 3RU.
..' any and all things ' that are possible i.e. finite limits exist. I think you want to imply/infer that no such finite limits exist and another way of stating such, is that, ..' anything is possible '. and that is just illogical, lack of common and lack of critical thinking, that, is often based on scientific observations.
Your provided link has not, nor every will define a 6th, regular/symmetrical, and convex polyhedron.
If you truly believe, that inviolate finites do no exist, ---aka ' anything is possible '...-- then please state so clearly.
Over the years I hear this young people make such a comment. Young people tend to more ignorant than older people with more experience and knowledge base.
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@ebuc
do you agree OR do you disagree with the junkyard tornado argument as it is presented ?
do you agree OR do you disagree with the junkyard tornado argument as it is presented
1} and I repeat as you refuse to address directly my comment in post #67,.....
........Your provided link has not, nor every will define a 6th, regular/symmetrical, and convex polyhedron, ergo , there exist finite limits of Meta-space concepts that, can also exist as a local occupied space Universe, or occupied space Universe......
2} I recently provided link to Fred Hoyles Intelligent Universe, where he may have coined the phrase.... ' junkyard tornado, assembling an orderly 747 jumbo jet from disorderly Universe '... or something along those lines of thought. I also posted in that post that Fred hoyle was an atheist so not into the an intelligent creator God that created Universe.
....2a} first an foremost, you and I have agreed in the past there there is no free will because we live in cause > effect > resultant {?} Universe, ergo,
Universe has created a 747 Jumbo Jet via nature of humans access to Meta-space mind/intellect/concepts.
The problem with Freds tornado concept is it does not allow for eternally existent Universe, that with a tornado on the ground, lasts at most an two or so hours, whereas, we have no idea of how long it has taken Universe to arrive at humans with access to Meta-space mind, since the lastest set of Big Bang circumstances, or later, or before the big bang, in an eternally existing Universe, wherein, humans and jumbo jets may eternally re-occur in Universe.
Occupied space Universe { some-thing } does is not born from truly non-occupied space { no-thing }. See 1st law of thermodynamics, that, transpose as ebucs cosmic law that, occupied space cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed.
Many of these cosmic issue probelems arise because people are trapped in the pre-conditioned educational bias. And the same goes for many local issues. Many humans do not have the time or take the time to practice logical, common sense critical thinking process'es.
168 days later
How many planets are there really in the universe?
Erik Zackrisson, an astrophysicist at Uppsala University in Sweden, crunched the numbers on a computer model that simulated the evolution of the universe since the Big Bang.
He found that — given our current understanding of the universe and the laws of physics — there should be 7 times 1020 planets in the universe. That’s 7 followed by 20 zeroes or 70 quintillion.
Erik Zackrisson, an astrophysicist at Uppsala University in Sweden, crunched the numbers on a computer model that simulated the evolution of the universe since the Big Bang.
He found that — given our current understanding of the universe and the laws of physics — there should be 7 times 1020 planets in the universe. That’s 7 followed by 20 zeroes or 70 quintillion.
That is the number needed for Human life to evolve on one planet. It is time to rethink how life started.
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@FLRW
How many of those planets would be suitably positioned to be able to develop and sustain organic matter.
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@zedvictor4
One. This shows that there was a Designer (or designers).
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@FLRW
How many planets are there really in the universe?Erik Zackrisson, an astrophysicist at Uppsala University in Sweden, crunched the numbers on a computer model that simulated the evolution of the universe since the Big Bang.He found that — given our current understanding of the universe and the laws of physics — there should be 7 times 1020 planets in the universe. That’s 7 followed by 20 zeroes or 70 quintillion.That is the number needed for Human life to evolve on one planet. It is time to rethink how life started.
Why do you think intelligent life only evolved on one of those planets?
So far, we have sampled 1 out of 7 times 10to the 20th power planets outside of our solar system, and to date we have found intelligent life on 100% of planets sampled.
How did you derive a total of one from that, please show us your math?
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@Sidewalker
Only DNA reproduces DNA. Two well known scientists calculated the odds of life forming by natural processes. They estimated that there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 40,000power that life could have originated by random trials. 10 to the 40,000power is a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it! The Earth is the only planet in the Universe with Human life on it. There my be some planets with bugs on them, and no, I don't mean republicans.
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@FLRW
Which shows that it all boils down to magic.
That is...Self generating magic.
Not something with a wand.
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@zedvictor4
@FLRW
Which shows that it all boils down to magic.
