1565
rating
6
debates
83.33%
won
Topic
#765
Is Israel a good ally?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
whiteflame
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
1724
rating
27
debates
88.89%
won
Description
We will be debating whether or not we should continue an alliance with the state of Israel and use of funds to support their military.
Round 1
One of my main complaints with our continued "alliance" is that it seems that they will do nearly anything they can in order to use America as a club against its enemies. They seem to only care about their own interests, even if it means we have to go to war for them. The first example of this would be in 1967 during the Six-Day War in which Israel sank our spy ship known as the USS Liberty. They initially stated they didn't know it was our ship. However, recently it has been uncovered that they knew it was our ship over two hours before the attack and expressed frustration that it wasn't sinking[1][2]. They wished to destroy the evidence that they attacked it and blame it on the Egyptians so that we would become involved in their conflict and fight the neighboring Arab nations for them.
This theme has continued to modern times. Netanyahu declared before congress that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction based on evidence that they had gathered. He said that taking down Saddam Hussein would have "positive reverberations" in the region. Israel knew there were no WMDs[3][4], and based on threats such as ISIS that had arisen since that war, I think we can both agree that the promise of "positive reverberations" was also a lie.
Israel also has far too much influence over American politics. Pro-Israel groups such as AIPAC have given millions of dollars to many politicians in the past eight years. A quote by a former AIPAC employee states “Everything AIPAC does is focused on influencing congress, you can’t influence the President of the United States directly but the congress can,”. Ex-congressman Jim Moran said that "If you have AIPAC's support, more often than not you're going to win".[5] These organizations have caused a huge shift in policy that often supports Israel over American. One such instance is our reluctance to pay for a wall, yet we pay for security for Israel. Another was an email from Hillary Clinton exposed on WikiLeaks that said the best way to help Israel is to topple Assad in Syria (the war theme shows up a lot). All of this is in addition to the fact that Israel spies on us constantly, as AIPAC even funded the Canary Mission, which doxxes US college students by labeling them racist, anti-semitic, etc. [5][6]
Finally, Israel sent military technology to China that is used in the production of military equipment such as missiles[7]. Iran has been trying to buy military technology from China for years. The hope may be that Isan gets weapons and the US will come in to crush Iran's military to save Israel once again, but this is speculation.
So, going forward in this debate, I would like to ask my opponent: Why should we be giving billions of dollars to a country that creates so many enemies for us in the Middle East, spies on us, and leads to the deaths of thousands of brave Americans by having us fight ceaseless conflicts with its neighbors?
Sources:
Thanks to my valiant opponent for initiating this debate! I look forward to seeing how this shakes out.
1. Is Israel a net beneficial ally to the US?
Let’s start off by
clarifying the positions in this debate. To start, note that this debate
requires us to take positions on the value of both the US-Israel alliance and
the resulting military aid. The question is whether these should continue. This
debate breaks down to three key elements, each of which are essential to any
assessment of the value of this alliance.
This is a straightforward
calculus. The US puts a certain amount of money and effort into Israel, and the
question is whether what we get back exceeds the value of what we put in. Note
that this focuses entirely on what the US has gained/will gain from the alliance.
2. Is maintaining an alliance with Israel net
beneficial?
This might sound the same
as the previous one, but there are two distinct differences. First, it
emphasizes what happens should the relationship be severed. If it would not be
beneficial to continue an alliance, then the potential harms of ending said
alliance must be outweighed by the potential benefits. Second, it does not
focus on the US alone. Importantly, we can and must consider the effects of
ceasing our alliance and our military support for Israel on Israel, as it is only right to discuss outcomes for the country we
will be affecting the most. Also, the
effects of ending the alliance between the US and Israel are not contained to
the US and Israel alone, and as such, we must assess the impact to the region
and the world of such a decision.
3. Should the US continue to provide military funds
to Israel?
This is covered by the
previous two, though it’s also somewhat separate, mainly because of what our
positions require of us. Choosing to end an alliance is an absolute, whereas
choosing to continue one provides for more malleability. While I must argue
that Israel is a net beneficial ally, I need not argue that our relationship be
maintained in its current form, nor am I required to argue for the maintenance or
an increase in aid given to Israel. All I must argue is that some amount of military
aid should continue to flow towards Israel. Con’s framing of the debate
requires him to argue that no such moneys should be afforded to Israel, and he
must argue for a complete severance of our alliance for the foreseeable future.
With that, I’ll launch
into my arguments.
1. Conflict and Leverage
Let’s talk about the Israel-Palestine conflict. It has persisted for an incredibly long period of time,and continues to persist with no signs of ending. Hamas has protracted the fighting by launching rockets into Israel, knowing full well that they will inflict no damage and result in retaliation. Hamas has a regular habit of violating even short term ceasefires, and doesn't even seem to be seriously united in their actions, as their military wing and political wing are clearly divided in what they will accept.[1] We see evidence of their expectations in the Hamas Covenent, which clearly supports the obliteration or dissolution of Israel, i.e. they will not accept a 2-state solution.[2] Israel has responded to Hamas with the deaths of 1,000 Palestinians. There are far-rightwing members of the government that would stand for nothing less than total victory in Gaza, and they have substantial control over political decisions.[1]
So there are large and influential bodies on both sides that will settle for nothing short of complete victory. There's no room for agreement in this case because neither side is budging. To re-emphasize from my overview, the cessation of our alliance, and with it our military aid, is absolute for any foreseeable future. Without a clear threshold for returning to either of these, Con effectively yanks away all US leverage in the region. Only in a world where a) there is a mutual reliance between our militaries that ensures US assistance in conflicts and b) there are funds provided to maintain and better equip the Israeli military is there any incentive structure to act differently. Both can be reduced or drawn back in response to misplaced efforts on the part of the Israelis or increased to encourage specific actions.
2. Israeli Benefits
$3 billion equates to a third of Israel's defense budget, though access to U.S. expertise, technology, and surplus equipment is invaluable. With Iran and Syria standing as near constant threats to Israel, particularly from the use of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, putting Israel's defense spending in jeopardy to such a significant degree opens the door to devastating attacks.[3] Israel also receives emergency funds when war erupts and as incentive for positive developments, like the Egypt-Israel peace treaty, the Wye River Memorandum, and the 2005 Gaza withdrawal.[4] Both Israel and the region have benefitted from these developments, and Israel has benefitted from receiving emergency funds and equipment (which ensured their survival without the deployment of any U.S. troops against pro-Soviet Egyptian and Syrian armies [3]) that would be unavailable in Con's world.
3. Regional Benefits
Let's talk about the strong horse principle. "[T]he strong horse is the person, tribe, country, or nation that is best able to impose its will upon others, the weaker horses, through the use of force." It's been "active for more than a millennium in Arab politics," and it plays out as usually violent struggles between powers in the region. A weak horse invites attack, and a strong horse deters. Most importantly, "the stronger the horse, the greater the deterrence."[5]
Our role as a global strong horse places us in a unique position to elevate powers to that status. In aligning ourselves with a proxy strong horse, we create a stabilizing force in a region without a clear top power, and conversely, if we abdicate that role, we invite aggression. Israel functions as that stabilizing force in status quo, yet our decision to no longer aid their military creates the perception of weakness, which is enough to invite conflict. It also weakens perception of the U.S., as we become an untrustworthy ally.[5] Both Israel and the U.S. have a vested interested in stability and peace in the region, one that's built on democratic values and tolerance, whereas Arab nations are often split by ethnic rivalries that incite hatred and violence against others. While it is far from perfect, Israel easily outdistances other countries in the Middle East on human development and freedom. [3] Hatred of Israel and Jews in the Middle East is ingrained to the point that any of these being the strong horse results in mass persecution.[6] Generals in the U.S. military recognize this: "In the Middle East, a volatile region so vital to U.S. interests, it would be foolish to disengage - or denigrate - an ally such as Israel."[5]
4. U.S. Benefits
It goes without saying that if we're spending $3 billion a year, we should be getting some returns on it. There are plenty of non-economic benefits, including Israel's consistent record of support in UN votes and support in military operations, something none of our other allies have done to nearly that degree of consistency. The long-standing relationship wasn't built off of nothing: we share democratic values, they have consistently repaid debts, they are a major source of both business deals and tourists to the U.S., we share a broad number of innovations (particularly in high tech), we draw from their talent pools, our trade relationships have dramatically risen in value over time, growing in one decade from $6 billion to $20 billion.[6] It also helps that 95% of U.S. aid to Israel is spent in the US, which means that the vast majority of the funds we send to them come back and bolster our economy.[7]
Israel is our closest ally in the Middle East, supporting U.S. policy therein. It's not just location, either. "Israel has consistently been a major security asset to the United States, an asset upon which America can rely, far more so than have been other recipients of American largesse... Israel is arguably the world's leading expert in collecting intelligence on terrorist groups" and we've consistently received intelligence, research and development savings from working with them that value as much as 4X greater than the grants they receive.[5] These benefits apply to counter-terrorist efforts and addressing unconventional weapons and cyber-threats. And this value isn't just economic. Their expertise has successfully reduced the effectiveness of improvised explosive devices on our troops, reducing casualties substantially.[6]
And that's just their intelligence. The Supreme Commander of NATO himself described Israel as "the largest US aircraft carrier, which does not require even one US soldier, cannot be sunk, is the most cost-effective and battle-tested, located in a region which is critical to vital US interests. If there would not be an Israel, the US would have to deploy real aircraft carriers, along with tens of thousands of US soldiers, which would cost tens of billions of dollars annually, dragging the US unnecessarily into local, regional and global conflicts." They provide us with safe and dependable ports and bases in the Middle East, which provide us with a means to deploy troops that reduces costs by trillions of dollars.[8] Their actions also reduce the danger of nuclear arms and terrorism, as well as stabilizing the region to ensure consistent access to Middle Eastern oil and gas.[3] And let's be clear that shifting the money to Muslim nations in the region is more likely to do us harm than it is to benefit us in any way.[9]
Thus, we garner far more from this relationship than the $3 billion we spend per year. At the point that the U.S. decides to renege on its alliance with and support for Israel, they become likely to rescind their own support mechanisms.[10] With little reason to trust us, particularly as we step back from a decades-long alliance, they have no reason to share intelligence, collaborate with new and cutting edge military technology, and certainly not share a base or physical resources. Ending this relationship debilitates our military, especially in the Middle East.
1. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/03/arab-israel-palestinians-gaza-conflict-may-never-end
2. https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
3. https://www.meforum.org/259/end-american-aid-to-israel-no-it-remains-vital
4. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel
5. https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/110555/america-strengthened-its-support-israel-david-meir-levi
6. http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/17/unitedstatesisrael1.htm#B1
7. http://www.israellobby.org/AIPAC/AIPAC_Vital_Assistance.pdf
8. https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/107007/us-aid-israel-why-its-must-david-meir-levi
9. https://www.theoaklandpress.com/news/u-s-aid-to-muslim-nations-not-paying-any-dividends/article_ba44730a-6876-5ac9-9abb-f7467ce323e8.html
10. https://www.aipac.org/-/media/publications/policy-and-politics/aipac-analyses/issue-memos/2010/11/aipac_memo_aid_to_israel_foreign_aid_funding_vital_for_u_s_national_security.pdf
Let’s talk about the Israel-Palestine conflict. It has persisted for an incredibly long period of time,and continues to persist with no signs of ending. Hamas has protracted the fighting by launching rockets into Israel, knowing full well that they will inflict no damage and result in retaliation. Hamas has a regular habit of violating even short term ceasefires, and doesn't even seem to be seriously united in their actions, as their military wing and political wing are clearly divided in what they will accept.[1] We see evidence of their expectations in the Hamas Covenent, which clearly supports the obliteration or dissolution of Israel, i.e. they will not accept a 2-state solution.[2] Israel has responded to Hamas with the deaths of 1,000 Palestinians. There are far-rightwing members of the government that would stand for nothing less than total victory in Gaza, and they have substantial control over political decisions.[1]
So there are large and influential bodies on both sides that will settle for nothing short of complete victory. There's no room for agreement in this case because neither side is budging. To re-emphasize from my overview, the cessation of our alliance, and with it our military aid, is absolute for any foreseeable future. Without a clear threshold for returning to either of these, Con effectively yanks away all US leverage in the region. Only in a world where a) there is a mutual reliance between our militaries that ensures US assistance in conflicts and b) there are funds provided to maintain and better equip the Israeli military is there any incentive structure to act differently. Both can be reduced or drawn back in response to misplaced efforts on the part of the Israelis or increased to encourage specific actions.
2. Israeli Benefits
$3 billion equates to a third of Israel's defense budget, though access to U.S. expertise, technology, and surplus equipment is invaluable. With Iran and Syria standing as near constant threats to Israel, particularly from the use of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, putting Israel's defense spending in jeopardy to such a significant degree opens the door to devastating attacks.[3] Israel also receives emergency funds when war erupts and as incentive for positive developments, like the Egypt-Israel peace treaty, the Wye River Memorandum, and the 2005 Gaza withdrawal.[4] Both Israel and the region have benefitted from these developments, and Israel has benefitted from receiving emergency funds and equipment (which ensured their survival without the deployment of any U.S. troops against pro-Soviet Egyptian and Syrian armies [3]) that would be unavailable in Con's world.
3. Regional Benefits
Let's talk about the strong horse principle. "[T]he strong horse is the person, tribe, country, or nation that is best able to impose its will upon others, the weaker horses, through the use of force." It's been "active for more than a millennium in Arab politics," and it plays out as usually violent struggles between powers in the region. A weak horse invites attack, and a strong horse deters. Most importantly, "the stronger the horse, the greater the deterrence."[5]
Our role as a global strong horse places us in a unique position to elevate powers to that status. In aligning ourselves with a proxy strong horse, we create a stabilizing force in a region without a clear top power, and conversely, if we abdicate that role, we invite aggression. Israel functions as that stabilizing force in status quo, yet our decision to no longer aid their military creates the perception of weakness, which is enough to invite conflict. It also weakens perception of the U.S., as we become an untrustworthy ally.[5] Both Israel and the U.S. have a vested interested in stability and peace in the region, one that's built on democratic values and tolerance, whereas Arab nations are often split by ethnic rivalries that incite hatred and violence against others. While it is far from perfect, Israel easily outdistances other countries in the Middle East on human development and freedom. [3] Hatred of Israel and Jews in the Middle East is ingrained to the point that any of these being the strong horse results in mass persecution.[6] Generals in the U.S. military recognize this: "In the Middle East, a volatile region so vital to U.S. interests, it would be foolish to disengage - or denigrate - an ally such as Israel."[5]
4. U.S. Benefits
It goes without saying that if we're spending $3 billion a year, we should be getting some returns on it. There are plenty of non-economic benefits, including Israel's consistent record of support in UN votes and support in military operations, something none of our other allies have done to nearly that degree of consistency. The long-standing relationship wasn't built off of nothing: we share democratic values, they have consistently repaid debts, they are a major source of both business deals and tourists to the U.S., we share a broad number of innovations (particularly in high tech), we draw from their talent pools, our trade relationships have dramatically risen in value over time, growing in one decade from $6 billion to $20 billion.[6] It also helps that 95% of U.S. aid to Israel is spent in the US, which means that the vast majority of the funds we send to them come back and bolster our economy.[7]
Israel is our closest ally in the Middle East, supporting U.S. policy therein. It's not just location, either. "Israel has consistently been a major security asset to the United States, an asset upon which America can rely, far more so than have been other recipients of American largesse... Israel is arguably the world's leading expert in collecting intelligence on terrorist groups" and we've consistently received intelligence, research and development savings from working with them that value as much as 4X greater than the grants they receive.[5] These benefits apply to counter-terrorist efforts and addressing unconventional weapons and cyber-threats. And this value isn't just economic. Their expertise has successfully reduced the effectiveness of improvised explosive devices on our troops, reducing casualties substantially.[6]
And that's just their intelligence. The Supreme Commander of NATO himself described Israel as "the largest US aircraft carrier, which does not require even one US soldier, cannot be sunk, is the most cost-effective and battle-tested, located in a region which is critical to vital US interests. If there would not be an Israel, the US would have to deploy real aircraft carriers, along with tens of thousands of US soldiers, which would cost tens of billions of dollars annually, dragging the US unnecessarily into local, regional and global conflicts." They provide us with safe and dependable ports and bases in the Middle East, which provide us with a means to deploy troops that reduces costs by trillions of dollars.[8] Their actions also reduce the danger of nuclear arms and terrorism, as well as stabilizing the region to ensure consistent access to Middle Eastern oil and gas.[3] And let's be clear that shifting the money to Muslim nations in the region is more likely to do us harm than it is to benefit us in any way.[9]
Thus, we garner far more from this relationship than the $3 billion we spend per year. At the point that the U.S. decides to renege on its alliance with and support for Israel, they become likely to rescind their own support mechanisms.[10] With little reason to trust us, particularly as we step back from a decades-long alliance, they have no reason to share intelligence, collaborate with new and cutting edge military technology, and certainly not share a base or physical resources. Ending this relationship debilitates our military, especially in the Middle East.
1. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/03/arab-israel-palestinians-gaza-conflict-may-never-end
2. https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
3. https://www.meforum.org/259/end-american-aid-to-israel-no-it-remains-vital
4. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/history-and-overview-of-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel
5. https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/110555/america-strengthened-its-support-israel-david-meir-levi
6. http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/17/unitedstatesisrael1.htm#B1
7. http://www.israellobby.org/AIPAC/AIPAC_Vital_Assistance.pdf
8. https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/107007/us-aid-israel-why-its-must-david-meir-levi
9. https://www.theoaklandpress.com/news/u-s-aid-to-muslim-nations-not-paying-any-dividends/article_ba44730a-6876-5ac9-9abb-f7467ce323e8.html
10. https://www.aipac.org/-/media/publications/policy-and-politics/aipac-analyses/issue-memos/2010/11/aipac_memo_aid_to_israel_foreign_aid_funding_vital_for_u_s_national_security.pdf
Round 2
I would like to commend my opponent on articulating some good, valid points. A few of these points, I will agree upon, yet I disagree with most.
Point 1
In your first argument, you state that the conflicts have persisted a very long time and that there is no end in sight. So,then, what we have been doing obviously isn't working. We have been giving them military and financial aid since the Cold War, and only fighting has ensued. Also, you stated that Hamas doesn't cause serious damage, yet the Israelis have felt compelled to react with unnecessary force, killing thousands of Palestinians, according to your sources. Further on the theme that this conflict will not resolve by itself, you have mentioned that both sides are mostly dedicated to the idea that there is no option other than complete victory. Your main point in this argument was to have us use an incentive system with aid, which is a potential option. However, these right-winged politicians that you yourself mentioned have a lot of influence is mirrored by the heavy impact of AIPAC on our elections[1]. The right winged individuals who have influence over Israel are obviously influencing AIPAC, who in turn influence our politicians. This can be seen from the fact that we are locked into giving Israel fixed sums of money, which prevents us from pursuing the money incentive system that you mentioned[2]. Israel has so much influence, that the government will violate the constitution in order to support the country. The policies to which I am referring are anti-BDS legislation. So, in twenty-seven states, private companies are not able to boycott Israel under threats ranging from condemnation to losing state government contracts[3]. So, this is why I believe that we should sever our alliance. For the ten years of the aforementioned deal, we will still be supporting them with $3.8 billion annually. By the time the contract ends, they must fix their obviously expansionist policies if they want us to begin aiding them again[4].
Point 2
I have a few points to make against your second point. You state that Israel needs our money to support their military, citing the fact that we make up a third of their budget. However, they would definitely be able to support their military by themselves against terrorist rebels. You mentioned Israel's main antagonists being Syria and Iran. Israel's GDP per capita is $36,200, while Iran's and Syria's are $20,000 and $2,900 respectively[5]. This proves that Israel is much more wealthy than these other countries and can support themselves. You mention that Israel has to fear chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. You must be forgetting that Israel has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty(NPT), while Iran and Syria both have[6]. In fact, 189 countries have signed it, but Israel hasn't and they are known to be building a stockpile, which we are inadvertently subsidizing by paying for their military[7][8]. They have more funds with which to develop their nuclear programs. I would like to clarify my points in terms of previous support. You said that they would not have been able to fend off neighboring countries that attacked them in the Cold War. This is an entirely different debate to be had, but we must keep in mind that the Cold War was a different time. Now we have begun to subsidize its aforementioned expansion[4]. You obviously supported the Cold War funding of Israel, but it would have been much better to threaten divestment from both countries as a deterrent of war that would likely have had less damaging diplomatic effects in the Arab world.
