Instigator / Pro
0
1577
rating
97
debates
59.28%
won
Topic
#6010
Christianity has more evidence than Islam
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
0
0
After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 20,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
0
1516
rating
4
debates
87.5%
won
Description
FULL RESOLUTION
Christianity has more evidence than Islam (Pro)
Islam has more evidence than Christianity (Con)
TERMINOLOGY
Evidence-impirical OR rational proofs supporting either Islam or Christianity
Islam-message & teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) according to the traditional mainstream Islam, i.e. the legal, theological & mystic Sunni schools of thought. Namely, the Four Madhhabs of law, the Ash'ari/Maturidi creed, & the Sufi tariqas
Christianity: Any non-heretical sect that upholds the Nicene Creed. The belief in the holy trinity and Jesus Christ as both God and son of God who's death and resurrection provides salvation and the forgiveness of sin.
STRUCTURE
Round 1: opening arguments.
Round 2: arguments & rebuttals.
Round 3: arguments & rebuttals.
RULES
Shared BOP.
Citations are to be quoted in the text of the debate.
Sources are to be reliable.
Translations (of original text) are to be adequate.
No forfeit.
Round 1
Pro
#1
1: The following source claims that Islam allows for an interpretation that is compatible with non-human evolution but not with evolution in humans.
2. As for evolution, the dominant – if not consensus – viewpoint among scholars is that it is in direct contradiction of the primary texts affirming an original and direct creation for Adam who was the first human being. These texts, such as Qur’an 38:71-76, indicate that Adam did not arise from a prior species. This was not because God could not have created humans through an evolutionary process but because He willed not to do so and informed us of this through revelation.
The Qur’an, however, does not state the same regarding non-human species. Consequently, some scholars have differentiated between human evolution and non-human evolution stating that the primary texts only affirm an original creation for humans, namely Adam, not non-humans. Therefore, the theory of evolution in relation to the latter poses no intrinsic problem whether at the level of macro-evolution or micro-evolution.
This interpretation is not possible though, because there is just as much evidence for humans having evolved as for any other species. If you accept the evidence for evolution then you logically must accept the evidence for human evolution as well, and there is a lot of evidence.
Scientists have discovered a wealth of evidence concerning human evolution, and this evidence comes in many forms. Thousands of human fossils enable researchers and students to study the changes that occurred in brain and body size, locomotion, diet, and other aspects regarding the way of life of early human species over the past 6 million years. Millions of stone tools, figurines and paintings, footprints, and other traces of human behavior in the prehistoric record tell about where and how early humans lived and when certain technological innovations were invented. Study of human genetics show how closely related we are to other primates – in fact, how connected we are with all other organisms – and can indicate the prehistoric migrations of our species, Homo sapiens, all over the world. Advances in the dating of fossils and artifacts help determine the age of those remains, which contributes to the big picture of when different milestones in becoming human evolved.
On the other hand, the creation account in the Bible is eerily similar to how scientists describe the history of our planet and the life thereon if you simply interpret the word "day" as "period of time" which the original Hebrew would allow for.
the following article explains how all six days of creation line up with the order that things emerged according to science.
Most people think of science and religion as polar opposites. A person can be religious, or they can believe science. Someone can follow Christ or believe Darwin. There is no in between. Despite this general attitude, many people do believe in both the Bible and modern scientific findings. Is this possible or are such people picking and choosing from each side? Can a person believe in both science and Genesis without ludicrously complex justifications or does holding to both faith and science require mental gymnastics that would stun even an Olympian?
The answer depends on how a person defines “mental gymnastics” as well as how literally a person takes the Genesis creation account. If a person takes Genesis completely literally, then science is not compatible. Science refutes that the world was formed in six days. Genesis states that explicitly. If one is willing to view each with a grain of salt, however, one could fit science and Genesis together rather easily for the most part.
2: The Qur'an claims that the water of Noah's flood came from "an oven" which is an idea borrowed from the Talmud, an uninspired non-scriptural work compiled after the Jews had strayed away from their original faith.
The Quran’s depictions of the great Flood of Noah’s day contain oddities that cause one who is familiar with the Bible to question the Quran’s reliability. For example, in Surah 11:36-40 the Quran describes Noah’s conflict with his contemporaries and, in the process, makes a puzzling remark pertaining to the condition of the Flood waters:
And it was inspired in Noah, (saying): No one of thy folk will believe save him who hath believed already. Be not distressed because of what they do. Build the ship under Our Eyes and by Our inspiration, and speak not unto Me on behalf of those who do wrong. Lo! they will be drowned. And he was building the ship, and every time that chieftains of his people passed him, they made mock of him. He said: Though ye make mock of us, yet we mock at you even as ye mock; And ye shall know to whom a punishment that will confound him cometh, and upon whom a lasting doom will fall. (Thus it was) till, when Our commandment came to pass and the oven gushed forth water (Surah 11:36-40, emp. added).
This contradicts the only historically credible explanation for how the flood happened, which would have been local rather than global by the way:
Two geologists at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory have offered a new theory of what happened next. William Ryan and Walter Pitman, in Noah's Flood (Simon & Schuster), postulate that as time went on, the world warmed, the glaciers retreated and meltwater from the European glaciers began to flow north into the North Sea, depriving the Black Sea of its main source of replenishment. The level of the Black Sea began to drop, and most of the area around its northern boundary — the area adjacent to present-day Crimea and the Sea of Azov — became dry land. At this point, the level of the Black Sea was several hundred feet below that of the Mediterranean, and the two were separated by the barrier of the Bosporus, then dry land. This situation, with the world ocean rising while the Black Sea was falling, could not last forever. Eventually, like a bathtub overflowing, the Mediterranean had to pour through into the Black Sea basin.The idea that ocean basins can flood catastrophically during periods of rising sea levels is nothing new in geology. Five million years ago, long before there were any humans around, just such an event occurred. The level of the Atlantic Ocean had dropped, or some tectonic event had occurred, with the result that water could no longer get through, and the Mediterranean gradually shrank down to a desert spotted with a few salty bits of ocean. Subsequently, when either the Atlantic rose again or another geological change took place, ocean water began pouring back into the former sea. The basin filled, and the present-day Mediterranean was created.
