Voice Your Opinion Thread

Author: Vader

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#31
KingLaddy01
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@Vader
There are serious debates. Some people just don't have the time to make huge debates with school and stuff. I know I don't have the time
Key word being "school". The userbase is younger than DDO's was 5 years ago, hence, less serious debates.

#32
Raltar
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@Vader
Some people just don't have the time to make huge debates with school and stuff.
To be fair, I do understand that real life obligations take priority over an internet website. 

But again, this brings us back to the fact that this site is being treated as more of a life support machine for the last dying remnants of the DDO community, rather than its own independent project. 

Under any normal circumstance, if people don't have time to debate, they wouldn't be on a debate website in the first place. But this isn't really a debate website, and most of these people aren't really here to debate at all... which is why they have plenty of time to accrue thousands of forum posts.

Not to mention that a lack of time has not prevented people from creating an abundance of completely absurd debates... trees are better than people, the sun is god, should so and so kill himself, etc.

#33
Mharman
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@Vader
Ethang5, some (but not all) of RM's bans, Polytheistic_Witch, some (but not all) of Wylted's bans.

Personal attacks shouldn't be moderated. Back on DDO, Airmax let users use personal attacks and call-out threads all the time.
#34
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@Mharman
I don't mean this to be construed as the destruction of antics.  Certain thread content should be deleted ASAP, so that other members don't even have to deal with it, not as a personal offense that necessarily needs moderation but for the purpose of engaging in meaningful conversation, it's not practical for everyone to be dragged down by what one member thinks of another member or whatever ever it is.  Why should the user base have to waste time with unwarranted banter?  Report, delete, done.  If people aren't confident that their time is worth the investment, they will be less inclined to contribute quality content.




#35
Plisken
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Is it practical to give users permission to delete their own content upon it being reported by someone else?



#36
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Another thought, I would think you would want the forums to set the tone for much of the incoming user base, right?  Don't we want forums to be constructive, a place where people can be exposed to ideas, and form something to set up in debates?  I wouldn't really care about winning personally, but after a debate, then I like to read the criticisms.
#37
bsh1
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Again, the issue with public speculation against bans is that the general user base is not privy to all that went in to those discussions. Moreover, users were most certainly banned on DDO for making personal attacks. 

But, I agree with Raltar that moderation needs to expand the spectrum of options available to it in seeking to reign in member misconduct. The nothing-ban dichotomy is not really working, and make moderation appear either lazy and dismissive or overzealous and heavy-handed. To that end, I have been thinking of ways to implement non-ban solutions to issues, such as restraining orders. One example of such a solution was the choice I gave Poly before she was banned: either abstain from posting in the forums for 2 days or be banned for 3. She chose the latter, but she did, importantly, have a choice. I imagine such options, or features which allow moderation to temporarily suspend privileges such as making forum posts, will enable moderation to broaden its spectrum of deployable enforcement mechanisms so that there can be fewer bans with less disruption of users' site experience. Ultimately, it is important to me as a mod that we be minimally intrusive while still enforcing the COC as best we can, and that means implementing solutions like the one I did with Poly.
#38
Raltar
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I didn't mention "restraining orders" in my rant, but based on my experience in attempting to use one to stop a troll who was harassing me, I'm inclined to believe they are worthless. I'm not saying they should be removed from the spectrum of options, but leaning more heavily on them is definitely NOT the solution to the problems this site is facing.

Again; When someone breaks the rules, just delete the post.

Why preserve actions that violate the rules? The most obvious consequence of violating the rules should be for an authority to reverse the inappropriate action.

If someone robs a bank, they don't get to take the money to jail with them. But letting someone post nasty insults, banning them for the insults and leaving the insults online is like sending the bank robber to jail with the money.

Most of these trolls probably don't care about temp bans or "restraining orders" when they still get to keep coming back and insulting the same users over and over again.

#39
RationalMadman
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All I see is fake bitches switchin' sides unlike the realest G of the site who paid patreon while banned. GTFO noobs.
#40
Raltar
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@Plisken
Is it practical to give users permission to delete their own content upon it being reported by someone else?
I would think it practical to allow users to delete their own content regardless of any reporting.