Naught is created nor destroyed, only transformed, is a mystery, that has a complementary set of Meta-space logic, common sense critical thinking for some.
Fine Structure Constant { fine tuning coupling mystery } = 0.00 72 97 35 25 62 78 71 35 75 15 76 12 44 25 34
FLRW......here my be some planets with bugs on them, and no, I don't mean republicans.
Life exists elsewhere in Universe and not just on Earth is my belief also. Most people really have no idea how big current size of Universe is, and that size is difficult to grasp, even in relative terms, and there may be some basis for ideas of that size being even much larger. I dunno.
DNA > RNA > proteins, tho I seem to recall some who belief RNA was the precursor to RNA. I dunno
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@FLRW
Only DNA reproduces DNA.
Current scientific theory places a vast amount of disparate data into a conceptual framework that presents a dynamic process that clearly demonstrates a developmental sequence from radiation to simple atoms to more and more complex atoms, then molecules gradually becoming more and more complex, until the emergence of self-replicating molecules, becoming prokaryotic cells, which merged together to become eukaryotic cells, becoming single celled creature that formed colonies that became multicellular creatures, that unified into single sentient entities at some point. What followed was a progressive development, life started out simple and over time became more complex. There is no doubt that a direction can be seen to the development of life over time and it has been in the direction of greater complexity, greater versatility in its ability to adapt, and consequently in the direction towards increased awareness, progressive degrees of sentience, and greater intelligence, culminating in Man, from which developed social organization, language, culture and civilizations with our sciences, philosophies, and faiths.
Rather than a statistical impossibility, all of this observed progressive enrichment presents itself scientifically as a natural progression that resulted from the interplay of the laws of physics and the characteristics of matter. It isn't magic.
Two well known scientists calculated the odds of life forming by natural processes. They estimated that there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 40,000power that life could have originated by random trials. 10 to the 40,000power is a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it! The Earth is the only planet in the Universe with Human life on it. There my be some planets with bugs on them, and no, I don't mean republicans.
Do you realize how big these numbers really are? Let’s take a look at how these numbers grow exponentially.
The ink in a single period on a piece of paper contains approximately a billion billion atoms (around 10^18 atoms). In the visible universe there are an estimated 2 trillion galaxies with a total of 10 ^ 24 stars. It’s estimated that the number of atoms in that entire visible universe is 10 ^ 80. These are phenomenally large numbers, and 10 ^ 40,000 is just an absurd and meaningless magnitude.
Mathematically, there is no meaningful difference between infinity and 10 ^ 40,000, they are both just incomprehensible, and any scientist who claims he has a valid calculation that yields a probability of 1 in 10 ^ 40,000 for anything is just spouting nonsense.
Did you find these "Two well-known scientists” at the “Institute for Creation Research” perhaps?
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@FLRW
..."
..."Tardigrades can survive instantaneous pressure up to about 10,000 atmospheres, which an impact at .8 km/s can create. This news follows tests by a pair of UK astrobiologists using a gas gun. Tardigrades also tolerate even higher static pressure, hard vacuum, complete dessication, ionising radiation, temperature extremes and weightlessness, at various life stages, apparently without time limit. Surely they could manage to arrive safely on lots of planets.
"Tardigrade Survival Limits in High-Speed Impacts – Implications for Panspermia and Collection of Samples from Plumes Emitted by Ice Worlds", by Alejandra Traspas and Mark J. Burchell, doi:10.1089/ast.2020.2405, Astrobiology, 11 May 2021.
"Tardigrade Survival Limits in High-Speed Impacts – Implications for Panspermia and Collection of Samples from Plumes Emitted by Ice Worlds", by Alejandra Traspas and Mark J. Burchell, doi:10.1089/ast.2020.2405, Astrobiology, 11 May 2021.
Tardigrades survive impacts of up to 825 meters per second by Bob Yirka, Phys.org, 21 May 2021.
Thanks, Peter S. Thompson. And Google Alerts:
Are Water Bears Extraterrestrial? by Emma Sours et al., The Ohio State University, 21 Feb 2021.
What Makes Tiny Tardigrades Nearly Radiation Proof by Carl Zimmer, The New York Times, 12 Apr 2024.
"the theory that microbes in space transmit life to habitable bodies" is the definition of panspermia that I have always accepted. Am I negligent to ignore the possible role of larger specimens? In addition to tardigrades, many plant seeds can tolerate extremes. French botanist David Tepfer has long advocated panspermia by plant seeds.
