what do skeptics think really happened with Jesus and his followers?

Author: n8nrgim

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#61
Double_R
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@n8nrgim
i realize it's healthy to be skeptic, but i choose to just go with it and accept orthodox teachings like the virgin birth, unless i have a good reason to doubt it.
Do you consider adherence to valid principals of logic to be a good reason?
#62
IlDiavolo
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@n8nrgim
are you saying there were reports  from ancient historians of magic from nonchristians? or is this a contemporary thing? you need to cite something or add better context for me to accept your proposition. 
The ancient times is full of magic not necessarily coming from christians. There is even a register of magic in the gospels, you migh have heard of Simon Magus, for example. But I guess for christians this comes from the devil. Lol.

christians perform miracles to this day. the catholic church requires that for a saint to be canonized, there has to be three miracles that are inexplicable. there's lots of examples outside of the catholic church too, in christianity. there's barely any or questionable examples outside of christianity. i know you contested that point once, but it was a non sensical response so i didn't respond to you. if you want me to show the flaw in your reasoning, go ahead and argue your points. 
I'm taking issue with your arguments because you are stuck in the bible when it comes to find an explanation for the miracles, even when the bible doesn't give good reasons for explaining the phenomena, which is fine because it's based on a primitive mindset. We are in the 21st century, we need to find out what the fuck this is all about and I am incapable of buying what the bible try to sell us.

are you insecure with yourself or something?
I'm being as objective as I can. I know what I am so I don't care about what you think. You're the one who got out of control which shows that you have no control of yourself. You're dominated by your ego eventhough you're supposed to be full of love and compassion.

Anyway, I guess I was taken in by your horrible written english. I apologize.
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#63
n8nrgim
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@IlDiavolo
maybe simon the magician was a fraud. i am open to the possibility of dark magic, but it's not covered in much detail in the bible and we dont see it in every day modern life. 

christians perform miracles to this day. the catholic church requires that for a saint to be canonized, there has to be three miracles that are inexplicable. there's lots of examples outside of the catholic church too, in christianity. there's barely any or questionable examples outside of christianity. i know you contested that point once, but it was a non sensical response so i didn't respond to you. if you want me to show the flaw in your reasoning, go ahead and argue your points. 
I'm taking issue with your arguments because you are stuck in the bible when it comes to find an explanation for the miracles, even when the bible doesn't give good reasons for explaining the phenomena, which is fine because it's based on a primitive mindset. We are in the 21st century, we need to find out what the fuck this is all about and I am incapable of buying what the bible try to sell us.
frankly this is a non sense answer. i'm making claims of things that look supernatural, happening in modern times. you then for some reason say i'm stuck in the bible and that we need modern principles to understand it. okay, the bible point is a non sequiter, i dont know why you are trying to paint my miracle argument with being stuck in the bible, as that's only loosely relevant. you should use modern science to refute what i say, but when it comes to that, in the past you always get into pseudo science or hearsay. i think it might help you to take a class in logic and reasoning. 

this is a debate website, so sorry if i'm not full of love and affection. i truly do have a softer side. you came at me sideways, so i tried to set straight your insults. 
#64
IlDiavolo
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@n8nrgim
frankly this is a non sense answer. i'm making claims of things that look supernatural, happening in modern times. you then for some reason say i'm stuck in the bible and that we need modern principles to understand it. okay, the bible point is a non sequiter, i dont know why you are trying to paint my miracle argument with being stuck in the bible, as that's only loosely relevant. you should use modern science to refute what i say, but when it comes to that, in the past you always get into pseudo science or hearsay. i think it might help you to take a class in logic and reasoning. 
Maybe you've already seen my arguments about the supernatural but I bet you didn't pay attention to it.


if you prefer to believe a "magic spirit" does it all, it's your choice, I have no right to make you believe otherwise. But I have to tell you, get stuck in the bible is not a clever move to find the truth, this is pure dogmatism.
#65
IlDiavolo
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@n8nrgim
this is a debate website, so sorry if i'm not full of love and affection. i truly do have a softer side. you came at me sideways, so i tried to set straight your insults. 
That's the problem of dogmatic people, they can behave like saints, but if they come across something that challenges his dogmatic view they can be extremely evil. This is why I fight against dogmatism, it's fucking harmful for this world.