Most modern websites allow users to delete content they post to the site whenever they wish.
#41
Raltar
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Another interesting point of note here...

I've seen the owner of the site complain that nobody is donating money.

And meanwhile, the only two users who I have seen say that they did donate money were two users that got slapped with temp bans.

Make of that what you will.
#42
bsh1
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Again; When someone breaks the rules, just delete the post. 
The answer to this question is quite simple: because the community has quite forcefully asked moderation not to do this. Moderation started out by deleting posts and threads which violated the COC, but the community felt this approach to be too heavy-handed.

If a post was doxxing someone or making credible threats of violence or doxxing against another user, it would be deleted on sight. However, posts that call other users "cunts" for example are no longer deleted, though they do count against the posting user or users. Call-out threads are now locked when they are identified, so that they quickly fall out of the first page of any forum and so that they can no longer be used as spaces to actively bash others (in fact, the locking alternative to deletion was voted for in a user referendum held by moderation). However, moderation does not do deletion in most cases because it has tried to be responsive to the demands of other community members.

I'm inclined to believe they are worthless
If the individual in question was harassing you during the RO's active period, you needed to notify moderation so that we could enforce the RO. Moderation was not aware of any violation made against you during the RO period.

Most of these trolls probably don't care about temp bans or "restraining orders" when they still get to keep coming back and insulting the same users over and over again. 
Unfortunately, that's probably true. That said, I don't think it is appropriate to leap straight to perm-banning "trolls." Everyone deserves chances to improve their conduct and reintegrate successfully into the site, and I think it would be adversely heavy-handed (and also perceived as overkill) to leap right in to perm-bans for "trolls." Bans, as they pile up on a recalcitrant individual, do escalate in length, but a perm-ban would require quite a few temp-bans leading up to it or an insanely severe act of misconduct such as doxxing another user. Doxxing is certainly one way to earn an instant perm-ban.
#43
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
Bsh1 why the actual hell do you not shut kingladdy up properly? He is LITERALLY defaming me in a severe way saying I'm a serial doxxer and it's not even a 2-3 time thing it's been 8 fucking times he's said it so far. You just let him spread this rumour to justify my ban it's so shockingly sad.

Don't worry, I will clean up my act. I got the idea here, you're a delayed mod. You are becoming active just with a time delay so I will stack reports until you have the time to address them.

I will start with SupaDudz and move onto other serial abusers until the identical justice is given to all users as was given to me, ethang and Wylted.


This is not a threat of mod action but of mod alertness. This is a threat that is not stated in CoC.
#44
bsh1
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@RationalMadman
I will start with SupaDudz and move onto other serial abusers until the identical justice is given to all users
RM, that is pretty clearly a threat of reporting/instigating mod action to other users. Please avoid those kinds of statements in public in the future--that this is inappropriate has be communicated to you a number of times.

Moreover, you are a serial doxxer; your history on DDO and with the user in question is sufficient proof of that. The truth is not defamation.

Welcome back. I am glad you have decided to "clean up your act."

#45
Raltar
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...the community has quite forcefully asked moderation not to do this.
Which brings us full circle back to what Kingladdy and I were discussing earlier in this thread...


DDO established a culture that had less and less of a passion for serious debating, but would remain interested in forum activity. This was carried on to here, and it will not be a serious debate site as long as it exists.

Debateart is waning in its userbase by the week. From the beginning it was an obscure refugee camp for DDO users, and one that hasn't even attracted every single important member to the site. Now, people have begun to flee either due to firmly disapproving of moderation, or realizing that the quality discourse on this site does not even closely resemble the level that DDO had even in it's dying days, let alone years ago when DDO was a hub for discussion, and not a site where activity is turned on/off like a switch.

Do you want this to be a serious debate website?

Or do you want it to be a life support system for the dying DDO community? 
At this point, I frankly agree with KingLaddy. This site is just DDO v2.0, which was created to be a refugee camp for a handful of users that fled from the original DDO. That same group of people is the same group that only posts on the forums, ignores the debates and feels that they should be allowed to insult other users with no meaningful consequence. This is "the community" that doesn't want their posts to get deleted.

