Instigator / Pro

Joshua_Stebold

1403

rating

debates

21.88%

won

Topic

#715

The F-22 Is Better Than The F-35

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman

Tags

Technology

Parameters

Publication date: 04.07.2019 06:18AM
Last updated date: 05.15.2019 08:48PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Three days
Max argument characters: 30,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1702

rating

574

debates

67.86%

won

Description

No information

Round 1

Joshua_Stebold

04.11.2019 11:23AM

Pro

Hello, RM.

Well in my opinion, the F-22 Raptor is better and more advanced technologically than the F-35 Lightning. And according to my previous research, the F-22 is equivalent in power to five F-15 Eagles. However, the F-35 cannot even match a F-16.

RationalMadman

04.14.2019 09:21AM

Con

Well in my opinion, the F-22 Raptor is better and more advanced technologically than the F-35 Lightning.

In my opinion that makes it worse, doesn't matter and/or is a lie.

the F-22 is equivalent in power to five F-15 Eagles.
However, the F-35 cannot even match a F-16.

I think you screwed up a bit here. The former statement has nothing to do with the latter one.

F-35 is super relevant, making latest News headlines and something Russia and China want to get hold of, F-22 is yesterday's News. This makes it extinct in superiority as it's no longer even in the discussion other than an old-school fighter jet from a time when fighting by planes was the way wars were fought.

https://www.f35.com/about

https://www.defensenews.com/video/2019/04/10/debris-from-japanese-f-35-crash-recovered-defense-news-minute-april-10-2019/

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27428/heres-everything-we-know-about-the-ongoing-search-for-japans-crashed-f-35

F-35 had a super relevant crash in Japan: https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2019/04/12/f-35a-crash-japans-defense-minister-addresses-security-concerns-procurement-plans/

This makes it better. It's so relevant and better at crashing.

Round 2

Joshua_Stebold

04.17.2019 09:21AM

Pro

Forfeited

RationalMadman

04.18.2019 10:13PM

Con

Round 3

Joshua_Stebold

04.21.2019 10:13PM

Pro

Forfeited

RationalMadman

04.22.2019 07:32PM

Con

Round 4

Joshua_Stebold

04.23.2019 10:59AM

Pro

Yes, but the F-35 cannot match the F-22 as a air superiority fighter, as proven by /nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/f-22-vs-f-35-which-stealth-fighter-wins-shootout-41652. militarymachine.com/f-22-raptor-vs-f-35-lightning-ii/also proves that the Raptor has more advantages than the Lightning II. From another perspective, the Lightning II was designed as a multi-role combat aircraft, however it cannot even match a much older jet, so it can be considered, to some degree, as a failure.

More sites:

www.investors.com/news/f35-vs-f22-dogfight-lockheed-martin-nato-wargames/

militarywatchmagazine.com/article/f-22-raptor-vs-f-35-lightning-ii-comparing-the-roles-and-capabilities-of-the-united-states-fifth-generation-fighters

aviatia.net/f-22-raptor-vs-f-35-lightning-ii/

www.defenseone.com/business/2018/08/lockheed-pitching-f-22f-35-hybrid-us-air-force/150943/(I put up this site to show proof that the F-22 is upgrading)

www.businessinsider.sg/f-35-vs-f-15-dogfights-2018-3/?r=US&IR=T(This site is to show how bad a military machine the F-35 can sometimes be)

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f-35-cant-beat-the-plane-its-replacing-in-a-dogfigh-1714712248

RationalMadman

04.25.2019 08:48PM

Con

If F-22 is upgrading, that would mean it's a different vehicle to the one being debated here. The 'is' in the resolution was at the time of making it, not what it will be post-debate creation.

F-22 needs upgrading because it's so bad. F-35 isn't designed to fight, so you're comparing them in different leagues.

Neither are actually 'better' when we consider the difference purposes. F-35 can cruise and comfortably fly in ways F-22 can't and this is because it's nto designed to fight in the same brutally fast way but to survey more.

As for 'improving and upgrading' the F-22 is near obsolete with the F-35 having far more upgrades and national backing from Israel and a couple of other nations.

