Instigator / Pro
1590
rating
91
debates
58.79%
won
Topic
#6038
Christians shouldn't smoke/drink alcohol recreationally (even one drink) or perform any sexual activity other than sex with wife
Status
Debating
Waiting for the next argument from the instigator.
Round will be automatically forfeited in:
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
1747
rating
24
debates
100.0%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
This debate should be approached from a Christian perspective and is basically meant to determine how clean of a lifestyle God expects you to have as a Christian. It is not a debate about knit picking the fact that I used "wife" in the proposition instead of "spouse" and saying that I'm wrong because women can be Christians.
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” – 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” – Romans 14:21
The above verses imply two things, that you shouldn't consume anything which makes your body impure (because it is a temple) and that you shouldn't consume anything which is unhealthy (because unhealthy things are impure and you are "made weak" by them).
“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” – Romans 14:21
The above verses imply two things, that you shouldn't consume anything which makes your body impure (because it is a temple) and that you shouldn't consume anything which is unhealthy (because unhealthy things are impure and you are "made weak" by them).
In August, we covered a large-scale review that drew an unequivocal conclusion: it’s not, in fact, safe to drink any amount of alcohol.Senior author Dr. Emmanuela Gakidou referred to the idea that one or two drinks are safe for health as “a myth.”She said that her and her colleagues’ research found that any level of drinking is tied to an increased risk of early death, cancer, and cardiovascular events.
Alcohol is yeast urine! Yeast are tiny animals that, through the process of fermentation, convert sugar plus water into ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide gas. These two products constitute the bodily wastes of yeast.
Yeast Urine - The Fermentation Product Alcohol Is Yeast Urine!
Now as for the sexual aspect, Jesus makes it clear that fornication is bad. Fornication is any form of casual sex done for pleasure, and this would include masturbation since it is a sexual act that doesn't involve reproduction or marriage. Important biblical figures and the church fathers (renowned bishops from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century) are pretty much unanimously in agreement that chastity is a virtue with the only exception being in the context of marriage.
Now as for the sexual aspect, Jesus makes it clear that fornication is bad. Fornication is any form of casual sex done for pleasure, and this would include masturbation since it is a sexual act that doesn't involve reproduction or marriage. Important biblical figures and the church fathers (renowned bishops from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd century) are pretty much unanimously in agreement that chastity is a virtue with the only exception being in the context of marriage.
Con
#2
Thanks, FishChaser, for an intriguing opening argument.
Framework:
Burdens
First, the phrasing “you shouldn’t x or y” means that you shouldn’t do x and that you shouldn’t do y. Saying “Leonardo DiCaprio is not white or black” would be false, since he is white, even if he’s not black. Saying “children cannot vote or breathe” would be false, since children can breathe, even if they can’t vote.
Hence, per the resolution, Pro must establish all three of the following:
- Christians shouldn't smoke
- Christians shouldn’t drink alcohol recreationally (even one drink)
- Christians shouldn’t perform any sexual activity other than sex with their wife
“Should” implies that this isn’t an individual choice to make and ignores circumstances. Given the emphasis on “any,” “even one drink,” and the fact that no Christians are excluded, any exception is sufficient to negate the resolution.
If Pro fails to establish any of these three premises, then by default the choice would be left up to the individual Christian. Hence, in the absence of a specific restriction on these things for all Christians, the claim that Christians shouldn’t ever do any of these things is negated. I’ll contest the points about alcohol and sexual activity, which should be sufficient to negate the resolution.
1. Drinking Alcohol:
“1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ‘What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?’”
This verse says the body is a temple. It says nothing about what Christians can or can’t consume.
“Romans 14:21 ‘It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.’”
Pro cites this verse out of context. The preceding verse states that “All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.” Furthermore, Romans 14:2-3 states that “One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.” This is not a blanket restriction on alcohol or food, it is advice specifically for a case where eating meat or drinking alcohol would harm someone else’s faith.