3: Both the Qur'an and the Bible contain patterns, codes and signs that are supposed to support their authenticity. For example in the Qur'an the word "day" appears 365 times across the whole text. I would argue that these signs are more impressive in the Bible than in the Qur'an. The very first sentence of the Bible contains a hidden prophesy about Jesus in the original Hebrew and there is even a hidden code that explains how the moon formed with scientific accuracy and describes the length of the lunar cycle before it's discovery by modern science.
It is said that many predictions about future events are actually encoded in the Bible, even things like the year of the moon landing and the assassination of JFK.
It is said that many predictions about future events are actually encoded in the Bible, even things like the year of the moon landing and the assassination of JFK.
This claim is that in ancient Hebrew (Paleo-Hebrew) there is an idiographic or pictographic meaning assigned to each letter of the alphabet. These are symbols that depict an idea and because of this, the idea of Jesus as Creator and Savior can be seen in the words themselves. Now, I am no Hebraist so I did some research online from various sources to see if the claim about the first two words in the Bible really did hold up and as far as I can tell (and to my surprise), the claim is true (but with a very important caveat; the process used to come to this conclusion is not consistent and is very vague). Since it’s not a perfect science where hermetically you could apply the same rules to all Biblical texts, this idea at best might be said to be used as a shadow of Christ (in my opinion) but as mentioned in the warning above, this is too abstract a process to be good evidence for that.
A few things to keep in mind; Hebrew reads from right to left in case anyone looks this up themselves (which I encourage everyone to do with all claims like these) so don’t let this confuse you. Also, when translated from the Hebrew to English the first verse in Genesis reads: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” While this is accurate for the English sentence structure, the proper reading of the verse in the original Hebrew would be “In the beginning created God the heavens and the earth.” So here is a breakdown of the first two words in Genesis;
The 1st word Barasheet translated as “In the beginning”
The letters in order are: Beyt Resh Aleph Shin Yud Tav
Beyt + Resh together form the word Bar meaning “Son of” (in Aramaic, in Hebrew it is Ben)
Aleph = Ox head meaning Power, Authority, Strength; said to be used by the Hebrews to represent “God”
Shin = Two front teeth meaning Sharp, Press, Eat… (the function of the teeth when chewing; consume/destroy)
Yud = Arm meaning work, make and deed; the functions of the hand
Tav = Crossed Sticks meaning Mark, Sign, Signal, MonumentSo the first word in the Bible, in the beginning, holds this idea (according to the claim);
The Son of God (will be) destroyed (by His own) work on a cross. Even from the beginning, the Son of God was to die on a cross for us by His own hand to save us from our sins.
Arguably, the first person to have used the alleged Bible Code to decipher seemingly valid information was a thirteenth-century rabbi, biblical commentator, and philosopher named Bachya Ben Asher. Using ELS methods—in this instance, he would highlight four letters before skipping the next 42 and then highlighting four more, and so on—Rabbi Bachya made some remarkable revelations about the moon.
Along with information about how the moon was formed and settled into its rotation, the most fascinating detail was his offering that the Bible Code had revealed to him that the exact length of the cycle of the moon was 29.53 days. While this information meant little to many people at the time, when this was confirmed by modern science in 1996, it made many look at the possibility that the Bible Code could be more accurate than many people wished to believe.
While many people found this confirmation mind-blowing, it was an event that happened several years earlier that perhaps first brought the Bible Code to the attention of the wider world population. And that is the subject of the next point on our list.[1]
10 Mind-Blowing Claims and Messages Hidden in the Bible Code - Listverse
4: My fourth point is that Jesus was a man of perfect morality and Muhammad was not. Jesus spent his life healing the sick and telling people to live in peace and charity, I challenge you to find even one morally contentious thing Jesus did that isn't merely twisting and taking out of context something he said.
Jesus's life as recorded in the gospel suggests that he was literally without sin, which is suggestive of his divine nature and status as God in human form.
Mohammad on the other hand was a warlord who had sex with a 9 year old.
Jesus's life as recorded in the gospel suggests that he was literally without sin, which is suggestive of his divine nature and status as God in human form.
Mohammad on the other hand was a warlord who had sex with a 9 year old.
5: The Qur'an admits that Jesus had supernatural abilities and that Muhammad did not. It says that it is Jesus and not Mohammad who will return on the day of judgement, yet Islam not only denies Jesus's status as the son of God but also his death and resurrection. This is ironic because Jesus's death and resurrection have more evidence than ANYTHING in the entire religion of Islam. The shroud of turin for one is the greatest piece of supernatural evidence in the entire world and it supports Christianity.
The image on the shroud cannot be explained, I dare you to try where millions of failed. It is a photographic negative from a time before photography, it has 3 dimensional holographic properties that can only be seen using imaging technology invented by NASA, and the fibers which make up the image show extreme aging as if they were hit with a highly concentrated burst of radiation.
The image on the shroud cannot be explained, I dare you to try where millions of failed. It is a photographic negative from a time before photography, it has 3 dimensional holographic properties that can only be seen using imaging technology invented by NASA, and the fibers which make up the image show extreme aging as if they were hit with a highly concentrated burst of radiation.
- Jesus’s historical existence is generally accepted among scholars.
- The evidence for the reality of Jesus Christ includes writings by historians, artifacts and eyewitness accounts.
To validate their findings, the researchers compared the shroud’s cellulose degradation with that of other linens discovered in Israel dating back to the first century. They found that the data profiles were consistent with linen samples dated between 55 and 74 AD, such as those found at Masada, Israel, Herod's ancient fortress overlooking the Dead Sea.
Conversely, when the shroud’s degradation was compared with linens from the medieval period (1260–1390 AD), no similarities were found. The study concluded that to align the 1988 carbon dating results with the new findings, the shroud would have had to be preserved at an unusually high temperature throughout its supposed 700-year history—a scenario deemed highly unlikely.
Dr. Liberato De Caro, the study’s lead author, suggested that the 1988 carbon dating might have been flawed due to contamination that could not be entirely removed from the sample. He argued that carbon-14 dating is unreliable if the cleaning process is inadequate, which may have been the case in 1988. He also noted that there was a significant increase in carbon-14 concentration from the edges towards the center of the shroud, which could have skewed the dating results.
Con
#2
Thanks Pro for his opening round. Looking forward to more.
Preface
Since the claims of Christianity & Islam are mutually exclusive they can not both be true. It is still possible to bring evidence for either. Just as both a flat & a round earther may bring evidence for their case. The implied BOP in this debate is to show the opponent’s case is comparatively lacking in evidence, contingent on the evidence brought in by the opponent, regardless of whatever evidence exists elsewhere. – It is up to Con to provide the best evidence for his case, & up to me to show that it is lacking in comparison.
