Instigator / Pro
17
1495
rating
47
debates
48.94%
won
Topic
#931
Brandon Stark will be the one who leads Westeros at the end of episode 6
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 4 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...
Barney
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
27
1815
rating
53
debates
100.0%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Brandon Stark is now the King of Westeros. The only angle you have is that he is not king of ALL of it, but he is indeed the primary ruler, having more power than Queen Sansa whom he is closely allied with to begin with and is essentially allowing to be independent despite the fact that he could take the north if he wanted to using the combined might of the other six kingdoms.
I shall first give definitions in case clarity is needed, then
refute pro’s case, and finally make my own.
Definitions:
As Sparrow is notorious for playing BS semantic games...
This debate is about the HBO TV series Game
of Thrones, based on the book series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin.
Westeros is a fictional continent within Game of Thrones.
Brandon Stark is a crippled boy within Game of Thrones.
Tyrion Lannister is a dwarf within Game of Thrones.
Robert Baratheon is a drunk within Game of Thrones.
Petyr
Baelish is a whoremonger within Game of Thrones.
Rebuttal:
Pro’s case has nothing to do with episode 6. To avoid spoilers
from the most recent season, please skip to the next heading.
Further, I’ll refute his interpretations of events in a much
later episode (73 to be precise).
<<<SPOILERS BEGIN>>>
“Brandon Stark is now the King of Westeros.”
Incorrect. He is the recognized king of one ethnic group, and
lord of six kingdoms. Those six kingdoms make up roughly half of Westeros, but claiming
him as king of Westeros would be as non sequitur as claiming
Donald Trump is king of Mexico and Canada.
“he is indeed the primary ruler”
Even by this standard pro is incorrect. Bran is a puppet for the council. Worse, he was nominated by Tyrion, who has taken the highest ranking
seat on said council, and already appointed another of his puppet’s
as master of coin.
“he could take the north if he wanted”
This is an accidental concession of the debate, as even were
this a discussion of episode 73, he clearly never came to lead Westeros via not
leading either northern region (which again, make up about half the
landmass).
<<<SPOILERS END>>>
Arguments:
Given this debate focuses on the idea of “the one who leads,” at the end of episode 6 I shall first show why that one is not Bran, and then show a couple of
candidates who could be considered that singular person.
C1. Bran is Unimportant
There is nothing to suggest Bran leads so much as one
kingdom in Westeros (his brother Robb would be next in line, should Ned lose
his head or anything), let alone the whole continent. No big political events
even stem from his encounter with wildlings in episode 6. Bran’s events in in
the episode are summarized as follows (taken from wiki):
“After having another dream about the Three-Eyed Raven, Bran tries out his new saddle on a ride in the godswood and is thrilled to find that it works. While riding, he is attacked by wildlings led by Stiv. He tells them he is unable to get off the saddle due to the design of the straps, allowing them to see his crippled status. During the ambush, he is cut by Wallen on his upper left leg, allowing him to discover that he is immune to pain as well as immobile. Robb and Theon Greyjoy defend Bran, killing Stiv and the other wildlings apart from Osha, who surrenders.”
C2. Littlefinger’s Scheming
Petyr Baelish (AKA Littlefinger) is clearly up to no good.
While his role in this episode is small, I suspect he will prove to be secretly
leading the seven kingdoms into war.
His events in the episode are as follows (taken from wiki):
“Littlefinger is stunned when Eddard orders that Gregor Clegane be arrested and executed for his raids on the Riverlands and when he orders Tywin Lannister to present himself at court to answer for his bannerman's crimes. Littlefinger reminds Eddard that Tywin is the richest man in Westeros and that it is gold that wins wars, not armies. Eddard disagrees, asking why Tywin is not the king if this is the case.”
C3. Robert Baratheon is Lord of the Seven Kingdoms
I’ll summarize his importance with a quote from him:
“Honor? I've got Seven Kingdoms to rule! One king, Seven Kingdoms! Do you think honor keeps them in line? Do you think it's honor that's keeping the peace? It's fear! Fear and blood!”
C4. Khal Drogo
While not even in Westeros during episode 6, his murder of the rightful heir to the Iron Throne is certainly more important than anything involving Bran.