Point 3
Now on to your third point. I would like to iterate that Israel would still continue to be the strong horse in the region based off of their GDP[5]. In fact, they currently have the 8th most powerful military in the world[9]. They are rich enough to divert more funds to their military if possible. You cited the fact that Israel is democratic and that the Arabs are split by ethnic rivalries. This just further proves my point that Israel doesn't need us. Their enemies wouldn't be able to unite to fight Israel if they are busy fighting themselves[10].
Point 4
The fourth and final points are perhaps my favorites in the debate. You state that Israel supports our military engagements. I'm assuming you are referring to Iraq invasion and using missiles against the Syrians. Of course they would support this, as I stated, they lied about WMDs in Iraq to get us to topple their enemies for them. According to Hillary Clinton's emails, the best way to support Israel is to topple Assad in Syria[1]. This just furthers my point that they are using us to support themselves, and they would have been foolish not to support those actions that benefit them at our expense. In terms of our current trade deals with Israel, they would only be hurting themselves. Your source number six stated that many US countries have R&D facilities such as Intel and Microsoft. This proves that they are largely benefiting from our trade relationship, and as you know, free trade helps both countries. I am merely saying that we should not support their military or give them money, I am not a supporter of BDS. However, I think we should stop sharing military information with them, as they have been known to sometimes give it to China[11].
You stated that 95% of our military aid is spent on the US. I think that this is a terrible position to take. Think for a moment, does it benefit a grocery store to give out 100% coupons just so the money isn't spent elsewhere? Of course not. We are just directly subsidizing the military industrial complex, which has been known to incite wars in other countries to make money[12]. I stated earlier that their intelligence is questionable at best. Netanyahu stated that there were indeed WMDs in Iraq according to their intelligence[1]. That lie led to 4,541 brave US soldiers dying in Iraq[13]. From the sinking of the USS Liberty as mentioned in my first round, to the Iraq War, they have proven that they are willing to lie and even kill US soldiers in order to drag us into their wars. I simply cannot abide by this alliance. You also state that we save trillions of dollars. The fact is that we likely wouldn't be in the Middle East if it wasn't for Israel. During the Cold War, we began having a tilt towards Israel, and this fostered Anti-American sentiments[14]. The Iraq War alone added over $1 trillion to our debt, so I would dispute the financial advantages of our relationship with them[15]. I agree with the point that says giving money to the Arab world would likely be harmful to us. I agree, I am arguing that we stop aid to Israel, not that we shift the money to the Arabs. As I stated in my first round, with our growing debt, we shouldn't be giving foreign aid to countries. Finally, this brings me to your last few points. You say that they will not share "cutting-edge" military technology. If they have such an advanced military, I ask you, why do they need us? Also, you mention their intelligence, which I have proven to be unreliable[1][16]. Finally, you say that they will no longer trust us after rescinding our long alliance. We have been taking troops out of the Middle East and will no longer need this so-called "alliance"[17].
Our alliance with this nation has only garnered anti-American sentiments in the Middle East and has cost us billions of dollars by which we have subsidized the military-industrial complex. I say we stop funding their expansion and begin focusing on our own interest rather than Israel's. I look forward to your rebuttal.
Sources:
Thanks again to my opponent, and let's get into some rebuttal. Counter-rebuttal will be next round.
Con’s argument has 3 pieces. I’ll address each in turn. Before I start, two overviews.
First, I must point out that Pro’s arguments do not take the
interests of other countries into account, particularly those of Israel. As I
pointed out in my overview, if the effect on Israel is negative, then that’s a
harm for Pro’s case. I will weigh the specifics of that harm against the
potential benefits to the US when I defend my case next round, but given that
Con’s whole case is that we have to punish Israel for behaving badly, we must
either assume that rescinding the alliance and our military support will harm
them. That harm is guaranteed in this debate, it’s just a matter of severity.
Second, and I’ll get into this more next round, Con provides
no means for Israel to re-ally itself with the US or to regain US military aid.
In doing so, Con denies Israel access to emergency support, ensures reduced
collaboration between our two countries in a persistent manner, and permanently
removes an important source of leverage, replacing it with nothing.
Onto the direct rebuttal.
All of Con’s examples all point backwards, including a war
from over 50 years ago and the impetus for the Iraq War 16 years ago. Syria is
his only current example, and we are not at war with Syria. This means his case
amounts solely to retaliation for perceived past wrongs. Every harm of these
conflicts is a sunk cost (not sorry for the pun) at this point. Ending the
alliance now does not recover them. In a similar vein, while Con argues that
this has harmed international perception of the US, disbanding this alliance does
not alter that perception. The US has bases in many Middle Eastern countries [11,
12]. We continue long-term occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan and continue to
be a substantial influence in both governments. The relationship has already
soured. Disbanding this alliance doesn’t fix it, it just adds another strain in
the region.
B. Missing
Reasoning/Evidence
Con assumes that Israel was solely responsible for pushing
the US to take certain actions. He claims that without Israel in the picture,
the US would not have interfered in the Middle East and all these countries would
be friendly with us. He never supports this claim, instead referencing
historical events that do not support this assumption.
The sinking of the USS Liberty was a tragedy, but it did not
result in US intervention in the Six-Day War.
C. Assumed Weight
11. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/06/07/qatar-hosts-largest-u-s-base-in-the-middle-east-despite-allegedly-funding-extremism-infographic/#1089afaa3dc7
12. https://www.americansecurityproject.org/national-security-strategy/u-s-bases-in-the-middle-east/
13. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/iraq-war-wmds-an-intelligence-failure-or-white-house-spin/?utm_term=.90e574ab441c
14. https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign+Relations/Israels+Foreign+Relations+since+1947/1947-1974/26+Statement+to+the+General+Assembly+by+Foreign+Mi.htm
15. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21405.pdf
16. https://www.britannica.com/event/Syrian-Civil-War
17. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-parts-of-censored-al-jazeera-documentary-on-pro-israeli-lobby-leaked-1.6432835
18. https://forward.com/news/407279/canary-missions-threat-grows-from-us-campuses-to-the-israeli-border/
19. https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/canary-mission/
20. https://forward.com/news/national/411355/revealed-canary-mission-blacklist-is-secretly-bankrolled-by-major-jewish/
21. https://www.jns.org/recent-report-highlights-anti-semitic-tactics-used-by-sjp-members-amid-bds-debate-at-george-washington-university/
22. https://www.csis.org/analysis/human-cost-syrian-civil-war
23. https://thediplomat.com/2013/03/why-the-iraq-war-was-right/
24. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-08-17/biggest-spenders-of-foreign-lobbying-in-the-us-comes-from-americas-closest-allies
25. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/mar/21/kosovo-template-for-disaster-libya, https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1983/france-libya-attack
26. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05/americas-allies-are-decline-heres-how-us-should-adjust/137608/
27. https://www.newsmax.com/patrickbuchanan/korea-chinam-trump-russia/2017/04/04/id/782515/
28. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/iran-yemen-saudi-arabia/571465/
29. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/american-troops-friendly-fire-iraq
30. http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/jerusalem-post-confirms-israel-knew-usaliberty-was-american/article/413296
31. https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
32. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05/americas-allies-are-decline-heres-how-us-should-adjust/137608/
33. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/world/middleeast/israel-trump-classified-intelligence-russia.html
34. https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/02/middleeast/yemen-lost-us-arms/
35. https://www.thoughtco.com/us-and-middle-east-since-1945-2353681
36. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140204-us-spies-on-israel/
37. https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/us/spying-on-allies-everybody-does-it/index.html
Con’s argument has 3 pieces. I’ll address each in turn. Before I start, two overviews.
Onto the direct rebuttal.
1. Israel directs US
policy in bad directions
There are three major problems with this argument.
A. No Actual Impact
Netanyahu was far from alone in pushing the view that there
were WMDs in Iraq (long after the intelligence was discredited), and the US had
its own independent reasons invading.[13]
Much as Con points to Hillary’s email, she’s not president,
and we’re not toppling Assad.
This is nothing but speculation. Just because influence
exists does not mean that it drives a given action. His efforts to lay the
responsibility for these conflicts solely at the feet of the Israelis don’t
stand up to muster, either. The Six Day War was initiated as a result of the
closure of the Straits of Tiran [14], the Iraq War was initiated by the US [15],
and the Syrian Civil War is an internal conflict [16]. Con would have us
believe that the US lacks autonomy to make huge foreign policy decisions, and
that we’re essentially puppets of Israel. He’s going to have to do a lot more
to support that.
Con’s impacts suffer from two key problems: ambiguity and
uniqueness.
On ambiguity, Con largely assumes that any influence is bad
regardless of the effect. He talks about pro-Israel lobbying groups, but he doesn’t
say why this is problematic aside from a brief non-sequitur about paying for a
wall. He doesn’t say why we should build a wall, why the money going to Israel
would otherwise go to the wall, or why we can’t afford a wall solely or even
chiefly because of foreign aid to Israel. Con presents Canary Mission as though
it directly represents Israel, failing to note that it is a fringe group run
and funded by Americans and condemned by many Israeli and American-based pro-Israel
advocacy groups.[17-19] It’s unclear how much influence Israel has over this group
(it’s mostly funded by Americans), and unclear the degree of harm it causes, as
at least some of the groups it posts about are antisemitic.[20, 21] Con also
assumes that the result of every conflict is negative. Toppling Assad could
have prevented the incredible loss of life and displacement that has occurred
since the start of the civil war in Syria.[22] Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator
who had oppressed his people for decades. Much as we mishandled the effort
(which was the fault of the US), the war itself was still justified solely for
the humanitarian purpose.[23]
On uniqueness. Con’s argument assumes that no other ally of
the US has ever been so harmful to us as Israel has – otherwise, he would
similarly be arguing for the rescinding of other alliances. Similarly, Con’s
argument assumes that this is a unilateral problem, with the Israelis imposing
harm on the US while the reverse is false. So, let’s test that.