Nevertheless, I will attempt to show that where evidence for Islam is conclusive, evidence for Christianity is impossible, as pre the definitions.
By “tradition” I mean the Sunni tradition. – It is assumed in this debate that God, the necessary being, exists & that miracles are true.
Preface
Since the claims of Christianity & Islam are mutually exclusive they can not both be true. It is still possible to bring evidence for either. Just as both a flat & a round earther may bring evidence for their case. The implied BOP in this debate is to show the opponent’s case is comparatively lacking in evidence, contingent on the evidence brought in by the opponent, regardless of whatever evidence exists elsewhere. – It is up to Con to provide the best evidence for his case, & up to me to show that it is lacking in comparison.
Nevertheless, I will attempt to show that where evidence for Islam is conclusive, evidence for Christianity is impossible, as pre the definitions.
By “tradition” I mean the Sunni tradition. – It is assumed in this debate that God, the necessary being, exists & that miracles are true.
CASE
First let us determine the claim of each side. The Islamic claim is the central message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) the doctrine of Tawhid: “There is no god but Allah, Muhammed is the messenger of Allah”. The Christian claim is the doctrine of the Trinity: “Jesus Christ is God & son of God in Holy Trinity died on the cross for human salvation”, as per Pro’s description.
To establish the resolution Islam has more evidence than Christianity I shall proceed as follows in two rounds:
I. Establish the standards of proof in the Islamic tradition which will inform my methodology of evidence.
II. Establish the authenticity of the Islamic claim before we can ascertain its veracity. That the source of the message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is authentic.
III. Establish the truth of the claim that ‘There is no god but Allah’.
IV. Establish the truth of the claim that ‘Muhammed is His Messenger’.
V. Disprove the authenticity of the Christian claim. That the source scriptures are not authentic.
VI. Disprove the truth of said claim.
• Conclude positively on the resolution that Islam has more evidence than Christianity.
I Standards of proof in the Islamic tradition
I.1 Standards of knowledge
Knowledge is either intransitive: Ma’rifa – Cognition, or transitive ‘Ilm – Belief (i.e. requires judgment).
Reason – ‘Aql is two kinds, demonstrative reason – Burhani & approbative reason – Istihsani:
Demonstrative reason is axiomatical, axiom-based, contingent on reality, on what is. Its object is the truth, the real world, to express truth. Such that our interpretation or inference of reality must conform to the real world, to the truth & not the other way around. E.g. mathematical proofs, scientific theories…
Approbative reason is axiological, value-based, contingent on beauty, on what should be. Its object is human conventions, to express goodness. Such that our interpretation of beauty must conform to human agency. E.g. moral values, grammar rules, musical harmonies… These are born out of normative standards & do not physically exist somewhere in the real world or are innate knowledge within us.
I.2 Standards of certainty
In terms of reality, the paths of knowledge are:
Deductive – Aqli: relates to a priori –rational– knowledge derived from pure reason. Such as logic, mathematics, metaphysics…
Inductive – Adi: relates to a posteriori –empirical– knowledge derived from the senses. Such as sciences, personal experience…
Reportative – Naqli: relates to absent knowledge removed in time & space derived from others. Such as historical events, news…
Although, formal truths may be unattainable in inductive & reportative reasoning, certainty is still achievable in case of extremely probable outcomes. I can be certain the sun will rise from the East tomorrow even though it is metaphysically possible it could rise from the West. – As such, certainty is established according to the paths of knowledge respectively:
Proof – Burhan : formal proof or 100% probabilistic inference for deductive knowledge.
Uniformity – Idtirad: outcomes with 100% frequency or extremely accurate outcome.
Perfect transmission – Tawatur: data transmission with 100% accuracy across the chain of transmission. Detailed more in the next section
I.3 Standards of certainty in Reportative knowledge
Data transmission from source A to destination B is done through a chain of intermediate nodes across transitional channels. To achieve accurate data transfer it is necessary that: the chain of transmission is unbroken from source to destination –lest data is lost, & that all nodes & all channels preserve data in the appropriate format –lest it is corrupted. Hence, data transmission theory in the Islamic tradition -Isnad- distinguishes two modes: means of transfer – Naql, & medium of transfer – Haml. Islamic scholars require 2 standards on Isnad to determine accuracy of transmission: soundness – Sihha, & lossless reception – Talaqi -respectively. Plus, an additional standard to determine perfect accuracy (certainty): divergent propagation – Tawatur.
Lossless reception – Talaqi demands that vocal records must be communicated aurally (when oral data is received through hearing from the source – Samaa), or orally (when oral data is confirmed by the source – Iqra), & that written records must be transmitted through replication (facsimile copying – Naskh) or entrustment (transfer of possession of written record – Munawala). In short, communication channels must conserve raw source data.
Soundness – Sihha postulates a historical record is deemed sound when it is: transmitted through an unbroken chain of witnesses all of whom adept to accurately retain facts & truthfully relay them, precisely corroborated by other chains by cross-examination, & free from any reasonable doubt.
Divergent propagation – Tawatur postulates that: perfect transmission is achieved by congruence of direct sensory testimonies by a large number of independent witnesses, such that it is inconceivable they could have all conspired to tell the same lie, at each & every level of the Isnad all the way back to the source. – E.g. we know Australia exists for a fact without ever having been there.
A historical record which fulfill all these conditions is deemed thus Mutawatir.
First let us determine the claim of each side. The Islamic claim is the central message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) the doctrine of Tawhid: “There is no god but Allah, Muhammed is the messenger of Allah”. The Christian claim is the doctrine of the Trinity: “Jesus Christ is God & son of God in Holy Trinity died on the cross for human salvation”, as per Pro’s description.
To establish the resolution Islam has more evidence than Christianity I shall proceed as follows in two rounds:
I. Establish the standards of proof in the Islamic tradition which will inform my methodology of evidence.
II. Establish the authenticity of the Islamic claim before we can ascertain its veracity. That the source of the message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is authentic.
III. Establish the truth of the claim that ‘There is no god but Allah’.
IV. Establish the truth of the claim that ‘Muhammed is His Messenger’.
V. Disprove the authenticity of the Christian claim. That the source scriptures are not authentic.
VI. Disprove the truth of said claim.
• Conclude positively on the resolution that Islam has more evidence than Christianity.
