Instigator / Pro
70
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Topic
#666
The Movie "Braveheart" ought to be renamed.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
30
6
Better sources
20
6
Better legibility
10
3
Better conduct
10
0
After 10 votes and with 55 points ahead, the winner is...
oromagi
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Parameters
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- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
15
1374
rating
11
debates
4.55%
won
Description
I propose that the 1995 Academy award winning movie "Braveheart" ought to be renamed out of respect for Scottish history and the descendants of Robert the Bruce.
I'm requesting friendly and sincere participation: acceptance of this debate acknowledges that failing on either count is subject to consideration under conduct in voting. Any forfeiture should be treated by voters as resignation and automatic loss.
Round 1
Pro
#1
I see you just joined DART, alanwang123. Thanks for accepting this debate and welcome to the site.
I propose that the 1995 Academy award winning movie "Braveheart" ought
to be renamed out of respect for Scottish history and the descendants of
Robert the Bruce.
I expect most people are familiar with the film. Braveheart's on certain cable channels like AMC frequently and the film is certainly a highly entertaining and watchable move, minus the stilted unfactual romance and Gibson's awkwardly indulgent self-crucifixion. I watched a little bit of it this morning on AMC, in fact.
I credit the film for sparking my interest in the history of a country not my own but I'm troubled that a popular and well-received film should prove so counter-factual and false in the presentation of that history. I think we can agree that we possess something of a moral obligation to our ancestors to tell their stories with some accuracy. If we assert, as most people do today, that a person's biography is one's own, then that biography deserves credit and truth, within the boundaries of artistic license, even centuries after death. If someone should tell your story again some seven hundred years from now, wouldn't you hope you received credit where credit was due, that your depiction was, if not flattering, at least true?
Braveheart is generally acknowledged as a profoundly ahistorical film: if you google "least historically accurate movies" Braveheart appears somewhere on each of the first 9 lists. I won't take the time to lay out all the fake news but the film besmirches many real people's reputations, not just Bruce. Isabella of France, who is remembered now as the "She-Wolf of France" for her active rulership as Queen Regent of England for three years is depicted a smitten turncoat surrendering to William Wallace's sexual magnetism, making the future Edward III a bastard by treason and not incidentally, delegitimizing the rule of all successive English monarchs. In truth, Wallace was executed for treason when Isabella was still a child in France. Historically, Wallace's co-commander at the Battle of Stirling Bridge was Andrew Moray, who, unlike Wallace, actually fought on the field that day and died later as a Scottish hero, of his injuries there sustained. In the movie, Moray is Mornay, one of the clan chieftains who betrays Wallace at Falkirk and is killed by Wallace in vengeance on horseback indoors.
Likewise, Robert the Bruce, the winner of the First Scottish War of Independence, the victor of the Battle of Bannockburn, the restorer of the Scottish monarchy and King Robert I has much of his hero's glory stolen and given instead to William Wallace. Essentially, what we have is the second most important figure of the First Scottish War of Independence, Wallace, recast as the first most important figure and falsely clothed in some of the reputation of the first most import figure, Bruce.
The deepest injury is the theft of Bruce's famous epithet, "The Braveheart." Although King Robert I died of leprosy at 54;
"Robert had requested that his heart be taken on a tour of the Holy Land and presented before God at Jerusalem’s Church of the Holy Sepulchre before ultimately being buried at Melrose Abbey in Roxburghshire. The heart was given to Sir James Douglas in a metal urn to be worn on a necklace. However before Douglas and his company of knights could undertake the heart’s holy tour, they were called to fight against the Moors attempting to take Spain—the heart went along with.
Sir James Douglas was killed in a surprise attack, but before the confronting his attackers he is said to have thrown the heart urn ahead of him and shouted, “Lead on brave heart, I’ll follow thee.” Robert the Bruce’s heart was carried along with Douglas’ remains back to Scotland. " [1]
The traditional Braveheart of Scottish history refers to the embalmed heart of Robert the Bruce, now a Scottish relic and a national emblem.. Although Robert I was probably never called Braveheart during his lifetime, the epithet is his, in honor of his cherished memory.