That group of users will never get any larger than it is now, but it will shrink as people get frustrated and lose faith in a system that seems to be failing them. Meanwhile, no new users from outside the pool of fromer DDO users can be attracted to the site, because non-DDO users like myself step in here, get a good look at what is going on, and head straight for the door.

#46
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
Who have I doxxed on DDO, why is bringing DDO history allowed for me but not for me to do to other users?
#47
bsh1
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@RationalMadman
If you're making true statements that are not in the form of call-out threads and that aren't laced with other insults, I don't have a problem with it. 
#48
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
People call me out and insult me constantly while accusing me of LIES. I am NOT A FUCKING DOXXER you are a lying head mod.
#49
bsh1
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@RationalMadman
Now we're getting into credible threat territory. I am deleting that post; if you make one like it again, you will be re-banned.
#50
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
That's a threat, you can threaten me I can't threaten other abusive users.
#51
bsh1
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@RationalMadman
Okie dokie. I'm sure you'll live.
#52
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
okie dokie
#53
bsh1
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Raltar, I am not sure I agree with your conclusions, and I know others would disagree as well. That said, even if I did agree with your conclusions, my hands are tied to a large extent. Moderation is not answerable to the community per se, but neither can it ignore the vociferously expressed will of the community--which has consistently argued for laxer moderation in all respects. It is a dilemma that moderation is attempting to navigate as best it can, but the kind of arguments you're making are best addressed to the community as a whole, not just to me as a moderator. I am happy to facilitate such a discussion if there is some way I can help, but otherwise, I don't have room to maneuver to do what you're suggesting moderation does.
#54
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
You ignore it whenever you feel like it such as a few posts ago where you blackmailed me with a re-ban publicly in a threatening manner to shut me up in the exact post where you said you were upset I threatened another user with much less of a mod-related threat.

You are a cherry picking hypocrite who applies CoC as and when it pleases your ego.
#55
bsh1
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@RationalMadman
I'm a moderator, RM. It's part of my job description to issue warnings (including pointing out the consequences of misconduct) and to maintain order--and that post of mine was a very clear reminder to you that threats of that kind will not be tolerated. Period. You cannot excuse threatening other users by appealing to some misguided sense of victimhood. 
#56
Raltar
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...the kind of arguments you're making are best addressed to the community as a whole, not just to me as a moderator.
1. Kingladdy made those arguments originally. I merely agree with them, because simple observation of this community and it's behavior implies the truth of his assessment.

2. I never actually addressed you at all. You joined this thread of your own violition.

#57
RationalMadman
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@bsh1
Is it part of your job description to pick on easy targets due to social awkwardness? Do you know that out of the four people who gave enough of a cr*p about the site to pay cash with no penalty for not doing so, so far 3 are your sworn enemies?

1. Drafterman
2. Lunatic
3. Wylted
4. RM

All monthly patreons unless Drafterman was a one-off and IDK if it was him he claimed it elsewhere in a post here and it was strange who the extra one was so I believe him.

You dont know what you are doing bsh1. You are banning the passionate who are being triggered by utter ****** to the site's community. They exist solely to point laugh and sadistically relish in the site.

Thett3 literally said the user he admires most in DDO is probably ResponsiblyIrresponsible because he left the site for good. HAHAHAHA This is the hilarity, you have the prominent social leaders you bow down to being the types who support giving zero sh*t about the site and admiring users who do so. 

This is the culture you have raised bsh1, this is the culture you nurtured, loved and enforced against the people like me and Wylted and lowkey scared Drafterman into silence until we are all scared sh*tless. Your tricks may work with the others, you're good at what you do when it comes to muddying the waters but trust me son, you aint half the player I am at your best day and that's all that needs to be said.
#58
bsh1
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I never actually addressed you at all. You joined this thread of your own violition. 
Sure, but you brought them up in the course of our conversation, which is why I phrased my reply that way. But I take your point.
#59
bsh1
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@RationalMadman


Besides, I've never kept track of who donates. No one gets to buy their way out of moderation.
#60
RationalMadman
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@bsh1