I Standards of proof in the Islamic tradition
I.1 Standards of knowledge
Knowledge is either intransitive: Ma’rifa – Cognition, or transitive ‘Ilm – Belief (i.e. requires judgment).
Reason – ‘Aql is two kinds, demonstrative reason – Burhani & approbative reason – Istihsani:
Demonstrative reason is axiomatical, axiom-based, contingent on reality, on what is. Its object is the truth, the real world, to express truth. Such that our interpretation or inference of reality must conform to the real world, to the truth & not the other way around. E.g. mathematical proofs, scientific theories…
Approbative reason is axiological, value-based, contingent on beauty, on what should be. Its object is human conventions, to express goodness. Such that our interpretation of beauty must conform to human agency. E.g. moral values, grammar rules, musical harmonies… These are born out of normative standards & do not physically exist somewhere in the real world or are innate knowledge within us.
I.2 Standards of certainty
In terms of reality, the paths of knowledge are:
Deductive – Aqli: relates to a priori –rational– knowledge derived from pure reason. Such as logic, mathematics, metaphysics…
Inductive – Adi: relates to a posteriori –empirical– knowledge derived from the senses. Such as sciences, personal experience…
Reportative – Naqli: relates to absent knowledge removed in time & space derived from others. Such as historical events, news…
Although, formal truths may be unattainable in inductive & reportative reasoning, certainty is still achievable in case of extremely probable outcomes. I can be certain the sun will rise from the East tomorrow even though it is metaphysically possible it could rise from the West. – As such, certainty is established according to the paths of knowledge respectively:
Proof – Burhan : formal proof or 100% probabilistic inference for deductive knowledge.
Uniformity – Idtirad: outcomes with 100% frequency or extremely accurate outcome.
Perfect transmission – Tawatur: data transmission with 100% accuracy across the chain of transmission. Detailed more in the next section
I.3 Standards of certainty in Reportative knowledge
Data transmission from source A to destination B is done through a chain of intermediate nodes across transitional channels. To achieve accurate data transfer it is necessary that: the chain of transmission is unbroken from source to destination –lest data is lost, & that all nodes & all channels preserve data in the appropriate format –lest it is corrupted. Hence, data transmission theory in the Islamic tradition -Isnad- distinguishes two modes: means of transfer – Naql, & medium of transfer – Haml. Islamic scholars require 2 standards on Isnad to determine accuracy of transmission: soundness – Sihha, & lossless reception – Talaqi -respectively. Plus, an additional standard to determine perfect accuracy (certainty): divergent propagation – Tawatur.
Lossless reception – Talaqi demands that vocal records must be communicated aurally (when oral data is received through hearing from the source – Samaa), or orally (when oral data is confirmed by the source – Iqra), & that written records must be transmitted through replication (facsimile copying – Naskh) or entrustment (transfer of possession of written record – Munawala). In short, communication channels must conserve raw source data.
Soundness – Sihha postulates a historical record is deemed sound when it is: transmitted through an unbroken chain of witnesses all of whom adept to accurately retain facts & truthfully relay them, precisely corroborated by other chains by cross-examination, & free from any reasonable doubt.
Divergent propagation – Tawatur postulates that: perfect transmission is achieved by congruence of direct sensory testimonies by a large number of independent witnesses, such that it is inconceivable they could have all conspired to tell the same lie, at each & every level of the Isnad all the way back to the source. – E.g. we know Australia exists for a fact without ever having been there.
A historical record which fulfill all these conditions is deemed thus Mutawatir.
II. Authenticity of the Islamic Message
The Islamic message is the teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) expressed in the Quran & the Sunnah (Hadith). Before we ascertain the meaning of this message or its truth, we must first ascertain its authenticity. There is no point in trying to discuss the meaning of a text if its provenance is corrupt or fake.
To achieve this I shall demonstrate that Muhammed (pbuh) is a real historical figure & that the Quran is authentic. For the stats, I will be mainly relying on Gawami Kalim 4.5 the largest digital Hadith compilation database available today, which comprise 1400 early primary sources. It is by no means exhaustive, but it’s still predominant.
II.1 Muhammed (pbuh) is the historical founder of Islam
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the most reported historical figure to have ever lived. Of the ~114000 companions to have reportedly met him, ~9500 are biographically recorded. Of those, ~2380 have reported stories about him that reached us, ~1800 of which direct independent witnesses. Ranging from reporting few accounts about the Prophet (pbuh) to thousands of accounts. These would then spread across the Muslim world then to have ~6,080 disciples (successors) collectively, who themselves would go on to have ~8,660 disciples (followers) combined… & so on. We know this thanks to the thousands of compilations left by these disciples across the world.
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is also the most recorded person to have ever lived. The Gawami Kalim 4.5 records ~468,100 narrations in 1.2 million chains of transmission, of ~50050 witness accounts reported by ~2380 companions about ~20740 unique incidents (stories or sayings) of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), covering all aspects of his life. That is on average: 2.4 witness accounts of companions per incident, 9.3 narration per witness account, & ~60 chains of transmission per incident.
II. 2 The Quran is authentic
The Quran is the spoken words recited by the beloved Prophet (pbuh) in formal prayer & revised in the Last Recitation. The Oral Quran is what he recited it to his companions for memorization, & the Textual Quran is what he dictated to the scribes among them to be written down. The oral & textual Quran evolved independently.
The Oral Quran was memorized by the companions (like: Abu Bakr, Uthman, Zayd…), who then spread across the Islamic world & taught its recitation to their disciples (like: Ibn Amir, Abu Jaafar…), who also taught it to others (like: Nafi, Asim…) & so on. Islamic scholars require Mutawatir Isnad for a recitation to be valid, hence the Ten Recitations.
The Textual Quran (Kitab) was recored onto leaves, bones, rocks, goatskin & parchments. After the beloved Prophet’s death, his successor Abu Bakr commissioned Zayd to collect all these records into a single codex: Bakri Codex. Record submissions from scribes thenceforth were all required to have two witnesses to the fact that they were indeed transcribed in the presence of the beloved Prophet (pbuh). Uthman opted to standardize this collection into a unified Letter (dialect). He commissioned a team of companions together with Zayd to replicate the Bakri Codex while prioritizing the Qurashi Letter: Uthmanic Codex. – In summary, the Quranic inscriptions dictated by the Prophet (pbuh) were compiled into the Bakri Codex by entrustment, & later into the Uthmanic Codex by replication, all while satisfying the Sihha (sound transmission) & Tawatur (through consensus) conditions.