Round 2
As Sparrow is notorious for playing BS semantic games...
This is poor conduct and your personal unsubstantiated opinions about my debating tactics are irrelevant.
Everything else you say is equally irrelevant because everyone knows that I am talking about season 8's episode six. Brandon Stark is the ruler of westeros, and you just wasted way too much time listing information about an irrelevant episode from season 1.
Definitions:
Extend all, to include my prediction of Sparrow's cheap semantic game, which he committed by attempting without justification to move the goalpost to episode 73 instead of episode 6.
That multiple seasons have a 6th episode, does not change their overall number in the series. Were they each considered, it would just multiply Bran not leading Westeros a total of 8 times (as I proved in the rebuttal section, even in season 8 he did not end up leading Westeros; a point Sparrow chose to drop).
Rebuttals:
Extend all.
Further, Sparrow has comedically proclaimed all information about season 8 to be "irrelevant," throwing out his own case and any hope of attaining his Burden of Proof.
Arguments:
Extend all.
Round 3
The title of this debate is Brandon Stark WILL be the one who leads Westeros at the end of episode 6. The use of the word "will" implies that this is something that will happen in the future, not something which has already happened (and I created this debate before the resolution was actually confirmed with the coming of episode 6, and after the episode 6 Con is talking about.) It wouldn't make much sense for me to be predicting something that happened in 2011 now would it? I am obviously talking about episode 6 of season 8, and grammatically and semantically this is the only interpretation that makes sense since season 8's episode six is the only "episode 6" that "will" be happening relative to the time I made this debate.
But even if you still want to press the issue, I have another way to dismantle your intellectual dishonesty. "Episode 6" can refer to episode 6 of any particular season, or to the sixth episode of all 73 episodes. The mere term "episode 6" can be used in more contexts than just one. In the context of episode six of season 8 specifically, which fits under "episode six" just as well as any other episode six, whether it be a particular season or the whole series you're referring to, Brandon Stark does indeed become King of Westeros, Therefore In episode six, Brandon becomes the leader of westeros. It doesn't matter if in episode 6 of 73 he doesn't, or if in all the other seasons he doesn't because just one "episode six" in which Brandon is King is enough for the resolution to be technically correct.
You can pretend that I am talking about episode six of season one, or pretend that since in every other season's episode 6 doesn't have King Bran in it the obvious is refuted, but no matter how many ways you try to twist it the fact will remain...In episode 6 of season eight, Bran becomes king, therefore it is perfectly, indisputably semantically and factually correct to say that Brandon Stark will be the one who leads Westeros at the end of episode six.
But even if you still want to press the issue, I have another way to dismantle your intellectual dishonesty. "Episode 6" can refer to episode 6 of any particular season, or to the sixth episode of all 73 episodes. The mere term "episode 6" can be used in more contexts than just one. In the context of episode six of season 8 specifically, which fits under "episode six" just as well as any other episode six, whether it be a particular season or the whole series you're referring to, Brandon Stark does indeed become King of Westeros, Therefore In episode six, Brandon becomes the leader of westeros. It doesn't matter if in episode 6 of 73 he doesn't, or if in all the other seasons he doesn't because just one "episode six" in which Brandon is King is enough for the resolution to be technically correct.
You can pretend that I am talking about episode six of season one, or pretend that since in every other season's episode 6 doesn't have King Bran in it the obvious is refuted, but no matter how many ways you try to twist it the fact will remain...In episode 6 of season eight, Bran becomes king, therefore it is perfectly, indisputably semantically and factually correct to say that Brandon Stark will be the one who leads Westeros at the end of episode six.
Summary:
Sparrow has refused to defend his single argument against my direct rebuttals; leaving it uncontested that even by the standard of episode 73, Bran becomes a puppet who leads nothing. To repeat my best line: "Claiming him as king of Westeros would be as non sequitur as claiming Donald Trump is king of Mexico and Canada."
Further, Sparrow was caught twice conceding this debate, and has withdrawn neither.
Voting Suggestions:
Due to voting issues on this site, a few reminders for if awarding points in each category...
1. Arguments
Name at least one argument and how it was refuted and defended, then why you chose the awardee.