If influence is the problem, the highest spenders among our
allies influencing US policy are South Korea, Japan, Canada, and Germany.[24]
If dragging the US into wars is the problem, both the Korean
and Vietnam Wars were fought on behalf of allies. NATO started conflicts in
Libya and Kosovo to pursue supposedly humanitarian ends as well (which,
incidentally, were supported by France for its personal interests).[25]
European dependence on the US military means that every future conflict will
require that we be dragged into it in order to succeed.[26] Our alliance with
South Korea puts us at a far greater likelihood of being dragged into war with
North Korea (again) and our work with Japan puts us at risk if they ever decide
to duke it out with China over the Senkaku Islands.[27] And how about our good
allies in Saudi Arabia, who have essentially made us complicit in their war
with Yemen?[28]
If friendly fire is the problem, the US has near-routine problems
with that.[29] It was also our choice to work with Israel, both to have the
incident occur and to cover it up, according to Con’s own sources.[30, 31]
If selling or giving away military intelligence or
technology sourced from our allies is the problem, then sales of Israeli cybersecurity
tech to Saudi Arabia and the delightful delivery of Israeli secret intelligence
to the Russians should count against us.[32, 33] We’ve also made a semi-regular
habit of shipping advanced weapons to countries who have slipped them to al
Qaeda and Iran, meaning that they exist as tangible harms to Israel right now.[34]
Con’s standards for removing us from this alliance are entirely
arbitrary, granting the US the ability to use any double standard it wishes to
void its long-standing allies. Why should any of our allies trust our long-term
alliances if we can turn our backs on the Israelis for acts we and others are
guilty of? Whether Con decides to provide a means to return to the alliance or
not, unilaterally declaring the end to a decades-long alliance and specifying
arbitrary and vague rules to return does nothing except frustrate our
relationships with other countries even further.
2. Israel is selling
military technology to China
Con argues that China is getting some military technology
that could be used to build missiles, and that Iran might get it. He doesn’t
explain why China’s receipt of that knowledge is damaging, gives no reason to
believe that China is ready and willing to sell it, and no reason to believe
that, if they did acquire it, the Iranian threat would grow. Again, his
argument is speculative: it might happen, and if it does happen, it might be
bad. If the goal was to goad US action against Iran, this is a seriously awful
way to do it. The country that would be most affected by Iran’s acquisition of
advanced military technology is Israel, as they are by far the closest target. Con
suggests that they’re actively putting themselves at greater risk to force intervention.
Again, nothing but speculation, and this time without any reasonable logic.
3. Israel is damaging
US international relations and is spying on us
Con solely asserts these. He assumes the US cannot make its
own enemies in the Middle East (we’ve been exceedingly good at that [35]) and that
the spying game is a one-way street (we spy on them, too[36] – most of our
allies spy on us and each other as well [37]). His claims, once again, range from speculation about US choices in the absence of Israel to double-standards used to invalidate Israel as an ally while keeping others that do the same.
11. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/06/07/qatar-hosts-largest-u-s-base-in-the-middle-east-despite-allegedly-funding-extremism-infographic/#1089afaa3dc7
12. https://www.americansecurityproject.org/national-security-strategy/u-s-bases-in-the-middle-east/
13. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/iraq-war-wmds-an-intelligence-failure-or-white-house-spin/?utm_term=.90e574ab441c
14. https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign+Relations/Israels+Foreign+Relations+since+1947/1947-1974/26+Statement+to+the+General+Assembly+by+Foreign+Mi.htm
15. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21405.pdf
16. https://www.britannica.com/event/Syrian-Civil-War
17. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-parts-of-censored-al-jazeera-documentary-on-pro-israeli-lobby-leaked-1.6432835
18. https://forward.com/news/407279/canary-missions-threat-grows-from-us-campuses-to-the-israeli-border/
19. https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/canary-mission/
20. https://forward.com/news/national/411355/revealed-canary-mission-blacklist-is-secretly-bankrolled-by-major-jewish/
21. https://www.jns.org/recent-report-highlights-anti-semitic-tactics-used-by-sjp-members-amid-bds-debate-at-george-washington-university/
22. https://www.csis.org/analysis/human-cost-syrian-civil-war
23. https://thediplomat.com/2013/03/why-the-iraq-war-was-right/
24. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-08-17/biggest-spenders-of-foreign-lobbying-in-the-us-comes-from-americas-closest-allies
25. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/mar/21/kosovo-template-for-disaster-libya, https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1983/france-libya-attack
26. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05/americas-allies-are-decline-heres-how-us-should-adjust/137608/
27. https://www.newsmax.com/patrickbuchanan/korea-chinam-trump-russia/2017/04/04/id/782515/
28. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/iran-yemen-saudi-arabia/571465/
29. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/22/american-troops-friendly-fire-iraq
30. http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/jerusalem-post-confirms-israel-knew-usaliberty-was-american/article/413296
31. https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
32. https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/05/americas-allies-are-decline-heres-how-us-should-adjust/137608/
33. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/world/middleeast/israel-trump-classified-intelligence-russia.html
34. https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/02/middleeast/yemen-lost-us-arms/
35. https://www.thoughtco.com/us-and-middle-east-since-1945-2353681
36. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140204-us-spies-on-israel/
37. https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/us/spying-on-allies-everybody-does-it/index.html
Round 3
Thanks again to Pro for providing solid, well-written
points. I would like to, however, point out some egregious framing and false
presumptions that are being propagated against my position, however. He is
purposing that I in some manner have double standards with regard to our
alliance with Israel. I am and have always been anti-interventionist. Pro very
clearly attempted to slander me and frame me as having a purely anti-Israel
stance and mentioning that I would maintain the same alliances with all allies
that currently break our trust as Israel so obviously has. This is not the
case, and you will not find once instance of me mentioning an alliance with any
other nation in the debate. So, I ask that the readers discard these views for
being the baseless and egregious accusations that they are.
[2] http://theredelephants.com/banned-undercover-investigation-shows-israel-spying-us-citizens-paying-off-us-politicians-launching-smear-campaigns-us-students/
[3] https://fair.org/home/media-end-cia-training-syrian-rebels-al-qaeda/
[4] http://auphr.org/index.php/news/5100-palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2012
[5] https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
[6] https://www.haaretz.com/1.4764706
[7] https://www.jstor.org/stable/4121509?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
[8] https://sunlightfoundation.com/2011/09/22/palestinian-statehood-may-be-affected-us-lobbying/
[9] https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/437051-pavlich-trump-and-obama-officials-agree-theres-a-crisis-at-the-border
[10] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-now-says-border-wall-could-cost-little-15-billion-n945346
[11]https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/revealed-canary-mission-blacklist-is-secretly-bankrolled-by-major-jewish-federation-1.6528545
[12] https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-npw-analysis-intl/index.html
[13] https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/ISR
[14] https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/domino-theory
[15] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/references-to-jews-in-the-koran
[16] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/01/14/south-korea-north-korea-relations-no-enemy-designation/2578073002/
[17] https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
[18] https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china
[19] https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Politics/Rubin-article.htm
Also, I’d like to mention that your point of the impact on
other countries is irrelevant for this debate in the manner that you have posed
it. This is for two separate reasons. The first was phrasing it was “if the effect
on Israel is negative, it harms Pro’s case (I assume you meant Con)”. This
argument is utterly weighted towards you, as you saw in the first round that I
suggested stopping funding. Taking money away is never a good thing, so I argue
this point is irrelevant. The second reason this point should be removed is
that it makes no sense. This debate is based on the perspective of America.
America’s interests should hold primacy when they decide how to spend their
money, and the foreign power’s wishes should be irrelevant. (Before you accuse
me of double-standards again, I’m almost always against foreign aid). What
would make sense for this debate is for you to prove that we would suffer from
our loss of their alliance.
In terms of re-allying ourselves with Israel, they must stop
attempting to drag us into wars and keep troops in the Middle East. I will
further elaborate on how they do this in my later points. Sorry for the wordy
response, but I felt it was necessary to clarify these points. Onto the rebuttal
round 2. Rebuttal to point 1
My case doesn’t point to retaliation for past
wrongs. I kept mentioning the theme that they keep dragging us into wars or at
least attempting to. I was using this as an example of why we should rescind
the alliance, at least temporarily. I was proving that throughout history, they
have continuously had us fight their wars and that none of the examples I gave
were merely isolated incidents. While I agree that we are not at war with
Syria, Israel is the reason that we are keeping troops there[1]. As I stated
earlier, Hillary Clinton stated that toppling Assad was the best way to keep
Israel safe[2]. Then, we handed over a billion dollars to fund Syrian rebels,
ISIS, and Al-Qaeda in Syria[3]. So to say we are not at war might be partially correct,
but we have maintained troop presence and paid billions of dollars purely for
Israel’s interests once again. You state that the positive sentiments will not
return when we rescind the alliance, but that is purely conjecture. I believe
that it is rational to assume that stopping funding and support of a state that
continuously takes its neighbors’ lands will do good for Middle Eastern
perception of America[4].
I do not say that all Middle Eastern countries
would be friendly with us without Israel in the picture anywhere. I just stated
that our intervention in the Middle East has caused anti-American hatred and
one of our main reasons for going there is to protect Israel[2][3]. You are
correct in saying that the sinking of the USS Liberty did not result in our
involvement in the Six-Day War. While this is true, it was an obvious attempt to
have us enter the war. They knew that the ship was American three hours before
the attack[5]. In terms of our own reasons for attacking Iraq, your source 13
just merely that Bush pushed for the war to attain “political goals”. This was
an ambiguous reference, and I am not sure what that means. I
pointed to Hillary’s email because at the time, she was Secretary of State and
the Obama administration funneled billions of dollars to the Syrian
rebels[2][3].
I don’t see how the beginning of the Six-Day War is relevant, the
only relevant part is that they firebombed our ship knowing that it was
American[5]. The Iraq War was initiated mostly due to Bush’s neo-conservative
advisors, many of whom were Jewish, who were members of PNAC[6]. This think
tank has goals to shift US policy towards creating democracies across the world
through intervention by the United States[7]. The Syrian War is an internal
conflict as you state, but it is one in which we are involved. We donated money to their
rebels and maintain troop presence over there[1][3]. I do believe that we have
autonomy to make foreign policy decisions, but you obviously doubt the power of
lobbying congressmen. Palestinians have no lobby that even remotely matches the
power of Israel, spending around 1/13th of the money Israel does[8].
So, my point is that AIPAC is able to stack congress by supporting pro-Israel
congressmen. Remember the direct quote from Congressman Jim Moran, “If you have the support of AIPAC,
more often than not you’re going to win[2].