The Ten Recitations & the Uthmanic Codex are independent mediums of Quran preservation & are also, expectedly, in perfect congruence. There, the Quran is perfectly preserved.
III. Establish the truth of “There is no -true- god but Allah”
It is sufficient to show that God, defined as the necessary being, is one & that God is Allah to make the case.
III. 1. Case:
P1. The necessary being is.
D1. God is the necessary being.
P2. God is singular absolute transcendent.
D2. Allah is the singular absolute transcendent necessary being.
P3. God is Allah.
C. Allah is.
III. 2. Defense:
P1. Assumed in this debate.
D1. Given definition.
P2. A necessary being is not contingent. Therefore, not complex nor multiple, nor limited, nor intersects with contingent beings. Therefore, singular (simple & unique), absolute, & transcendent (disjoint from all contingent beings)
P3. The main proofs of God & His attributes in the Islamic tradition are Proof by Existence – Huduth, Proof by Contingency – Imkan, Proof by Change – Taghyyur (the first is aka Kalam Cosmological Argument among Christians). These are effectively the same except the object matter is existences, explanations, & states respectively. These are collectively called Abrahamic Proof – Burhan Ibrahima, referring to the Quran verse “This was the argument We gave Abraham against his people.” (6:83). In reference to the story in the Quran where Prophet Abraham (pbuh) argues against his people worshipping the Sun, the Moon & Venus, postulating:
Allah is unchanging, i.e. not contingent thus necessary.
Allah is not multiple, i.e. singular.
Allah is not a body, i.e. transcendent.
Allah created the world from nothing, i.e. absolute.
IV. Establish the truth of the claim that ‘Muhammed is His Messenger’.
IV. 1. Case
P1. Muhammed is.
P2. The truth of a messenger of God is demonstrable.
P3. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is, demonstrably, a messenger of God.
C. “Muhammed is the messenger of Allah” is true.
IV. 2. Defense:
P1. Already established.
P2. Prophethood is an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary proofs. How does one go about establishing the extra-ordinary? If I was to tell you I come from the future you won’t believe me, for that is such an inconceivable extraordinary claim. I would have to show you things only those who have been to the future can know or can do. I can show you extraordinary technology that no one from the present can fathom or replicate; a technological miracle. Or I can tell you about future events that only I who has seen the future would know about; prophecies. Analogically, someone who claims to come from God, must show us power only God can have sans humans -that is Miracles, & knowledge only God can bestow a human He sent - that is prophecies. In the Islamic tradition, there are standards to qualify miracles & prophecies.
• As to miracles – Mu’jizat, essentially singularities, it is not sufficient to have a witness account for possibility of human error or anterior motives. Therefore, these conditions are required to identify miracles:
i. Mutawatir: with perfect transmission (ref. I.3.);
ii. Extraordinary: violating the ordinary state of affairs;
iii. Prophetic: generated subsequently to a claim of Prophethood, to not be falsely attributed to another.
vi. Consistent: compatible with said claim, not as in if one makes a baby speak, & the baby says: “you are a liar”;
v. Incapacitating: can not be matched or reproduced, as a falsifiability condition.
• As to prophecies – Akhbar, these must exhibit divine knowledge. Unlike human knowledge such that it is contingent on the world; divine knowledge is the other way around, such that the world is contingent on it. Therefore, prophecies must fulfill these conditions:
i. Muktasab: unknown through ordinary means.
i. Ghayb: the knowledge of the prophecy must precede the knowledge of the fact it describes.
ii. Lairadi: the object of the prophecy must not be contingent on voluntary agency.
Allah is unchanging, i.e. not contingent thus necessary.
Allah is not multiple, i.e. singular.
Allah is not a body, i.e. transcendent.
Allah created the world from nothing, i.e. absolute.
IV. Establish the truth of the claim that ‘Muhammed is His Messenger’.
IV. 1. Case
P1. Muhammed is.
P2. The truth of a messenger of God is demonstrable.
P3. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is, demonstrably, a messenger of God.
C. “Muhammed is the messenger of Allah” is true.
IV. 2. Defense:
P1. Already established.
P2. Prophethood is an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary proofs. How does one go about establishing the extra-ordinary? If I was to tell you I come from the future you won’t believe me, for that is such an inconceivable extraordinary claim. I would have to show you things only those who have been to the future can know or can do. I can show you extraordinary technology that no one from the present can fathom or replicate; a technological miracle. Or I can tell you about future events that only I who has seen the future would know about; prophecies. Analogically, someone who claims to come from God, must show us power only God can have sans humans -that is Miracles, & knowledge only God can bestow a human He sent - that is prophecies. In the Islamic tradition, there are standards to qualify miracles & prophecies.
• As to miracles – Mu’jizat, essentially singularities, it is not sufficient to have a witness account for possibility of human error or anterior motives. Therefore, these conditions are required to identify miracles:
i. Mutawatir: with perfect transmission (ref. I.3.);
ii. Extraordinary: violating the ordinary state of affairs;
iii. Prophetic: generated subsequently to a claim of Prophethood, to not be falsely attributed to another.
vi. Consistent: compatible with said claim, not as in if one makes a baby speak, & the baby says: “you are a liar”;
v. Incapacitating: can not be matched or reproduced, as a falsifiability condition.
• As to prophecies – Akhbar, these must exhibit divine knowledge. Unlike human knowledge such that it is contingent on the world; divine knowledge is the other way around, such that the world is contingent on it. Therefore, prophecies must fulfill these conditions:
i. Muktasab: unknown through ordinary means.
i. Ghayb: the knowledge of the prophecy must precede the knowledge of the fact it describes.
ii. Lairadi: the object of the prophecy must not be contingent on voluntary agency.
In conclusion, showing a sign where the world is contingent on human knowledge/will, which is contrary to ordinary reality that human knowledge/will is contingent on the world, is sufficient reason to demonstrate divine provenance.
P3. Although there are more than a thousand recorded prophecies & miracles of the beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). It is sufficient to show a few.