“it’s not, in fact, safe to drink any amount of alcohol.”
This study examines the impact of 1 drink per day. However, the resolution doesn’t say anything about one drink per day, it claims that Christians shouldn’t have one drink at all. The study doesn’t say anything about having one drink a month or one drink a year. Furthermore, the article states that, “Consuming one or two drinks about four days per week seems to protect against cardiovascular disease.”
Furthermore, neither of the verses Pro brings up is a prohibition on everything that increases mortality rates. Not exercising regularly, or driving a car instead of walking might make you less healthy, as could eating pizza in moderation. Yet those decisions aren’t inherently sinful.
“Alcohol is yeast urine”
Drinking yeast urine is not prohibited in the Bible, so this point is irrelevant.
Alcohol Permitted in the Bible
There are many examples in the Bible where drinking alcohol is permitted or encouraged:
- Jesus turns water into wine for people to drink.
- Paul writes, “Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”
- Ecclesiastes states, “drink your wine with a merry heart.”
Hence, the claim that “even one drink” is prohibited is simply not true. Christians are allowed to drink under many circumstances.
2. Sexual Activity:
Pro argues here against fornication, however there are many forms of sexual activity other than sex with one’s wife which are not prohibited in the Bible.
“It is not a debate about knit picking the fact that I used "wife" in the proposition instead of "spouse" and saying that I'm wrong because women can be Christians.”
There’s a pretty big difference between the term “wife” and the term “spouse,” since half of all spouses are husbands. The statement “all spouses are female” is clearly false, and it’s not nitpicking to point it out. Similarly, the statement, “Christians can only have sex with wives” is also false. This debate is over the resolution, not over a hypothetical resolution Pro could have written instead.
Sex With Husbands
1 Corinthians states “each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.” Husbands are not wives, and Pro seems to concede this point.
Sexual Activity Other Than Sex
The Bible doesn’t restrict most sexual activities between married couples, even those that aren’t sex. Sexual caresses, for example, are still allowed, even if they aren’t part of sexual intercourse. It is possible to be sexual without actually having sex. In fact, in the resolution, Pro distinguishes “sexual activity” and “sex.”
A few verses to further illustrate this:
- Proverbs states: “let her breasts satisfy thee at all times” (referring to married couples), despite the fact that breasts aren’t necessary for sexual intercourse.
- Song of Songs states, “You are tall like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its bunches of fruit. I said, ‘I will climb up the palm tree and take hold of its fruit.’”
“masturbation…is a sexual act that doesn't involve reproduction or marriage”
This is untrue. Masturbation can be done in the context of marriage, and there are plenty of ways for spouses to stimulate each other.
Even the Catholic church, which tends to be more restrictive about sexual activity than Protestant denominations, does not teach that the only sexual act a married couple may perform is intercourse. Of course, the resolution includes Protestants, so many married Christians are permitted to engage in a wide range of sexual activities that don’t require actually having sex.
Round 2
Pro
#3
It should be noted that there is a difference between "shouldn't" and "can't". You can in fact do the things stated in the resolution without losing your salvation (and hence your status as "Christian"). But what I will establish is that the covenant of grace still expects you to avoid sinning, thus if extramarital sexual activity and recreational drug use is a sin then Christians shouldn't do it.
In Christianity there is a distinction between "works" and "grace" as a means of salvation. Under a covenant of works you must not sin to be saved, under a covenant of grace your sins can be forgiven as long as you have faith.
The key misunderstanding stems from the fact that humans CAN'T stop sinning entirely as long as they are in the flesh, so it brings into question what amount of sin is acceptable.
The answer is: as little sin as you are capable of, and the proof is the law of Moses.
A common misunderstanding is that God's covenant with Moses was a covenant of works, but if that was true God would have abandoned the Israelites from the beginning since they all would have continuously broken the covenant from the moment it was made.