"The origin of life, panspermia and a proposal to seed the Universe", by David Tepfer, Plant Science, Dec 2008. "...
Cosmic Ancestry with Brigs Klyce
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@zedvictor4
Magical Stress response of Epigentics ---Lamarkian evoluion-- See also Bruce lipton
I saw program on tv of a group of people on East keep themselves hungry all the time, because during biologic stress in circustances of starvation, the body releases molecular agents that do amazing things to keep biology alive.
..." Prions are agents of analog, protein conformation-based inheritance that can confer beneficial phenotypes to cells, especially under stress. Combined with genetic variation, prion-mediated inheritance can be channeled into prion-independent genomic inheritance.
...Latest screening shows that prions are common, at least in fungi.
....Thus, there is non-negligible flow of information from proteins to the genome in modern cells, in a direct violation of the Central Dogma of molecular biology.
.......The prion-mediated heredity that violates the Central Dogma appears to be a specific, most radical manifestation of the widespread assimilation of protein (epigenetic) variation into genetic variation. The epigenetic variation precedes and facilitates genetic adaptation through a general ‘look-ahead effect’ of phenotypic mutations. This direction of the information flow is likely to be one of the important routes of environment-genome interaction and could substantially contribute to the evolution of complex adaptive traits. "...
HIV reverses Central Dogman
...." To do this, the virus uses its reverse transcriptase enzyme to reverse transcribe the RNA into DNA. This step is said to go against the central dogma of biology and is why HIV is classified as a “retrovirus.” Reverse transcriptase inhibitors act to block the virus from converting its RNA genome into DNA."...
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@ebuc
Interesting data.
Currently we only know that life exists on Planet Earth.
And for sure, the Universe is vast.
But our knowledge is limited thus.
So we can only speculate, based upon probability.
But it's nice to think that something else somewhere else, is also having nice thoughts.
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@zedvictor4
Interesting data
Here is Kahn vid that is easy flow chart of 5 or so differrent ways central dogma is not always so central. Watson, Crick and the overlooked Rosalind Franklin also played significant role
So we can only speculate, based upon probability.
However there is speculation can be based on various considerations ex presumed known facts and or/ logical, common sense critical thinking pathways of thought.
Since we have no direct evidence of an origin of biologic life, we can also presume ---or speculate-- that biologic life has existed eternally within a eternally existent, and finite, occupied space Universe, that, in some fashion, or another, eternally contains the coding for biological life.
.." the four nucleotide bases of DNA (Adenine - A, Cytosine - C, Guanine - G, and Thymine - T) "..... with Uracil RNA replacing Thymine
Three sequences are called Codons and 6 or 12 on telemores end of chromsome believed to associated with aging----
My numerical belief system sort of like the following:
3 = Structural integrity ...see how all homes are structural stabilized by triangulation aka diagonal in a square [ / ]----
4 = Systemic integrity ... see above four bases of life and square is less stable { allows for transformation } enclosure of area than the more minimal triangle pattern---
5 = alternate Systemic integrity --see above alternate base Uracil, see tetrahedron{ is on dual }, cube/octahedron duals, icosahedron/penta-gonal dodecahedro dualsn---
4 = Systemic integrity ... see above four bases of life and square is less stable { allows for transformation } enclosure of area than the more minimal triangle pattern---
5 = alternate Systemic integrity --see above alternate base Uracil, see tetrahedron{ is on dual }, cube/octahedron duals, icosahedron/penta-gonal dodecahedro dualsn---
6 = Universal pattern ---four of these define the Vector Equlibrium of 8 surface triangles { less transformable } and 6 surface squares { more transformable }
220 days later
We also didn't need God to start the Big Bang Club.
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@Shila
Wink, wink.
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@FLRW
Repeated Big Bangs is not in question. At least certainly not with eternally existent Universe.
Those initiaing moments for a new phase of eternally existent Universe. The Big Bang, occur from already existing Universe, in another phase of existence. Entropic heat death. Understand that first. More below.
Ive presented various scenarios around here over the years.
1} early ones stem from Euclidean 4-fold Vector Equilibrium{ VE } --has a spherical version also-- and the associated primary 87 { - 14 congruent/redundant = 73 primaries } great circles,
...a spread out version of the above with many 4-fold VE and 5-fold icosa...