As to miracles:
i. The springing water from the Prophet’s (pbuh) fingers, reported by 17 eye witness companions through 427 narrations. Namely: Anas, Ibn Masuud, Zyad Ibn Harith, Jabir Ibn Abdillah, Abu Qatada, Ibn Abbas, Abu Layla, Abu Rafii, Hiban Ibn Buh, Abu Amarah…etc.
ii. The weeping trunk, reported by 17 eye witness companions through 360 narrations, namely: Aisha, Ummu Salama, Jabir Ibn Abdillah, Ubay Ibn Kaab, Anas Ibn Malik, Sahl Ibn Saad, Abdullah Ibn Abbas, Abdullah Ibn Umar, Abu Said Khudri, Buraida, Kaab Ibn Malik, Almuttalib Ibn Abi Wadaa, Ibn Masud & Abu Huraira. "The Prophet would give the Khutbah by the trunk of a date palm. When he began using the Minbar the trunk cried out for him until he came to it and held it, so it became quiet.”
iii. The heavy rain following raising the hands in long drought, reported by 35 eye witness companions through 958 narrations…
As to prophecies:
i. Reported Abu Huraira that the Prophet said: "There will come a time when there will be no one left who does not consume usury (interest), and whoever does not consume it will nevertheless be affected by it”. Similarly, this Hadith, precise & unequivocal in meaning, speaks of our global state of economy today, where money itself is interest based, no one can escape its effects. What makes this Hadith so extraordinary is that it doesn’t just affirm yet another highly unlikely
occurrence, it entails a very counter intuitive shocking assumption, that is, Muslims will all consume usury as well. This has never been the case until modern times. Usury is a major sin in Islam, it stands to reason that Muslims wouldn’t practice it, at least most of them. It’s like saying, no Muslim will be left who does not practice fornication.
ii. Reported Amr Ibn As & Abdullah Ibn Amr (companions to the Prophet) that: “[…] if you see the ground of Mecca cleft open and through it dug out river-like passages (i.e. wide tunnels) and the buildings of Mecca reach (/rise higher than) its mountain tops, then the Hour has cast its shadow“. Just like its precursor, this Hadith is very precise & very plain, & very accurate too. Today, tunnels & waterways are being dug in Mecca, & in 2012 the Clock Tower surpassed the hight of its mountains. Unlike the previous Hadith, the prediction here isn’t about the occurrence of unlikely events, rather about the occurrence of inconceivable notions. No one in 7th century Arabia (or anywhere in the world then) had any conception of buildings higher than mountains. It’s like predicting the iPhone in 1800, completely inconceivable to people then.
P3. Although there are more than a thousand recorded prophecies & miracles of the beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). It is sufficient to show a few.
As to miracles:
i. The springing water from the Prophet’s (pbuh) fingers, reported by 17 eye witness companions through 427 narrations. Namely: Anas, Ibn Masuud, Zyad Ibn Harith, Jabir Ibn Abdillah, Abu Qatada, Ibn Abbas, Abu Layla, Abu Rafii, Hiban Ibn Buh, Abu Amarah…etc.
ii. The weeping trunk, reported by 17 eye witness companions through 360 narrations, namely: Aisha, Ummu Salama, Jabir Ibn Abdillah, Ubay Ibn Kaab, Anas Ibn Malik, Sahl Ibn Saad, Abdullah Ibn Abbas, Abdullah Ibn Umar, Abu Said Khudri, Buraida, Kaab Ibn Malik, Almuttalib Ibn Abi Wadaa, Ibn Masud & Abu Huraira. "The Prophet would give the Khutbah by the trunk of a date palm. When he began using the Minbar the trunk cried out for him until he came to it and held it, so it became quiet.”
iii. The heavy rain following raising the hands in long drought, reported by 35 eye witness companions through 958 narrations…
As to prophecies:
i. Reported Abu Huraira that the Prophet said: "There will come a time when there will be no one left who does not consume usury (interest), and whoever does not consume it will nevertheless be affected by it”. Similarly, this Hadith, precise & unequivocal in meaning, speaks of our global state of economy today, where money itself is interest based, no one can escape its effects. What makes this Hadith so extraordinary is that it doesn’t just affirm yet another highly unlikely
occurrence, it entails a very counter intuitive shocking assumption, that is, Muslims will all consume usury as well. This has never been the case until modern times. Usury is a major sin in Islam, it stands to reason that Muslims wouldn’t practice it, at least most of them. It’s like saying, no Muslim will be left who does not practice fornication.
ii. Reported Amr Ibn As & Abdullah Ibn Amr (companions to the Prophet) that: “[…] if you see the ground of Mecca cleft open and through it dug out river-like passages (i.e. wide tunnels) and the buildings of Mecca reach (/rise higher than) its mountain tops, then the Hour has cast its shadow“. Just like its precursor, this Hadith is very precise & very plain, & very accurate too. Today, tunnels & waterways are being dug in Mecca, & in 2012 the Clock Tower surpassed the hight of its mountains. Unlike the previous Hadith, the prediction here isn’t about the occurrence of unlikely events, rather about the occurrence of inconceivable notions. No one in 7th century Arabia (or anywhere in the world then) had any conception of buildings higher than mountains. It’s like predicting the iPhone in 1800, completely inconceivable to people then.
Said miracles & prophecies fulfill conditions established in P2. Hence, the conclusion.
Round 2
Pro
#3
1: Even if the Qur'an was 100% authentic to it's original contents that wouldn't prove that the message contained therein was correct. A book denying the existence of gravity can be 100% unaltered but still be wrong.
2: Islam assumes that in order to be one God, God must be one person. The trinity can fit within your syllogism if you differentiate between the attributes of "Godness" itself and the attributes of the personhood of each individual in the trinity. The father, son and holy ghost are one God but 3 persons because Godhood itself is a set of attributes that can be shared between 3 persons. To be "God" is to be all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect in all things etc. To be any individual in the trinity is to be an individual mind which shares these attributes, and is connected to the other persons of the trinity such that you share a consciousness and identity yet also have a distinct consciousness and identity. In other words the trinity is a sort of "hive mind" consisting of 3 persons.
The father created the son and holy spirit, but one of the attributes of God is being uncreated. How can this be? Because the father created their personhood and shared the attributes of his Godhood with the other two persons. Their personhood was created, but not their God nature.
3: Even if there were miracles in Islam, it could be demonic rather than from God.
Not to mention, there are COUNTLESS miracles attributed to the Christian faith many of which have thousands of witnesses. There are even documented cases of physically transubstantiated bread and wine being taken from the eucharist and proven legitimate under the microscope.