Foreign influence is not always a bad thing.
When it comes to foreign funding, I believe that it is typically a bad thing. We
have a crisis at the border[9], and we need a wall and other expansions of
security in order to help solve the problem. I think that if we have terrible
emergencies at home that need to be taken care of, then they should take primacy
over Israel’s desire for military subsidies. This is one of a plethora of
problems that we are facing in America among others such as a debt surpassing
our GDP. Somehow, we still find money to pay Israel billions every year. Estimates for the border wall cost are between $5 billion and $25 billion and we are
paying Israel $38 billion over the next ten years[10]. This is why I know that funding
of Israel is at least part of the problem of why it hasn’t been under
construction.
You state that the Canary Mission is run by Americans as though that inherently means anything. They live in America and their companies
operate in America, but that doesn’t mean they are always operating in America’s
interests. The Canary Mission is indeed funded by domestic Jewish groups with
the intention of silencing activists of BDS and other pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel
movements. While some of these individuals are terrible, it is immoral to dox
students and preventing them from ever finding jobs. The money is funneled, but
it has been traced through financial statements. The money even makes its way
to the Central Fund of Israel[11]. So, I think it is beyond doubt that Israelis
are involved in this funneling.
In your rebuttal, you didn’t mention whether or
not Assad was a good leader and there was significant moral basis for the civil
war. You just mentioned that there would not have been so much displacement and
death. Assad is an individual that might finally be able to bring stability to
Syria as, backed with allies Russia and Iran, he has help eliminate terrorist
threat ISIS[12]. Also, you state that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator and
he oppressed his people. This is true, but then you make the false assumption
that our entry of the war was justified for humanitarian purposes. It is not
the universal duty for us to send thousands of brave young men and women to die
whenever there is an imperfect leader in the Middle East. This should be up the NATO, the UN, or some other international body. You also state that
we mishandled the effort, which you didn’t back with any further arguments.
Uniqueness is not an issue, as I
have clarified earlier. However, I find that redaction of an alliance with
Israel would be the utmost priority. Let us go through the aid that these
countries receive that you state spend more money influencing us. A quick
search has shown that South Korea receives $775,534, Japan receives $140,237,
Canada gets $31,704,675, Germany gets $559,587, but we give Israel a staggering
$3,191,073,062[13]. In other words, Israel receives over 96x the amount of all
four of those countries combined every year. So, when you ask why I am more
worried about Israeli influence, it is because of the costly effects of their
influence. They aren’t asking for trade deals or anything along those lines,
they want money that we could use to pay off our debt or fund domestic programs.
You bring up the Korean and
Vietnam wars, which I find interesting. They were both fought in the Cold War,
which was an ideological battle between the Soviet Union’s communists and
America’s capitalists. We did this to attempt to stop the Domino Theory, in
which we believed that when some countries fell to communism, many more would.
We believed this would eventually end in the destruction of our way of life, so
we fought against communism, not for any economic merit that south Vietnam
provided[14]. This ideological battle cost us over $5.8 trillion[15]. This is
eerily similar to the situation in the Middle East. The fight between Israel
and its Middle Eastern neighbors is primarily fueled by religion. The Quran [5.51]
for example, says to “not take the Jews and Christians for friends”[15]. It is
quite clear based on examples such as this (of which a plethora are shown on
the source give) prove that there are incompatibilities between the religions,
which will, as I commonly state, lead to an endless stream of conflict. We as a
country should not become involved in conflicts that never end half-way across
the world.
I don’t agree with your point that South Korea is more likely to
bring us into a war, since their relations are better than they have been since
the Korean War[16]. We can agree that European dependence on our military is a
problem. If we took away military money from Israel, this problem may be
abated. They would recognize that they may not be able to rely on millions of
dollars anymore and they would fund their own militaries if they wanted
protection. I love your source number 27 that discusses the potential war between
Japan and China. The title of the article is “We Must Reassess Alliances that Drag
Us Into War”. I couldn’t agree more. This is exactly what we are doing right
now in this debate. If you would care to debate our alliance with these other
countries in the future, I would be happy to. However, mentioning that we have
a few other terrible alliances does not vindicate Israel for what it has done. Any
bad alliance should be severed.
You briefly mention friendly fire being common.
This occasionally happens under stress, as your source 29 points out. This was
not the case with the USS Liberty, as they had the flag flying and its identity
was confirmed based on this fact. Plus, the source only says that President
Johnson was complicit in the coverup to maintain positive public opinion of Israel[17].
In your source 33, you discussed us giving intelligence to the Russians. This
intelligence was related to fighting terrorism. Do you think that we should
have less countries fighting terrorists? As I stated earlier, Russia helped
fight ISIS in Syria, so they have proven to be an asset in counter-terrorism
efforts[12]. Also, you said earlier in your response that China might go to
war with our ally Japan, then try justifying Israel’s sale of missile technology
to China. You said they might drag us into that war, then justify making them a
larger threat. You mention that we gave weapons to a country who then gave
these weapons to Israel’s enemies and terrorists. This was absolutely not the
intention when giving it to the original country. Israel, however, gave that
information directly to our potential future enemy[18]. To conclude this point
and counter your assumptions, I must say that these are not arbitrary measures.
Dragging the US into wars, asking for billions of dollars every year, and
funding doxing campaigns against anti-Israel advocates is a tragedy. No other
country exploits our country to the degree that Israel has, which I believe I
have provided substantial evidence to prove.
Point 2 Rebuttal
There are very few points given
here. My point is based off of evidence you provided in source 33, in which you
stated a potential future war with China. This is precisely why this
information could be dangerous. My source also states that this isn’t the first
time Israel aided the Chinese militarily. In the 1990s, Israel was caught in a
decade-long funneling of US secrets to Japan(much worse than a one-time
incident with us and Russia). They also had a contract to supply
Python III missiles to China[18]. I will not argue too much further on the Iran
point, as it is based off of conjecture. They are one of the threats in the region
that I previously proved was attempting to get military information from China.
Israel would like us to enter the country with troops to prevent action by the
Iranian government. I
believe this is reasonable logic, although you disagree
for some reason.
Point 3 Rebuttal
I am aware that we are able to
make our own enemies in the Middle East. I merely stated that our Israel support
over Arabs occurred in the Cold War, and this is a cause of resentment in the
Arab world[19]. You say that allies spy on each other. This is another true
statement, but none do it to the degree of Israel. These other countries don’t
dox our students. In fact, we are often overwhelmed by the amount of Israel’s
spies and can’t effectively counter them[2].
So, now that I have proven that my opponent’s presumption of
a double-standard is false, it would seem that my opponent’s argument has
little left to stand on. He mentioned foreign lobbies paying more money, yet he
neglected the fact that the four highest spending countries combined received less than 1/96 the aid of Israel[13]. He also seems to justify our alliance with Israel
by pointing out flaws in our relationships with other countries. These are
entirely different debates to be had, and perhaps we should not be allies with
them either. Why my opponent thought that I believed all other allies were
perfect, I do not know. It is not our duty as Americans to fund other countries with billions of dollars to fight their endless wars. The
ideologically-driven Cold War costed us trillions of dollars, and I don’t wish for us to
fight another ideological war but for a different country this time[15].
[2] http://theredelephants.com/banned-undercover-investigation-shows-israel-spying-us-citizens-paying-off-us-politicians-launching-smear-campaigns-us-students/
[3] https://fair.org/home/media-end-cia-training-syrian-rebels-al-qaeda/
[4] http://auphr.org/index.php/news/5100-palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2012
[5] https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
[6] https://www.haaretz.com/1.4764706
[7] https://www.jstor.org/stable/4121509?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
[8] https://sunlightfoundation.com/2011/09/22/palestinian-statehood-may-be-affected-us-lobbying/
[9] https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/437051-pavlich-trump-and-obama-officials-agree-theres-a-crisis-at-the-border
[10] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-now-says-border-wall-could-cost-little-15-billion-n945346
[11]https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/revealed-canary-mission-blacklist-is-secretly-bankrolled-by-major-jewish-federation-1.6528545
[12] https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-npw-analysis-intl/index.html
[13] https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/ISR
[14] https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/domino-theory
[15] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/references-to-jews-in-the-koran
[16] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/01/14/south-korea-north-korea-relations-no-enemy-designation/2578073002/
[17] https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html
[18] https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china
[19] https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Politics/Rubin-article.htm
No new overviews this round. My focus will be on counter-rebuttal and clarifying the stories of our two cases. Next round, I will evaluate them against each other.
1. Conflict and Leverage
Con treats my arguments as, effectively, supporting the
status quo. In doing so, Con fails to address both my case and the basic point
being made here:
With leverage, there exists the means to modify actions.
Without leverage, those means disappear.
So, when Con argues that the status quo provision of aid has
not modified Israel’s behavior, I agree. The problem is that these provisions
have, essentially, been blank checks. The US has not previously attempted to
use their military aid as a tool to affect Israeli policy. The US could still
do so. Clearly, Israel values that support, so altering it incentivizes them to
behave differently.
Con’s only response to this is to say that this won’t happen
because pro-Israel organizations ensure that the amount of money we send to
Israel doesn’t drop. Two problems with this.
Firstly, fiat exists in debates for a reason. Our aim is not
just to discuss what could happen,
but also what should. Both I and my
opponent have defined clear positions to compare two worlds, one where the
Israel-US alliance ends and all aid stops, and one where the aid continues and
can be actively modified. We can’t argue about what those worlds would look
like if we’re stuck arguing about the procedural votes involved in making those
worlds possible.
Secondly, if we’re talking about which of our plans is more
likely to pass through Congress, Con’s is far less likely to do so. It is
absolute and completely disregards the interests of Israel and its supporters.
Those pro-Israel groups have absolutely no reason to allow his policy to pass
because it severely alters our relationship with their country. My plan only
allows for smaller changes to the military financial support they receive. If
this debate does involve feasibility, Con’s plan is far less likely to be
implemented than mine, meaning he loses all his solvency while I only lose some
of mine.
Con talks about anti-BDS legislation, which is non-unique.
Con isn’t stopping anti-BDS legislation, and neither am I. Even if we ended our
alliance and military support for Israel, these policies will likely still
exist, as the very same Jewish groups that lobbied for them to pass will still
exist. Con isn’t reducing their influence, so Con isn’t changing any other
facet of how they function.