Hope you're not that kind of person for the sake of this forum.
#66
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@n8nrgim
n8nrgim Wrote: areyou saying there were reports  from ancient historians of magicfrom nonchristians? #50


IlDiavolo wrote: Theancient times is full of magic not necessarily coming fromchristians. There is even a register of magic in the gospels, youmigh have heard of Simon Magus, for example. #62

n8nrgim Wrote: maybesimon the magician was a fraud. i am open to the possibility of darkmagic, but it's not covered in much detail in the bible and we dontsee it in every day modern life. #63


Simon Magus was a well respected Jewish holy man of the Samaritans and respected by other Jewish groups. The  Samaritans were an Israelite tribe that appeared to have a love hate relationship with other Jewish tribes. He too performed “miracles” . Many Jews respected him believing him to be or have “the great power of god”. But of course, those of the Jesus movement simply said he was a sorcerer / magician. Not to be unexpected,  with an imminent war looming you have to choose a side I suppose,. 

 It was the Samaritans that had rejected the offer to join the army of Jesus. One reason was simply because they believed/knew that Jesus only had his eye on the prize, to be “king of Jerusalem” and that he would soon forget them after the final battle was won. Another reason was that although Simon and the Samaritans fully understood that they didn’t have a cat I hell’s chance of beating the force of the mighty Roman Empire on their own, they wanted nothing do do with Jesus and his movement, because this Simon had his own ideas of who should be king. But as it turned out, just as the Jesus movement had failed with the death of their “messiah” the Samaritans too were decimated by the Romans anyway. Try reading Josephus and the Jewish Wars, FFS.

Also try reading the story of the good Samaritan. This was simply a story of Jesus trying to convince his own movement that not all Samaritans were bad and they were better united than divided.
After Simon/ Samaritans had rejected the offer to join the fight and didn’t want Jesus anywhere near them , Jesus’ disciples, that had been taught to “love thy enemy and your neighbour “ wanted to wipe them out!!! Luke9:51-56 .





IlDiavolo wrote: Jesus was not the only preacher and miracle performer at that time. I think there is a passage in the gospels where one of their followers tells Jesus about a guy that was doing similar things as him. Jesus, aka the christ, said it was ok.



n8nrgim Wrote: I think the passage in the gospels u r referring to is where a man was performing miracles in Jesus's name but wasn't following the apostles. Jesus said who ain't against him is for him and not to worry about the guy. My guess is you r mistaken .



I don't believe for a second that this is a mistake. This was Simon The Magus imo. I did a thread on this particular mysterious individual Titled;


Of course, you lot- theists- instantly started crying “CONTEXT”!

You may like to have a look at that thread and put it into "CONTEXT" for me, as when the same offer was put to my naysayers, they shut the fk up and ran away.

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#67
n8nrgim
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@IlDiavolo
you have a very weak argument. "the placebo effect helps heal people. therefore all inexplicable healing of incurable diseases, are based on placebo or the mind".  i saw two examples in your articles... someone's burn healing faster, someone's headache going away faster. those aren't considered incurable, only things healing faster than they otherwise would. what about what were thought to be incurable illnesses being cured? what about someone who has a damaged retina suddenly being able to see, or someone with Parkinson suddenly being disease free like we see with miracles of the saints? i will admit, it's possible these 'miracles' are only related to the brain, but you are making a really weak argument that that's the case. i should just uproot everything that has been established in the congregation for the causes of the saints and elsewhere over millennia, cause you posted some flimsy science on the placebo effect?