Ordinarily, the physical appearance and chemical composition of the bread and wine remain unchanged despite Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. However, hundreds of Eucharistic phenomena, where consecrated bread physically transforms into human flesh or blood, have been reported over the last 2,000 years.
With advancements in technology, the Catholic Church is now able to thoroughly investigate these events, enlisting the help of scientists using modern scientific techniques. This article focuses on five investigations where these details have been published.
Sulkowski found two things astounding about this sample. First, the Communion wafer, which contains only flour and water, did not decompose after 18 days of submersion in water. Second, the bread and cardiac muscle tissues were intricately interwoven in a way that would be impossible to accomplish through human manipulation.
Sobaniec-Łotowska: This remarkable phenomenon of the intermingling of the Communion and the fibers of the heart muscle observed in both light microscopes and transmission electron microscopy also demonstrates to me that there could be no human interference here. In addition, please note another unusual phenomenon. The Communion stayed in the water for a long time, and then even longer on the corporal. Thus, the tissue that appeared in the Communion should have undergone a process of autolysis [a type of necrosis or tissue death]. Examining the collected material, we found no such changes. I think that at the current stage of development of knowledge, we are not able to explain the studied phenomenon solely based on natural science.
Transmission electron microscopy can be used to visualize incredibly small details, including viral particles and atoms. After using this exquisitely sensitive tool, Sobaniec-Łotowska agreed with Sulkowski’s assessment of the interwoven fibers. This integration could not have been achieved by any human craft. She also affirmed that the cardiac tissue should have decomposed in water, yet it remained intact without any signs of degradation.
4: The Qur'an confuses the virgin Mary with Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister.
5: The Qur'an states that if Muhammad were revealing a false revelation, then Allah would kill him by severing his aorta. Curiously, some sources say Muhammad died from aortal bisection. This would prove that the real (Christian) God thought it would be fitting to make the prophesy of the bastardized version of himself (Allah) come true and thus ironically prove that Muhammad was spreading a false revelation.
Con
#4
Summary
In my opening round I have shown the authenticity of the Islamic claim; That the source of the message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is authentic. & the truth of Islamic claim; that ‘There is no god but Allah’, & that ’Muhammed is His Messenger’. All with demonstrable evidence, through sound proofs & established premises, which Pro has yet to address let alone disprove. This alone is sufficient to establish that Islam has more evidence than Christianity, for Pro has yet to prove the claim of Christianity beyond ad hoc evidence & bare assertions
I shall proceed to further establish the resolution.
V. Disprove the authenticity of the Christian claim
The authenticity of the text may not be a sufficient reason to conclude on the veracity of its content, as Pro contended, but it is nevertheless a necessary condition, which Pro failed to establish. A fabricated or altered text invalidates the truth value of its alleged author. In this case, if the things said about the man or of him are made up, any basis of belief contingent on said man becomes moot. To this effect, I shall show that indeed the Christian scriptures, namely the NT books, are non-authentic, & that comparatively to the Quran these must be rejected.
IV. 1. The New Testament is non-authentic
First, there is no unbroken chain of transmission tracing back to eye witnesses to beloved Jesus (pbuh) himself. In fact, there are more than 40 gospels, radically different versions of Jesus (pbuh)’s life. The current 4 Gospels are merely an enforced consensus which happened 4 centuries later, as is the case for most NT books. In fact, the authors of the 4 Gospels are unknown, & only attributed to some of the disciples & some of their disciples mid to late 2nd century, i.e. a century to a century & a half after Jesus (pbuh)’s death, by Church fathers such as Papias of Hierapolis & Irenaeus of Lyons. This despite the fact that these are distant in geography, language & literacy from the alleged disciples. It is impossible to verify the authenticity of these texts. Authorship is even less credible for most of the other main authors of the NT.
Second, even assuming the authors are real & as claimed. The oldest extant complete manuscript of the NT comes from the 10th century, the Leningrad Codex (1008 AD). 10 centuries after the death of Jesus (pbuh). The oldest manuscript that comprises most of the NT is from the 4th century, Codex Sinaiticus (around 350 AD). The oldest fragment of the NT the size of a card is a century after Jesus (pbuh)’s death. – Further, the differences between these different codexes are not just words & passages, but often entire books. The preservation of the NT, hence, impossible to establish.
Third, even if authenticity is untenable, it does not necessarily follow that the text is altered or fabricated. Nevertheless, we have factually countless instances in which the text was altered. Most notably the Trinity “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”, aka the Comma Johanneum was added later to the text. This is significant, for it is the sole passage in the NT which directly mentions the Trinity as a scriptural doctrine, which is of utmost relevancy to our debate here. This is also the case for the Pericope Adulterae: “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. This story does not figure in the earliest manuscripts.
Fourth, regardless of all this, the content of the NT including the Four Gospels itself defies credibility. When compared side by side, they all tell different stories about Jesus (pbuh) as if about different beings. Even regarding the most important events such as the Baptism, the Resurrection & the Crucifixion, in almost all aspects; different places, different times of the day, different number of days, different times of the year, different people involved, different things said…etc.
IV. 2. Comparison with the Quran
In the Islamic Tradition, 5 mediums of data transfer of textual historical records are recognized, in order of credibility:
i. Entrustment – Munawala: record written by the author himself & transferred to another.
Ii. Transcription – Mukataba: record copied from the original either by the author or by his authorization.
Iii. Publication – I’lam: record publicly authorized by the author.
iv. Will – Wisaya: record left in a will by the author after their death.
v. Finding – Wijada: found record. This is the case for all NT manuscripts.
As you might’ve noted, contrary to the case for the other types, there is no possibility of recourse in records left in will or found. Only entrustment & facsimile transcription which also fulfill Tawatur condition is accepted in Quran textual transmission. Islamic scholars admit found written records (save for Quran & Hadith) only in two cases:
i. Handwriting, when recognizable to belong to the author.
ii. Writing style, when literary style, script, stroke, ink, paper… indicate provenance.
These criteria are necessary to build an unbroken chain of transmission of data from the historical record to its origin. It is, hence, clear no existing NT record (manuscript or parchment) fulfills even the basic criteria of Wijada (found records), the lowest of these mediums. In this context, these must be wholly rejected as credible records of accounts of Jesus (pbuh). Pro has not shown any reason to consider otherwise.