William Wallace was never called the Braveheart until the 1995 film stole the Bruce's credit and gave it to Wallace, a false and unjust usurpation. Would it be fair if a modern work stole the moniker "Lionheart" from Richard I and gave it instead to his brother John? Would it be just if a movie started calling General Grant "Honest Uly" instead of Honest Abe? A movie that allegedly depicts events of the First Scottish War of Independence takes the honor meant for the victor of that war and gives it to another. Imagine if an American Purple heart was given to one man but credited to another unearned- would not that be a wrong worthy of correction?
What's more, the Bruce is shown as actively betraying William Wallace at the Battle of Falkirk by siding with Edward Longshanks of England. The actual Bruce fought alongside Wallace at Falkirk, or more accurately Bruce and Wallace fled English capture together after Wallace's plan collapsed. In truth, it was Wallace who was dishonored at Falkirk and in the wake of that failure Wallace resigned his titles as Guardian of Scotland in favor of Robert the Bruce. [2]
After Falkirk, Wallace left Scotland for Europe and remained gone for as much as six years while Robert stayed and improved his Scottish rebellion until redemption was achieved at the Battle of Bannockburn sixteen years later, long after Wallace was finally captured and then executed for treason.
Further, the movie takes the tactics employed by Bruce at Bannockburn and depicts them as used instead by Wallace at the Battle of Stirling, which was more of an ambush on a prone army in transit than a pitched battle pitting Scottish pike vs. English horse and bow.
Given these cases of stolen valor, I think the memory of William Wallace is unjustly improved at the expense of the memory of Robert the Bruce and his descendants. We might note that the current Princess of Wales is a direct descendant of the Bruce, as will be any future English monarchs by her. [3]
Of course, it is too late to rewrite the movie or edit out the history fails but the movie is popular, in part, because the falsely attributed achievements of Bruce. I think renaming the movie from Braveheart to something else, "William Wallace" perhaps would serve as a minor act of contrition and historical correction. Now, I'm not suggesting any kind of legal or industrial action. However, I do note that the owners of the title "Braveheart" have recently gone through some changes. Mel Gibson's Icon Production is essentially out of business and 20th Century Fox is gone, leaving Disney in charge of the film's international distribution rights. Perhaps a petition and some social media campaigning in favor of historical accuracy might be persuasive to new gatekeepers. Disney might even profit by renaming the film and then re-releasing the movie for a renewed theatrical run under the new name and with a renewed interest in making true stories more true.
So here is a minor wrong. Perhaps a major wrong in the realm of history on film but a minor wrong in the hierarchy of global suffering and so I propose a minor act of education and correction- giving credit where credit is due. I look forward to discovering what objections Con might present to such a plan.
Round 2
Pro
#3
That's a shame, alanwang123.
Please note instigator requested that any forfeiture should be treated by voters as resignation and automatic loss.
Extend arguments and vote Pro.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Please note instigator requested that any forfeiture should be treated by voters as resignation and automatic loss.
Extend arguments and vote Pro.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full Forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
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3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
FF, pure.........
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full Forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Forfeiture/resignation.
Good luck if you relaunch this.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit
Does anyone else realize that this is the 666th debate on this website(https://www.debateart.com/debates/666)?
What do you want to call the movie?
Shoot. If I was a betting man, Alec, I would've guessed you'd know Mad Max Mel's movies real good. I don't pretend to know you, but I have a feeling you'd really dig it and I think it would be easy to find. It basically won the oscar for a series of escalating battle scenes that are a lot of fun, very Robin Hood.
Pro wants me to know the film, but I don't. I"m sorry about that.
I am not particular but I do suggest one new title in R1
What do you want the title to be changed to?
I didn't rule out Ks although you're right, I prefer a debate on topic. In fact, I'm not a fan of Ks. Seems to me that the art of debate was developed to practice politics and running K's is no way to run a country. I've only lost to one K and that was Imabench accusing me of badly misinterpreting the seriousness of the debate, which was probably accurate.
When this is done I'd like it if you were to post what sort of K you might employ vs. this modest proposal. I admit I've thought of a couple as I was writing R1 today.
It has been done- Star Wars -> Star Wars: A New Hope is one famous example. I probably have not left sufficient ground for Con. But then, if nobody objects perhaps the time is right to start a campaign.
Never considered the issue of what it would take to rename a quarter-century old movie.
Not accepting the debate, as my arguments would probably amount to a K (sidestepping the true topic pro wishes to discuss).
Well, I quite enjoy the battle scenes although they are mostly fantasy.
Agree completely. The show is utter putrid nonsense and makes the actual Braveheart a villain, LOL!