Finally, Con introduces a brand-new facet to his case, and
this can only hurt him. He states that “they must fix their obviously
expansionist policies if they want us to begin aiding them again.” This is such
a vague standard that I hardly know where to begin. To make this simpler, let’s
assume Israel is expansionist (a big assumption in its own right).
Con does not specify what will return to them if they alter
course. Will they receive the same amount of military aid they do now? Some of
it? More of it? Will we re-start our alliance? Will there be new terms? Which
country gets to define those?
Con provides no specifics on the milestones that Israel must
meet in order to achieve this uncertain outcome. Do they have to stop defending
settlements in the West Bank? Do they have to force the people living there to
abandon those settlements? Do they have to surrender any and all land gained
since 1946, including the Golan Heights?
Con provides no other conditions, despite absolutely none of
his case being about Israeli expansionism. Con’s metrics for returning their
support have nothing to do with past wrongs done to the US, yet apparently
those are the basis for ending the alliance and support in the first place. Why
is Con using a different basis for returning that support to them?
Con includes no promises of a long-term deal stemming from
any change in Israeli policy. What reason does Israel have to take any action
if the US can simply decide to remove funds and support based on arbitrary
problems it perceives in the future?
Even if we assume all of this is settled, Con includes no
provision of funds in case of either financial or military emergencies in
Israel and his case only allows for a return of funds after meeting an
incredibly high threshold. Con’s case cannot bring about gradual change in
Israeli policy, and he provides absolutely no reason to believe that Israel
would ever make dramatic changes to the way it deals with its settlements and
other land holdings. He sets a standard that will never be met and claims it
functions as leverage when all it actually does is function as a slap in the
face. Con’s creating a pressure cooker, and no reason to believe that the
stress he’s generating will ever be alleviated, yet he tells you that all will
end well. On my next point, I will explain why it won’t.
2. Israeli Benefits
Con makes two responses here, and one is a big mistake. I’ll
come back to that.
Con argues that Iran and Syria are not threats to Israel
because they signed the NPT. Even if they were abiding by the treaty (both Iran
and Syria are reported to be building nuclear capabilities despite having
signed it [38¸39]), my point included chemical and biological weapons, to which
the NPT does not apply. Even though they acceded to the Chemical Weapons
Convention, Syria still manufactures and uses them.[40] Both countries have
declared chemical weapons production facilities.[41] Both countries present
credible threats for the use of biological weapons with active facilities and
capabilities available.[42, 43] This means the threat of nuclear, chemical and
biological warfare against them continues to grow. That’s going to be important
in a minute.
Onto the mistake. Con argues several times that Israel is
fully capable of outdistancing all its neighbors militarily, ensuring that they
can continue to exercise their military might without US support. I’m honestly
shocked he’s admitting to this because it’s far worse for his case. Con fully
nullifies his own solvency: if Israel can still do whatever it wants militarily
in the region, then they can and will continue to pursue their own ends in the
absence of US support. Even if this knocks out my solvency on leverage, this is
absolutely devastating to Con’s case because the entirety of his argument rests
on how bad an actor Israel is. If Israel continues to be a bad actor, then all
Con could possibly achieve with his case is the benefit of not being tied
directly to their actions, which is kind of hard to avoid when: a) we have
bases all over the Middle East, b) we are wholly invested in the success of
Iraq and Afghanistan, and c) we’ve been allied with them for decades and
supplied them with the means to build their military might. I’ve said this
several times already, but other countries will always perceive us as tied to
the fortunes of Israel, regardless of whether we distance ourselves from them
now.
But, to be clear, Israel will not continue to be a bad
actor. They will be a far worse one. Con is taking away their most substantial
lifeline, a force that includes a massive nuclear umbrella and the strongest
military in the world as deterrents. Israel is going to feel the threat of
those nuclear, chemical and biological weapons all the more in the absence of
US backup, and they have a history of both invading other countries and
destroying facilities to ameliorate these problems. Con’s case makes them
desperate, and desperation is far likelier to push them to take rash actions
against major threats like Syria and Iran, the effects of which will range far
beyond Israel alone. They are already threatening both nations, though they
have yet to take action.[44, 45] War in the Middle East will affect the globe,
and Con is creating an environment where that is far more likely to happen.
3. Regional Benefits
My previous responses show the flaw in Con’s responses here.
Even if Israel remains the strong horse in the region, the perception on both
their part and on the part of the countries around them that their status has
weakened is sufficient to bring about the harms I’ve already discussed. Beyond
that, Con drops that this weakens the perception of the US, turning us into an
untrustworthy ally in the eyes of all our allies. As I stated last round, this
damages our relationships with every one of our allies, which may lead many of
them to distance themselves from the US in the process.
One other point I do feel the need to mention here as well
is why we care about the regional effects. Saying that the only element in this
equation we care about is the US is incredibly short-sighted. The economic
disaster that would result from a further destabilized Middle East would be damaging
in its own right, but the subsequent impacts on global security would be
devastating. The more the US pulls out of the region, the more other world
powers like China will rush in to fill the power vacuum, increasing their
control over global energy reserves and leading to further and more damaging
trade wars.[46] Even if you don’t care about the effects on other countries, we
are45 still part of the world they inhabit, and we are still affected by their
choices. Any chance at this kind of instability far outweighs the benefits of
avoiding a local conflict or two.
4. U.S. Benefits
Finally, we turn to what the US stands to lose by exiting
this relationship. Con argues that Israel’s personal interest in the conflicts
invalidates the benefits of their support, but this is absurd. Motive doesn’t
obviate the objective help they provide. It doesn’t matter if Israel had its
own reasons for supporting the invasion of Iraq – it was our war, and they made
it a lot easier to run it. They used their own resources to support us, doing
so at their expense. That’s the reality.
On trade relationships, Con seems to be missing my point.
Whether we affect these trade relationships directly through his policy is
irrelevant – he’s rescinding a
decades’-long alliance and unilaterally withdrawing support without any
discussion or a clear means to retrieve them. How, exactly, does Con think
Israel will respond to that loss? Does he honestly think they won’t retaliate?
This is one form of retaliation: restrictions on trade. Our own president has
been known to do that recently, and Bibi could take a page from his book.[47]
Economic backlash is a probable outcome of severing ties like this, meaning
that the loss of these economic resources is a harm of Con’s case.
On trust, Con’s claim that we “will no longer need this
so-called ‘alliance’” if/when we leave the Middle East behind is incredibly
short-sighted. Like I said before, Con provides no reason to believe that were
are abandoning our bases,[48] does not acknowledge that we are still firmly
tethered to the fortunes of Iraq and Afghanistan,[49] neglects to mention our
continued occupation of those two countries,[50, 51] and assumes that any
withdrawal in the short-term is permanent (because the Middle East is just so
stable and unimportant, isn’t it?).[52]
On expense, this is very simple. It’s been Con’s argument
that we’re dumping a whole lot of money on Israel in the form of military
support, yet we’re recouping 95% of the money they receive. To be clear, that’s
95% of $3 billion, leaving just $150 million, a drop in the proverbial bucket.
Considering so much of that “military industrial complex” in Israel is
dedicated to assisting us in our own military efforts abroad, I would say Con
is being more than a little hasty in declaring it to be so damaging. That
support is responsible for trillions of dollars in savings during conflicts across
the Middle East over the past decades. Con can keep trying to sell this story
that Israel is solely responsible for the Iraq War or for all anti-American
sentiments in the Middle East, but as I showed last round, that story is overly
simplistic at best and outright false at worst. This support, what we have both
directly and indirectly received from them over the years, is a clear and
unmitigated benefit. We can’t get that benefit by transferring this support to
other countries, and we certainly won’t get it if we give that support to no
other country. Simply paying down our debt does nothing to cut our costs, and
as our defense budget will have to balloon without this support, Con is
guaranteeing that our debt will increase in the long term.
On intelligence, Con is so fixated on the failure over WMDs
that he’s ignored all the evidence of useful intelligence I presented. Avoiding
improved explosive devices, addressing unconventional weapons and
cyber-threats, counter-terrorism, the list goes on. Weigh Con’s single piece of
intelligence, which was likely twisted to suit Netanyahu’s interests anyway,
against the deluge of actionable information the US has received from Israel
over the years, and you see just how much this assistance matters.
Finally, on military technology. Con concedes that their
military technology is advanced enough to be effective in any conflict, and
that’s the point. The value I’m talking about here is to the US, which has
developed incredible military technologies working in concert with Israel. Prominent among
these is an amazing missile defense technology called “The Arrow,” which has
provided important technical and operational data for similar systems being
developed in the US and is being directly incorporated into US anti-ballistic capabilities
in Europe.[53] Defensive systems like this are what ensure that missiles
launched by Hamas don’t do harm to the Israelis. There are many other similarly
important technologies that could not have been developed without Israel’s
assistance,[54] and any future advancements will be lost if we rescind our
alliance.
Round 4
For the conclusion round, no new points are allowed to be
asserted as part of an argument. New arguments may be used only to rebut new
claims asserted in the third round. In this round, I shall iterate my main
points that I wish everyone to take away as well as include a rebuttal of round
three.
Wars:
The Iraq War, for which some basis for invading was based
off of doctored Israeli intelligence, has added over $1 trillion to our debt[14][15].
This war also resulted in the death of 4,541 brave American patriots[16].
I
sraeli planes bombed the USS Liberty knowing that it was
our ship three hours before the attack. It was covered up to preserve positive
public opinion of Israel[17].
We are involved in Syria because of Israel’s interests.
According to Hillary Clinton’s emails, the best way to ensure safety for Israel
is to topple Assad[2]. This is why they sent billions of dollars to Syrian
rebels and ISIS under the Obama administration[27]. Israel is also the reason
we are keeping troops in Syria[18].
We will continue to be entrenched in unending wars based on
ideology, similar to the Cold War. The only difference is that these wars are
based on religious incompatibilities[19]. The cold war cost us $5.8 trillion
over 45 years[20]. We don’t want another ideological war to fight on behalf of
another country.
Our funding of Israel comes in the form of military weapons.
The military industrial-complex incites wars to make money off weapon sales[21].
Influence:
My opponent stated that Israel doesn’t lobby as much as
Germany, South Korea, Canada, and Japan, yet Israel receives over 96x the money
of all four combined[22].