So, even in that regard, you lose.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/all-hail-new-stealth-f-35-russia-and-china-will-hate-it-54077

Round 5

Joshua_Stebold

04.28.2019 08:48PM

Pro

Forfeited

RationalMadman

05.01.2019 08:48PM

Con

#10

Forfeited

David

05.02.2019 04:29PM

-->

@Scott_Manning

*******************************************************************
Vote Reported: Scott_Manning // Mod Action: Removed

Points awarded: 3 points to pro for arguments, 1 point to con for arguments

RFD: I absolutely agree with Ramshutu. I would also like to say that I think Con screwed up a bit at the better at crashing part.

Reason for mod action: (1) The voter must assess the content of the debate and only the debate, any reasoning based on arguments made or information given outside of the debate rounds is unacceptable. This includes reasoning that stems from already-placed votes, comment sections, and separate forums. Votes that impermissibly factor in outside content and which are reported will be removed. In this case, the voter relies on Ramshutu's vote, which is forbidden. (2) Finally, the conduct point is not explained. In order to award conduct, the voter must:

Provide specific references to instances of poor conduct which occurred in the debate
Demonstrate how this poor conduct was either excessive, unfair, or in violation of mutually agreed upon rules of conduct pertaining to the text of the debate
Compare each debater's conduct from the debate

Misconduct is excessive when it is extremely frequent and/or when it causes the debate to become incoherent or extremely toxic. In the case of awarding conduct points solely on the basis of forfeits, there is an exception to these steps: a debater may award conduct points solely for forfeited rounds, but only if one debater forfeited half or more of their rounds or if the voter also awards argument points (or explains their decision not to award argument points in a manner which meets the argument points voting standards).

The voter should review the COC here: https://www.debateart.com/rules

*******************************************************************

Barney

04.29.2019 06:22AM

-->

@Joshua_Stebold

He technically wrote " "

Joshua_Stebold

04.25.2019 12:30PM

-->

@RationalMadman

How did you manage to publish nothing at all?

Joshua_Stebold

04.23.2019 11:01AM

-->

@RationalMadman

Better at crashing?! Are you feeling alright? You need a doctor?

Joshua_Stebold

04.23.2019 10:59AM

Forgive me if I put up too many sites.

oromagi

04.07.2019 07:49PM

I like this topic because it has to do with public policy and is a subject I've never really researched. I bet the questions involved in fighter jet design and engineering are fascinating. If I was debating this, however, I'd be tempted to go after the weakness of "better than." Better for who? Not better for ISIS fighters or Yemeni villagers. And aren't we comparing apples and oranges? The F-35 is an air/ground attack vehicle, the F-22 is an air/air attack vehicle. The F-22 is designed to beat a plane like the F-35.

Swagnarok

04.07.2019 02:33PM

A plane with 2005 avionics vs one with mid to late 2010s avionics?

oromagi

05.09.2019 03:34AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

original topic. I would like to see this re-framed as a genuine, current policy debate.

Both debaters offered minimal effort. Pro opened with irrelevant opinion and a sloppy comparison that offered no insight. Con correctly called the sloppiness but nearly lost me by arguing "better at crashing." I understand Con is K'ing a subjective thesis but Con is also profoundly undermining an already scanty case.

Ultimately, Pro loses arg because Pro failed to offer substantial offense which seems to have given Con an excuse to phone in the defense. Links to other people's arguments are seldom persuasive to this voter.

Conduct to Con for Pro's triple forfeit.

Ramshutu

05.01.2019 09:16PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Conduct to con as pro forfeited most rounds.

A large number of subjective and arbitrary reasons for why one machine is better than the other. The resolution is comparative, so any examples where there is a clear comparative ground to say one is better than the other is what will score this one for me.

Con doesn’t provide much in the way of objective comparison between the two that doesn’t fall down on more than subjective grounds - one is old news, or not relevant is not a great reason to vote for con. While con did spend time indicating there is some differences in their roles, there is no reasonable objective data upon which to vote that the F35 is better and thus vote for con.

Pros main argument, and only example of a compelling objective difference is that the F22 our performs the F35. This appears to be both relevant to the topic, and obviously an intuitive reason to conclude the F22 is better than the F35. On those grounds: arguments to pro.