Instead God only cursed or abandoned Israel when they turned away from him and worshipped other gods, all of their sinning (i.e breaking the law of Moses) wasn't enough to make God turn on them until they broke the law that said you must be FAITHFUL to God.
Hence, as a Jew OR as a Christian you should strive to sin as little as possible even though faith and loyalty to God is the only thing that actually saves you, and the proof is that God gave us the law of Moses and commanded us to follow it even though he knew it was impossible for humans to keep the law perfectly.
“1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ‘What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?’”
This verse says the body is a temple. It says nothing about what Christians can or can’t consume.
The fact that it is a temple means it should be cared for and treated as sacred. If drinking alcohol is unhealthy then drinking alcohol is sin, of drinking alcohol is unclean (it is literally bacteria pissing and shitting in your mouth) then drinking it is a sin.
Pro cites this verse out of context. The preceding verse states that “All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.” Furthermore, Romans 14:2-3 states that “One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.” This is not a blanket restriction on alcohol or food, it is advice specifically for a case where eating meat or drinking alcohol would harm someone else’s faith.
Touche'
This study examines the impact of 1 drink per day. However, the resolution doesn’t say anything about one drink per day, it claims that Christians shouldn’t have one drink at all. The study doesn’t say anything about having one drink a month or one drink a year. Furthermore, the article states that, “Consuming one or two drinks about four days per week seems to protect against cardiovascular disease.”
Touche', but would you let someone piss or shit all over a temple of God?
urthermore, neither of the verses Pro brings up is a prohibition on everything that increases mortality rates. Not exercising regularly, or driving a car instead of walking might make you less healthy, as could eating pizza in moderation. Yet those decisions aren’t inherently sinful.
You don't seem to understand what sin is or why it's impossible not to sin as a human. Literally anything less than being perfect is a sin, that's why without a covenant of grace all humans go to hell. The reason non-humans don't go to hell is because they don't have knowledge of good and evil, hence they aren't held accountable.
Drinking yeast urine is not prohibited in the Bible, so this point is irrelevant.
Urine is unclean and so is poison. It is implied by the bible that drinking neurotoxic urine is bad, if not just by common sense.
There are many examples in the Bible where drinking alcohol is permitted or encouraged:
- Jesus turns water into wine for people to drink.
- Paul writes, “Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”
- Ecclesiastes states, “drink your wine with a merry heart.”
the phrase "grape juice" did not exist when the bible was written. Not all "wine" has alcohol in it.
There’s a pretty big difference between the term “wife” and the term “spouse,” since half of all spouses are husbands. The statement “all spouses are female” is clearly false, and it’s not nitpicking to point it out. Similarly, the statement, “Christians can only have sex with wives” is also false. This debate is over the resolution, not over a hypothetical resolution Pro could have written instead.
It is intellectually dishonest to push this issue because everyone reading this debate is capable of understanding that what I meant may be different from the flawed phrasing in the resolution. To debate this point or vote against me based on this is essentially to pretend you have severe low functioning autism and are incapable of not taking everything completely literally.
The Bible doesn’t restrict most sexual activities between married couples, even those that aren’t sex. Sexual caresses, for example, are still allowed, even if they aren’t part of sexual intercourse. It is possible to be sexual without actually having sex. In fact, in the resolution, Pro distinguishes “sexual activity” and “sex.”
Again, Con is making an argument from severe low functioning autism. This is the same logic Bill Clinton used when he pretended not to know a blow job counts as "sexual relations".
Furthermore, the bible makes it clear that lusting after someone you aren't married to is a sin. If you look at someone and think they are attractive that's literally a sin. Not only is it a sin, it is the act of fornication itself according to Jesus.
Matthew 5:27-28
Now you may say "but this is about cheating not about messing around when you aren't married". This totally misses the point of what Jesus is saying though.