AIPAC, the main Israel lobby, pays millions of dollars to
stack Congress[23]. Israel spies on US citizens and doxxes college students to
prevent them from getting jobs[2]. Anti-BDS legislation is an unprecedented
infringement on the private sector that prevents boycotts, divestments, and
sanctions of Israel by private companies through fear of losing contracts and receiving
denouncement[24].
My opponent says that China may be a future enemy in round
two, yet he doesn’t condemn Israel for sending them US secrets for a decade and
having a missile technology contract with China[11]. Pro condemns the US giving
information on terrorists to Russia in round 2, although it would help fighting
global terrorism. Israel’s arming of our potential future enemy is unlikely to
promote world peace.
Israel is more wealthy than their neighbors and they have
the 8th best military in the world[4][25]. They also have a nuclear
program that will deter future attacks[9][10]. So, we shouldn’t fund a military
that is already one of the best in the world, especially if they can afford to
maintain it.
Harms our reputation:
Cold War spending on Israel and our continued presence in
the Middle East has been very damaging to our reputation in these countries[26].
Final rebuttal:
Point 1
My opponent states that an incentive system could be used as
leverage for their actions, but this is not possible for the next eight to nine
years[1]. We have given them a blank check, as you have noted, which is
something that we both disagree upon. Since we are locked into a ten-year $38 billion
deal, that is not an option. We disagree, however, on the methodology of
changing their actions. In the meantime, it would be best if we threaten to
rescind our alliance to shape their military actions with neighbors and
mistreatment of US citizens through the Canary Mission[2][3]. The lobbying would
have to be hindered in some manner to be able to accomplish this. One way could
be to abolish lobbying, which is something I have always been a fan of. It
eliminates distributed costs and concentrated benefits. This would also be able
to stop unconstitutional anti-BDS legislation from being enforced[5]. You mention
that this is not unique legislation, but your failure to cite any examples
brings this claim into question.
My future does involve severing ties with Israel completely,
it is ONLY if they do not adjust their actions. It would involve stopping a
regular supply of funds, with only a small potential for emergency funds.
However, as we have both proved, they don’t need it. Their GDP per capita
proves they are much richer than their main threats my opponent references:
Iran and Syria[4]. You mention that your proposition is more likely to be
passed through Congress. As the American public becomes more aware of the facts
I have delineated, this may not be the case. Nobody knows what information will
come out in the next ten years that could alter our perception of the alliance.
Israel is expansionist since they have increased their land
through mainly wars[6][7]. Since you ask for clarification, Israel will receive
no aid unless they are in immediate danger of destruction and they prove to be
a better asset that doesn’t dox students or doesn’t intentionally drag us into
more wars. America and only America will define these terms, as we are paying
for this and it should operate primarily in our interests. Isrealis don’t need
to abandon settlements, as it would be immoral to force settlers out of their
homes. The deed has already been done, but any further expansion would lead to
immediate revocation of any alliance that we would possess at the time. This is
one of many items that need to be done despite what my opponent states. I also
mention the spying, lobbying us into war, and selling American secrets, which
must also be fixed. The expansion isn’t the main offense, just one of many.
Their expansion just causes extra resentment and war, which is why their
expansionism must be abated. I also do not agree to a long-term policy as you
would like since it would allow them to revert back to their negative behaviors
with much less fear of punishment. Con would like us to appease Israel and
allow for gradual change. How long will this change he proposes take? Will
that
ever happen? Certainly not in a world in which he allows them to continue
lobbying and walk all over of best wishes.
Point 2
My opponent mentions that Israel has basis to fear biological
and chemical weapons attacks. However, nuclear weapons are very effective deterrents
against using such weapons, and Israel has a large stockpile of nuclear
weapons[8][9][10]. I don’t really know why you are shocked at my point that
Israel could still defend itself. That is all it could do under my plan: defend
itself. Without the US supporting Israel, surrounding states would not allow
expansion and would retaliate against any future Isreali aggression without
fear of US intervention. You mentioned in round one that we make up a third of
their military budget. If we take that away, it would be much more difficult to
expand its borders. It is still wealthier than the other nations, but it
couldn’t infringe on its neighbors’ territories without a US alliance and
money. You then make many claims about potential interests in the region without
explaining their significance and providing no sources. Finally, you then state
that Israel has a “history of… invading other countries”, and you dare claim
they aren’t expansionist.
Points 3&4
In terms of regional benefits, this argument is based on
conjecture. With Israel’s strong nuclear program, we can guess that it will
deter attacks against them[8]. Con mentions China being a threat in the region,
which is a country that Israel has strengthened militarily[11]. I would like to
quickly summarize your fourth point. You mention that Israel may impose trading
sanctions. We are a huge trading partner for Israel and they need us much more
than we need them. We are 37% of their exports and 11% of their imports. They
are .82% of our exports and .95% of our imports[12][13]. They would need as much
trade as possible without our military aid, so this point seems rather
unlikely. Also,again, you seem fine with being complicit in subsidizing the
military industrial complex. I don’t care where the money is going, it is a
subsidy at the cost of regular Americans and Israel is getting free military
technology. The military-industrial complex has incentive to incite wars[13].
Israel’s information on IEDs wouldn’t be needed if we weren’t in Iraq because
of them. Also, the man who lied about WMDs (Netanyahu), as you admitted, is
currently the prime minister of Israel. Why should we entrust billions of
dollars with such a deceptive individual who shows no regard for American
lives? Finally, you mention that we will lose out on military technology if
they no longer trust us. This is conjecture, but I believe that if we spent that
$3.8 billion directly on military research every year, we would probably have
the same if not better military technology today.
I would like to thank my opponent one last time for debating
me on this subject. Although neither of us are likely to change our minds, I’m
glad that we could have a civil debate that has allowed us both to become more
nuanced on this important subject. I look forward to having future debates with
Pro if possible. I would also like to thank those who took the time to read
this debate, and I truly hope that I have changed your perception of our
alliance with Israel.
Sources:
My goal this round will be to crystallize what happened in
this debate. There will be limited rebuttal, but I believe my sources from the
previous rounds are more than sufficient to support the statements I’ll be
making here.
To start, a couple of things to note regarding this topic:
This is the topic my opponent chose. I had no hand in the
selection of this topic. He could have been much more general, arguing (for example)
that any alliance that does more harm than good to the US should be
discontinued. He chose not to do so. He could have, at the very least,
presented a case in his first round that included the entirety of his argument.
Instead, he has chosen to expand his case all the way into the final round,
adding new planks even now. I’ll point to specific examples, but all of them
are incredibly abusive.
Similarly, Con could have chosen to specify that the sole
impacts that matter are those that relate to the US. The idea that the US
should stop caring about the impacts its decisions have on other countries is
just baffling – the value of an alliance does not just apply to the US, nor
should that value necessarily be elevated above all others. Con conceded in Round
3 that these would put him at a disadvantage, and I agree: ignoring how affecting
trade and military relations in one of the most volatile regions in the world
is a big problem.
I will come back to these points in my voting issues.
1. How does this
alliance/support affect the US?
To answer this question, we first need to have some idea of
what will change for the US if the alliance ends. I’ve explained multiple times
how we are ensconced in the Middle East, and much as it has been Con’s
assertion that Israel is the reason for that (I’ll come back to this), it
really doesn’t matter. We aren’t closing down our bases, we are continuing to
occupy and advise in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we have large monetary interests
in the Middle East (oil, anyone?). Con’s only response to all this is that
we’re withdrawing slowly from Iraq and Afghanistan, which isn’t really a
response. We’re still there, just with less of our forces. Con provides no
reason to believe we’re pulling out anytime soon and provides no reason why his
case would expedite that process if we were.
A lot of Con’s case has been predicated on the notion that
the US will pull out of the Middle East because we will have no reason to be
there anymore. This is flat out wrong. As my source [13] shows, we have our own
interests in the region, and we were actively selling the Iraq invasion
alongside the Israelis. Hell, Con’s own example of the USS Liberty is an
example of a massive cover-up that the US actively participated in. The notion
that the US has no personal stakes in the region (or Israel) whatsoever is
completely false, and yet Con’s case relies on that assumption. The only way US
policy changes is if our perception of the Middle East changes, and Con
provides no reason to believe that it would.
This leads into the key issues.
A. Monetary Effects
We are still in the Middle East and are we likely to be there
for the foreseeable future. Con concedes all the monetary benefits of having
Israel as an ally so long as we are present in the region. He concedes the $6-20
billion from trade. He concedes the trillions of dollars Israel saves us in
deployment, housing and outfitting. He concedes that 95% of what they receive
in aid comes right back to us, effectively negating the costs of aid.
His sole point against this is to say that Israel is
dragging us into wars, which cost us money, though that has two problems. One, it requires that
there’s a war that they will drag us into, and Con has pointed to none (even
his example of Syria is a clear instance where the US has largely stayed
absent). Two, it requires that Con establish why we would not enter that war if
it wasn’t for Israel, which he has not done. Con has never explained why Israel
is the linchpin in this assumed future conflict, and therefore why the US would
neglect that conflict in the absence of our alliance. His entire response rests
on a set of potential impacts without real world examples.
B. Military Effects
Con concedes the reduced requirement of deployment (meaning
reduced loss of life), better management of improvised explosive devices,
addressing unconventional weapons, and handling cyber-threats, all of which
amount to innumerable lives saved. And that’s without mentioning their
intelligence capabilities and military support.
Con places the blame for all US loss of life in the Middle
East on Israel. If the US makes a poor decision that results in a loss of life,
that’s on Israel for getting us there in the first place. If the US decides to
stay longer or increase troop levels in the region, that’s on Israel. No
decision to use US troops is ever the fault of the US under Con’s view. We’ve
been in Iraq for almost 2 decades, yet Israel still owns that conflict. Imagine
that. Israel is not responsible for the moves the US military makes, and much
less responsible for its missteps. The loss of life is ours to bear, not
theirs.
2. How does this
alliance/support affect the international community?
The perception that comes with altering an alliance is
essential to this debate, and Con is largely ignoring the logic I’ve provided. I
will summarize it here.
A. Alliances
Start by recognizing that ending a decades-long alliance has
repercussions. It sends a message that, regardless of what else you might
contribute to us, the closest aspect of our support is dispensable. It can be removed
at any time, and we can require you to take actions we and many of our other
allies would not take in order to retrieve it. That’s not exactly a strong
commitment, and other countries will take notice.