2. Sources
Name at least one source and why it impacted the debate (the numbered episode list for the whole series for example), and also the absence of counter evidence.
3. S&G
This should be tied. But for future reference: If ever trying to award it, remember to name why one side was better and the other worse (contrasting each side is required, even if it seems obvious).
4. Conduct
I also don’t suggest awarding it for this case, but as a rule name at least the worst sin committed by each side (even if one committed none, admin requires them being nice to be listed).
Someone came out with a GoT extended ending, and while intended as comedy, I'd say it's a nice improvement! https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/status/1130581319593783296
Thanks for voting.
Note: I have zero objections to any of the votes cast.
At the top of my second half of RFD, I wrote Pro when I meant Con. Particularly confusing at the top of the argument like that. Sorry.
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Vote Reported: oromagi, Death23, Ramshutu // Mod Action: Not Removed
Reason for mod action: These votes were found to be sufficient per the site voting policy standards.
*******************************************************************
NOTE: GOT SPOILERS HERE
Pro defines terms, establishes clearly which episode 6 he is discussing and continues to complete four solid reasons Bran is not King of anything in Episode 6 (Season 1, ep 6).
Pro calls Season 8, ep 6 in R2 but Pro has the superior responsibility to define terms up front and is given the advantage of the description section to set terms. Pro dropped 3 opportunities (title, description, R1) to clearly define which episode was under discussion. Pro fails to set up the goalposts for the game, even though its Pro's stadium. Con kindly sets up the goalposts so that Pro and Con can play. Pro doesn't get to complain about the goalpost's placement after the game has begun.
Con's deft maneuver leaves Pro beyond the wall in winter, out in the cold.
Sources to CON: Con over-sources stylistically in this debate, improving his authority to lay claim to which ep 6 was discussed. Very nicely done. Pro used no sources to back any claims.
Grammar tied: I'd give grammar to CON for using non sequitur as an adjective alone if I thought the mods would uphold.
Conduct tied: I agree with Pro that Pro's conduct in other debates makes an irrelevant argument but an irrelevant argument is not poor conduct. I considered whether failure to alert readers to spoilers is poor conduct. My rule of thumb is that spoiler alerts are appropriate for one week after tv premiere, two weeks after cinema. Since the argument was essentially a magic trick: a prediction that surprisingly comes true- I think a spoiler alert would have suggested that Pro had real insider info and so ruin the magical effect. I can't really fault Pro for withholding a spoiler alert in this case.
NOTE: GOT SPOILERS HERE
Thanks to Sparrow for another GOT debate & nice job to both debaters for rapid-fire arguments.
Arguments to CON: Loki v. Hulk
By good intuition or good information, Pro accurately predicts that Brandon Stark gets unexpectedly elevated as the new King of six kingdoms. Pro's phrasing of thesis allowed for at least two lines of attack:
not king of all Westeros
poorly specified episode info
Pro anticipated the former and with a little effort might have made a case that while the six kingdoms make less than half of the continent of Westeros, in most contexts Westeros and the seven kingdoms are used somewhat interchangeably. I've seen some maps that would support this argument. Few seem to think of Westeros as beyond the wall and the extent of the continent beyond the wall is unknown.
Pro failed to anticipate the latter even though Con pre-argued in the comments section. Con totally exploited Pro's failure to define terms and Pro's failure to anchor the assertion in proof (even a link to the a scene on youtube here might have given Pro some evidence to defend the intention of "final episode" or "Season 8, episode 6").
Thanks for voting.
In case you're worried about spoilers from episodes 68-73, I have a large warning around the small bit of discussion I give to them.
there's a lot of bad press today, which makes me think I liked it more than most. I think the whole season would have worked much better in the usual season format. Mostly I think this season wanted for the sex and humor of previous seasons. I think King's Landing in winter was about as beautiful a setting as I've ever seen seen in fantasy.
oh no
I've seen every episode. To include episode 6. I really liked how Bran met Osha as an enemy, but they were destined to be allies.
Debate title is a spoiler. Gotta watch things when they come out because the world is polluted with spoilers.
Who else has watched it all now?
SPOILER ALERT: Bran the Broken is not the leader of all Westeros at the end of GOT