Jesus is using this as an example to drive home the point that a covenant of grace is necessary, because even if you think you are keeping the law you are incapable of keeping it perfectly and any imperfection counts as breaking the law and sinning.
So by the same logic, all sexual activity is "sex" and even looking at someone you aren't married to and finding them attractive is extramarital fornication.
Masturbation can be done in the context of marriage, and there are plenty of ways for spouses to stimulate each other.
And in that case it counts as sex between man and wife, in all other cases it counts as sinful fornication.
Con
#4
Thanks, Pro
1. Drinking Alcohol:
Note that Pro concedes here that there’s no evidence having one drink a year is unhealthy, and that consuming one or two drinks about four days per week protects against cardiovascular disease.
“Literally anything less than being perfect is a sin”
Well, protecting against cardiovascular disease is good, so by Pro’s standards, it would be “less than perfect” and thus sinful not to drink alcohol. However, I think these standards are too harsh. Sin is transgression against the law of God. Since there is no specific law against alcohol or being unhealthy, it’s not a sin to drink in moderation.
“The fact that it is a temple means it should be cared for and treated as sacred. If drinking alcohol is unhealthy then drinking alcohol is sin.”
Jesus didn’t work out 10 hours a day. Health isn’t the only thing that matters. Having fun and engaging in social events are also good things. Psalm 104 talks positively about “wine that gladdens the heart.” Pro is implying that humans should sacrifice all pleasure to maximize health outcomes, which isn’t supported by the bible.
“Touche', but would you let someone piss or shit all over a temple of God?”
Fermented alcohol isn’t the same as human urine or feces. Yeast and humans are totally different organisms. This would be like saying that Jesus eating fish means he’s okay with eating humans. Different organisms are different.
“Urine is unclean and so is poison. It is implied by the bible that drinking neurotoxic urine is bad, if not just by common sense.”
Again, human urine is not the same as alcohol. Neither the bible nor common sense implies that fermentation is inherently bad.
“the phrase "grape juice" did not exist when the bible was written. Not all "wine" has alcohol in it.”
Scholars consistently agree that the wine in the Bible was alcoholic. As Professor D.F. Watson states, “All wine mentioned in the Bible is fermented grape juice with an alcohol content. No non-fermented drink was called wine.” Maintaining unfermented grape juice was a virtual impossibility in biblical times. The Passover celebration, ordained by God and which Jesus participated in, included alcoholic wine.
Jesus’ consumption of alcohol was well-known enough that he was even called “a glutton and a drunkard” by his enemies. Obviously he drank in moderation, but the accusation wouldn’t make sense if he totally abstained from alcohol.
2. Sexual Activity:
Pro concedes that the resolution is negated as written, since women can be Christians and have sex with their husbands.
“It is intellectually dishonest to push this issue because everyone reading this debate is capable of understanding that what I meant may be different from the flawed phrasing in the resolution.”
By this standard, any instigator can choose to modify the resolution after creating a debate by saying they meant something else. If I created a resolution saying that “wives can be male” and then once someone accepted, I said that “I meant spouses, not wives,” that would be dishonest and unfair. The resolution must be agreed to by both sides, and I agreed to debate the resolution as stated, not a hypothetical resolution in Pro’s head. Pro doesn’t dispute that the terms “wife” and “spouse” mean different things, in fact he admits at the beginning of R1 that he should have written the word “spouse” if he wanted to include husbands in the resolution.
“Fornication”
I’m not talking about fornication, I’m talking about fooling around in the context of marriage. Christians are permitted to perform sexual activity that isn’t sex.
“by the same logic, all sexual activity is "sex"...[Masturbation] counts as sex between man and wife”
By what logic? Jesus never says this. He classifies lust as adultery, but that doesn’t mean that lust is sex, just that you can cheat on someone without having sex. Again, it’s possible to be sexual without having sex. Married people are permitted to sexually caress each other without actually having sex. If any sexual activity was sex, then any virgin who watched pornography would no longer be a virgin.