....1a} entropic heat death of 4-fold VE physical reality, --via contraction to flat, becomes ultra-large, ultra-flat { longest frequency } photon with 5-fold icosahedra remaining on each side if not overlapping the ultra-flat 4-fold VE. There is more to the story
See flatten VE here > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s04/figs/f6108.html
2} similar to above except the 2D great circles have become my primary 73, dual invaginated space and time horn tori via every particles of Universe
...Gravity is outer positive surface, and Dark Energy is inner negative surface. Physical reality inside/internal to the torus.
We do not see the Gravity or Dark Energy because they are not quantized as observed time. We only see discreet particles of reality that, are associated with sine-wave pattern ^v^v^
Scenario 1:
3} the space and time tori follow same idea as presented above for Euclidean or spherical VE and icosa at entropic heat death, --more time needed to get in to all the details once again.
...3a} the most recent scenario is about our pereceptions of expanding Universe are incorrect and what is happening is that reality { ^v^v^ }, ---inside each particle of Universe---, is synchronistically moving toward ---over zillions of years-- either outer Gr. or inner DE.
As the reality gets to the outer or inner surface, it is transported around to pop back in on the diametric opposite side. The normal for zillions of years.
Whats unormal is that sine-wave of reality accumulating --and flattening out ' entropic heat deat '-- inside each particle, so that when it gets too outer or inner, there is going be a massive influx of the sine-wave or reality, that travels around the surface and pops back in.
Dark Inflation occurs a short time as enough of the reality accumulates to inflate/expand and create enough energy to have all kinds of energetic transformations aka Big Bang. This story is a bit complex and I certainly dont have any abstract or geometric graphics to develop it much more.
In this latter cause Universe is not truly expanding or if is, not of significant amount, Rather it is pereceptions --even via our instruments-- that mislead us to thing the Universe is getting larger.
If we stop to think about using logical common sense critical thinking. Is the Universe like a rubber band that expands and contracts?
Entropic heat death is cooling off, not a getting hotter. Metal and other substances expand when getting hotter.
Again, my viewpoint is that, there is finite occupied space of Universe, and if Universe is truly expanding, what is filling the seemingly empty space that would be inside and expanding Universe.
If the VE as reality is contracting to become ultra-large and ultra-flat, it expands into a a seemingly flat area of a triangle or circle if we start with a spherical VE.
So no truly empty space is required to fill in space, as the finite VE { as reality } is just transformed from spherical/polyhedral to flatten area.
That still leaves ideas about the role of the 5-fold icosahedra. In my standard model,teh 5-old icosa is pattering for the bosonic forces of Universe and yes they are reality, yet in the top of this page scenario, the icosa outer i..e on each side tangent to over overlapping to the central ultra-flatten VE.
In my early scenarios, all that exists is encoded on the spherical surface of the icosahedra.
in later scenarios, I would now have these outer space and time tori. So for my early scenarios, it would take me more to develop a logical common sense critical thinking understanding of what occurs. Once that is done i could try to explain.
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@ebuc
Well stated.
Here is alternate option by just reversing which the sine-wave ^v^v^of reality is going toward. Here is from outer Gravity to inner Dark Energy.
When enough accumulates, we get the Dark Inflation period in early Big Bang. Again, this version is one of two ways this entropic heat death could move towards. I go back and forth as to which one is more logical.
..Outer Gravity Peak of Curvature.....................loops back to self on outer surface of torus --non-observed--
-......ObR......^v^v......**Dark Inflation period**..loops back to self inside torus
-......ObR.........5 Ml. yr.............^v^v............................loops back to self inside torus
-......ObR........10 Bl. yr.....................^v^v.......................loops back to self inside torus
-.....ObR..........20 Bl. Yr...............................^v^v.................loops back to self inside torus
-.......ObR.......100 Bl. Yr.............................................^v^v............loops back to self inside torus
-.......ObR.........200...Bl. Yr...................................................^v^v ......loops back to self inside torus
-......ObR.........800 Bl. Yr. ............................................................^v^v ...loops back to self inside torus
-Inner Dark Energy Peak of Curvature............loops back to self on inner surface of torus --non-observed--
...space...Outer >( (( )( )) )< Outer......space
...space.....( (( )< Inner >( )) )...space
..space.....( reality>((< reality. )( reality >))< reality )......space.. reality inside/internal to all space and time tori combinations as fermionic matter and bosonic forces.
Yes this takes some imagination, since im using texticonic charactors to reprsent the outer and inner circles as well as the circles planes of reality.