This is where Con’s double-standard comes in. Regardless of
what he wants to do now that he’s had more time to think about it, his case only
ends the alliance with Israel. That’s where his fiat ends. How he’d personally
choose to employ this radical view on alliances in general is not the case he
presented in Round 1. His case ends a single alliance and all military aid. That’s
it. So, when Con now claims that he will allow some unknown amount of emergency
funds, he’s abusively back-peddling on a case he presented in Round 1. When he
builds an additional plank to his plan in the final round about abolishing
lobbying, he’s not only abusive, he’s off topic. Hold him to the case he stated
from the outset. That is where it starts and ends.
At best, Con is assuming that a change in this alliance will
lead to discussion of other changes, but that sets an extremely vague timeline without
a tangible outcome, much less tangible impacts (he does clarify in the final
round, but, once again, it’s brand new, expands well beyond what he originally
stated, and incredibly abusive). This
makes the decision to disband this single alliance arbitrary, even if he doesn’t
perceive it that way. Con isn’t allowing for a period of discussion; he’s not simply
threatening to rescind this alliance. He’s rescinding it, with only a vague
promise to return it should they meet incredibly vague and steep criteria. It
invites criticism about why we’re selecting Israel first and giving everyone
else a proper debate and a chance to speak in their defense before acting. Even
if Con accomplished this goal, though, it doesn’t obviate my argument. Allies
would still be uncertain how to address a newly-picky US that is actively
purging alliances in mass.
Let’s take an example from Con’s responses in R3. He states
that some countries would not meet the threshold for imposed danger on the US
and includes South Korea. He concedes that they dragged us into the Korean War
in their defense. I’ve provided evidence that shows North Korea is a threat
primarily to its neighbors, and that our involvement there puts us at
continuous risk. Con’s only response is that we had other reasons for fighting
(he’s dismissed all of mine as irrelevant, so I guess I can do the same for his),
and that relations are better than they once were. That doesn’t address the
fact that the threat is still present and nuclear.
Con’s argument sets an arbitrary standard for what suffices as a threat to the
US, and imposes it using flawed criteria, yet he doesn’t expect any of our
allies to be concerned? No one’s going to wonder if they’re next? Alliances
function with at least the basic mentality that allies trust one another. How
is Con ever going to assure our other allies, or convince them to fight for us,
if he’s sending the message that pulling us into their conflicts means we will
cut them off? He won't, and as such, Con threatens every alliance we have and diminishes their value.
B. Regional Stability
Whether it’s via the leverage point or the strong horse
argument, I’ve provided ample reasoning for why Con’s case is a big mistake for
regional stability. On leverage, it’s a hand on the tiller. It’s only by having
something that can readily be reduced or raised that we can affect individual
policies and direct Israel in a beneficial manner. If it takes 8 years to start
doing this, that’s still a control that will exist and can be utilized in 8
years. Con is dropping any control from this point forward. On the strong
horse, other countries will take notice. The lack of military and financial
support from the country with the most of both is a huge shift. Other countries
perceive Israel as weaker, and Israel takes on the threat they present alone. It
doesn’t matter whether they have nuclear weapons because it hasn’t stopped
other nations from inciting them before, and it is even less likely to stop
them now when Israel can no longer afford to replace them should they be used. I
explained last round how the loss of regional stability damages both the world
economy and global stability, making any effects on other countries in the
Middle East extremely dangerous to the US and its other allies. Con concedes that
harm, and it is by far the most wide-reaching and important impact of this debate.
Any potential to throw the region into chaos causes a greater harm than
anything Con has cited. Moreover, even if Israel remains the strong horse, the simple absence of the US allows for other world powers like China to come in and build their own seats of power in the Middle East. Con concedes that this will destabilize the region.
Con’s case has no leverage and clearly weakens the strong horse. He’s demanding that Israel meet
extremely vague and demanding criteria for unclear benefits. Con’s case
actively harms the perception of Israel in the region. Even if Israel can theoretically
defeat every other military in the Middle East, the loss of US support means
those neighbors still have far more capacity to inflict harm upon Israel, which
will increase Israel’s desperation and turn them into a greater destabilizing
force in the region, another point Con concedes. His sole response is that
their neighbors would only use this reduced capacity to check Israeli aggression. I
think that’s incredibly naïve. Many of these countries (as well as terrorist groups
in the region like ISIS and Hezbollah) have threatened Israel repeatedly for
decades, yet Con would have you believe that they will never act on those
threats if given the opportunity.
Conclusion:
This debate all comes down to what story is the most convincing.
Is it the one that says Israel is solely responsible for every recent US
conflict and will actively drag us into others without any US say-so? Is it the
one that ends a long-standing alliance based on arbitrary and vague standards
without any discussion or debate, threatening stability in the region and of
our alliances? Or is it the one that maintains the economically and militarily
beneficial relationship, one that we can easily weigh and know will disappear
post-cessation? You decide.
I heard something about that, don't know the details.
I'd just generally disagree that taking away further impetus for negative blowback in the future (and I'd stress that simply abandoning the Middle East would have its own blowback, since it, too, is an action with consequences for the region) necessarily stops all future desire to cause harm. The US has been in the region for a long time. Saying that we made a mistake and leaving doesn't make the pain of that prolonged presence go away. It might give them less impetus to attack us, but it certainly doesn't suddenly reduce it to zero.
Nukes have their own set of principles that everyone plays by in order to prevent them from being used. Mutually assured destruction is certainly a motivator, but the actions it motivates often have nothing to do with actually using nukes.
I know it would have changed. I think we cause as many humanitarian problems as we solve, so it would probably work itself out. Didn't the United States just a few months ago drone some civilians. Not in a way where they were collateral damage, but actually targeting them?
Besides, becoming isolationist would mean zero blow back. Blow back is caused by actions, therefore end actions and end blowback from actions. 9/11 was blow back for example. 9/11 happened because of American presence helping Israel in the middle east. There is literally zero reason. To attack the United States if no reason is given for attacking the United States.
Besides, being ready to launch a nuke at any attack and erase a country from existence, is a really strong motivator of making sure America stays safe.
My strategy would have changed as well if that was the case. The argument just would have been focused on more current and probable future problems.
It affects the availability of global resources, leads to refugee crises and generally causes massive humanitarian concerns that we cannot just ignore.
I refuse to debate that until I read the book "the case for israel" by Alan derschowitz.
See below. But how do you think that Iraq fighting Kuwait would effect the global stage? Shit is just between them.
I don't understand how this debate was close. Bmd rocks could have made the debate more precise, and avoided just turning this into an excuse to bash Israel 's past actions.
I would have worded it something like
"America should stop sending foreign aid to Israel"
And if someone else is willing, you're welcome to argue it with them.
I disagree with how you think things would play out if Israel and the US functionally removed themselves as players in the Middle East. I think it would be more complicated than that, and old tensions would die hard if at all.
It would be more fun to argue the ethics of creating pedophile rings to entrap American politicians like mossad did with ghislaine maxwell.
Usually I can find a way to argue any position, but I think I would have a hard time arguing that Muslims would stop being violent extremists if Israel siezed to exist. At least they would just turn that violence inwards if Israel disappeared and America took an isolationist approach. We could just put a fence around that part of the world and forget about it.
Now, if you want to argue that the Middle East would just become peaceful if Israel was disbanded, we can do that. I don't think your position would be possible to win, but you're welcome to try.
I didn't argue that it was ethical. You asked if them spying on us was worse than us spying on them. I said no. It's bad both ways. And no, I'm not interested in debating that.
And no, I haven't claimed that there is something as bad done by American spies in Israel, though I think determining what is the worst act of spies depends entirely on the party that was harmed in the process. Determining who got harmed and to what degree by spy activities that may still largely remain confidential is not the kind of debate I want to have.
Would you like to debate whether it was ethical for mossad to have ghislaine maxwell blackmail American politicians by setting them up to be filmed having sex with minors?
Also you claim that technique us no worse than what is used by American spies. Can you name one instance of American spies doing something similar to what ghislaine maxwell did?
No to both questions.
Further more, do you think Israel spying on the United States is worse than visa versa because of their techniques. For example epstein's lover being connected with mossad and them bringing politicians on pedophile Island to black mail?
"Our role as a global strong horse places us in a unique position to elevate powers to that status. In aligning ourselves with a proxy strong horse, we create a stabilizing force in a region without a clear top power, and conversely, if we abdicate that role, we invite aggression. Israel functions as that stabilizing force"
Do you think that since Israel is the lightning rod for all the conflict there, it would just go to being a peacefumiddle east if Israel was disbanded
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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>Reported Vote: RationalMadman // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: Tied.
>Reason for Mod Action: Votes which do not award points are not subject to review because no standard exists in the COC against by which they can be removed.
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While I appreciate the vote of confidence, an actual vote would be nice. Your choice, though.
I'm not going to bother to write out a full RFD because I don't have the time or the inclination, but Whiteflame won and the other guy lost.
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>Reported Vote: coal // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 3 points to Pro
>Reason for Decision: PRO won the debate because he successfully showed that based on what is good for the US militarily and economically, and the international community more generally; is best served by Israel's alliance with the US. Very few of the harms cited by CON were attributable to the US-Israel alliance. Most of CON's rebuttals talked past PRO.
>Reason for Mod Action: To award argument points, a voter must complete all three steps set out in the site's voting policy. To award argument points, the voter must (1) survey the main arguments and counterarguments in the debate, (2) weigh those arguments and counterarguments against each other, and (3) explain, based on the weighing process, how they reached their decision. The voter completes none of these steps. It is not clear how Pro "successfully showed" that Israel is a good ally from this vote due to a lack of analysis of the main arguments and due to a lack of any explicit weighing based on such analysis. While the voter may have performed these steps in their own reasoning, these steps must be detailed explicitly in the vote itself. The voter can find the site's complete voting policy here: https://www.debateart.com/rules
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Sounds good to me. Again, don't intend on introducing new stuff, but I might have more data to present in later rounds.
Yeah, if you would like we always have the option to add new points, as long as it isn't the conclusion. Just separate rebuttals and new points to make it clear they are new.
I mean, I'm good with R1 being arguments only, but I'd like if we can introduce new points going out to R3 (not that I'm expecting to do that, but I want the option).
So, how do you want to do each round? Round 1 will be arguments, then 2 is rebuttal, 3 can criticize rebuttal, then 4 restate main points?