The legal system distinguishes sex pretty clearly from other forms of sexual activity. Not all sexual assault is rape, because not all sexual activity is sex. And lust alone is obviously not rape, because again, it’s not sex. If nonconsensual sexual activity isn’t all rape, then it follows that consensual sexual activity isn’t all sex.
“This is the same logic Bill Clinton used when he pretended not to know a blow job counts as "sexual relations".”
Except I’m not saying that a blowjob isn’t sexual, I’m saying that caressing/fondling isn’t by itself sex, even if it is sexual activity.
Round 3
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Dont worry. The Dark Gods accept everyone. They are not as judging as Jesus is. 🤘
Least obvious rage bait lol
I find it okay that you say that. I have been trying to convert some followers from Christianity to polytheism, and that helps.
You also claimed that Jesus and the Bible never made any direct statements concerning LGBT or virgin marriage, which is simply false.
Who are you do declare that it's a "barely relevant issue"? Who are you to declare that telling people what the Bible says is not worth losing potential followers? What you essentially said is we should intentionally not tell people interested in Christianity things that conflict with their lifestyle. If someone is only a 'Christian' because they don't know that the Bible says they have to change their lifestyle, then they are not actually a follower of 'Christianity' but a follower of 'some of the Bible's rules'. If you don't accept all of what the Bible says, you are simply not a true Christian. You can not pick and choose which rules to follow. Obeying just SOME of God's commandments doesn't make you a Christian. If I wanted to disregard every rule in the Bible except 'do not murder', would you say I am a Christian because I followed that commandment? Of course not! To be considered a genuine Christian, you must regard all of the moral laws set in place by God
sue me, I should have put "spouse" but what's done is done. Now it's up to con if he will play word games or debate as intended, and if he chooses to play word games I am armed with enough sexism to combat it.
"you excluded 50% of the population by assuming a male pov"
Historically, that did happen often.
?
No you excluded 50% of the population by assuming a male pov
This is not about political correctness, it's failing to see a perspective that is not your own
Good thing this isn't a debate about political correctness
*implicitly
It's not exploiting your wording when it's implicity sexist
Only asexual nuns can be real Christians and go to heaven.
lmao I might use that if he tries to exploit how I worded it
I am a bit confused with how "or" will be understood in this debate by voters. Does it mean Pro just has to prove one of the three things he mentioned to win?
RIP straight women
"Does the title of this debate assume that the Christian in question is a man. . ?"
Well, it cant be a woman, because that would make the last part very awkward.
Its not worth to lose followers over such a barely relevant issue. Most people are never going to read whole Bible, and informing them on this issue, which Bible is even very unclear about, to such an extreme level would make many people who would otherwise be somewhat decent Christians instead become atheists who dont care for anything what Bible says anymore. Sure, you can go around saying things like gay and trans are wrong in what they do, okay, that was mentioned, but fact remains that Bible and Jesus and his followers didnt mention anything directly about the very specific issue Christians today want to impose. Christians today talk about it all the time. There are way more important issues than the one which Bible doesnt even mention directly anyway.
That's not how religion works bro. We can't lie about the rules in the Bible to get more followers. The purpose of Christianity is not to get as many followers as possible, but to teach people what God says is right and wrong and how God says they should live. It's up to people who hear about what the Bible says whether they want to follow its rules or not. Therefore intentionally not informing people on certain things that the Bible says defeats the purpose of telling them about it in the first place.
Does the title of this debate assume that the Christian in question is a man. . ?
I am just saying, you dont exactly want to go around saying masturbation is horrible sin because you are making people less likely to become Christians, and it conflicts with science. Its not worthy to lose followers over that issue.
Unfortunately God doesn't want any sex or cooming for people outside marriage, even if they struggle to find a partner.
I agree with smoke and alcohol, but how will you defend that masturbation is bad? My balls would explode if I followed that.