Contrastingly, the Quran text (Uthmanic Codex) is Quranic inscriptions dictated by the Prophet (pbuh) compiled into the Bakri Codex by entrustment, & later into the Uthmanic Codex by facsimile transcription, all while satisfying the Sihha (sound transmission) & Tawatur (through consensus) conditions.
In my opening round I have shown the authenticity of the Islamic claim; That the source of the message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is authentic. & the truth of Islamic claim; that ‘There is no god but Allah’, & that ’Muhammed is His Messenger’. All with demonstrable evidence, through sound proofs & established premises, which Pro has yet to address let alone disprove. This alone is sufficient to establish that Islam has more evidence than Christianity, for Pro has yet to prove the claim of Christianity beyond ad hoc evidence & bare assertions
I shall proceed to further establish the resolution.
V. Disprove the authenticity of the Christian claim
The authenticity of the text may not be a sufficient reason to conclude on the veracity of its content, as Pro contended, but it is nevertheless a necessary condition, which Pro failed to establish. A fabricated or altered text invalidates the truth value of its alleged author. In this case, if the things said about the man or of him are made up, any basis of belief contingent on said man becomes moot. To this effect, I shall show that indeed the Christian scriptures, namely the NT books, are non-authentic, & that comparatively to the Quran these must be rejected.
IV. 1. The New Testament is non-authentic
First, there is no unbroken chain of transmission tracing back to eye witnesses to beloved Jesus (pbuh) himself. In fact, there are more than 40 gospels, radically different versions of Jesus (pbuh)’s life. The current 4 Gospels are merely an enforced consensus which happened 4 centuries later, as is the case for most NT books. In fact, the authors of the 4 Gospels are unknown, & only attributed to some of the disciples & some of their disciples mid to late 2nd century, i.e. a century to a century & a half after Jesus (pbuh)’s death, by Church fathers such as Papias of Hierapolis & Irenaeus of Lyons. This despite the fact that these are distant in geography, language & literacy from the alleged disciples. It is impossible to verify the authenticity of these texts. Authorship is even less credible for most of the other main authors of the NT.
Second, even assuming the authors are real & as claimed. The oldest extant complete manuscript of the NT comes from the 10th century, the Leningrad Codex (1008 AD). 10 centuries after the death of Jesus (pbuh). The oldest manuscript that comprises most of the NT is from the 4th century, Codex Sinaiticus (around 350 AD). The oldest fragment of the NT the size of a card is a century after Jesus (pbuh)’s death. – Further, the differences between these different codexes are not just words & passages, but often entire books. The preservation of the NT, hence, impossible to establish.
Third, even if authenticity is untenable, it does not necessarily follow that the text is altered or fabricated. Nevertheless, we have factually countless instances in which the text was altered. Most notably the Trinity “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”, aka the Comma Johanneum was added later to the text. This is significant, for it is the sole passage in the NT which directly mentions the Trinity as a scriptural doctrine, which is of utmost relevancy to our debate here. This is also the case for the Pericope Adulterae: “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. This story does not figure in the earliest manuscripts.
Fourth, regardless of all this, the content of the NT including the Four Gospels itself defies credibility. When compared side by side, they all tell different stories about Jesus (pbuh) as if about different beings. Even regarding the most important events such as the Baptism, the Resurrection & the Crucifixion, in almost all aspects; different places, different times of the day, different number of days, different times of the year, different people involved, different things said…etc.
IV. 2. Comparison with the Quran
In the Islamic Tradition, 5 mediums of data transfer of textual historical records are recognized, in order of credibility:
i. Entrustment – Munawala: record written by the author himself & transferred to another.
Ii. Transcription – Mukataba: record copied from the original either by the author or by his authorization.
Iii. Publication – I’lam: record publicly authorized by the author.
iv. Will – Wisaya: record left in a will by the author after their death.
v. Finding – Wijada: found record. This is the case for all NT manuscripts.
As you might’ve noted, contrary to the case for the other types, there is no possibility of recourse in records left in will or found. Only entrustment & facsimile transcription which also fulfill Tawatur condition is accepted in Quran textual transmission. Islamic scholars admit found written records (save for Quran & Hadith) only in two cases:
i. Handwriting, when recognizable to belong to the author.
ii. Writing style, when literary style, script, stroke, ink, paper… indicate provenance.
These criteria are necessary to build an unbroken chain of transmission of data from the historical record to its origin. It is, hence, clear no existing NT record (manuscript or parchment) fulfills even the basic criteria of Wijada (found records), the lowest of these mediums. In this context, these must be wholly rejected as credible records of accounts of Jesus (pbuh). Pro has not shown any reason to consider otherwise.
Contrastingly, the Quran text (Uthmanic Codex) is Quranic inscriptions dictated by the Prophet (pbuh) compiled into the Bakri Codex by entrustment, & later into the Uthmanic Codex by facsimile transcription, all while satisfying the Sihha (sound transmission) & Tawatur (through consensus) conditions.
V. Disprove the truth of the Christian claim
The claim being “the holy trinity and Jesus Christ as both God and son of God who's death and resurrection provides salvation”, as per Pro’s words.
V. 1. It is impossible to establish said claim
In short, the elements of this doctrine are metaphysically impossible, therefore it is impossible to establish them through any rational means, including with evidence.
In effect, God is man is a self-contradiction, for man or body is a contingent being, whereas God in a non-contingent necessary being. This is akin to saying God is not God, which violates non-contradiction. Absurd! Similarly, the Trinity, to be God but also contingent on another is equally absurd!
Further, there is no logical or natural or any whatsoever connection between resurrection & godhood! Ironically, all human souls will resurrect in the day of judgment anyways according to this same doctrine Pro is postulating. If the resurrection is the relevant qualifier of godhood, does it also follow that we are all God?! I believe this is enough rebuttal.
V. 2. Christian scriptures evidence for the Islamic claim
As we have established in the previous round that beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is a true messenger of God. Now that we know this, the contention, thus, arises: if Mohammed (pbuh) is a messenger of Allah like Noah & Abraham & Moses & Jesus (pbut), then there should be a common link between them, for they should have a common origin. Ancient peoples anticipated the advent of future prophets through the notice of their predecessors, who foretold their coming. The Prophet (pbuh) is a universal prophet with a universal mission, his coming, thus, universally foretold, by all prophets to their peoples. The Quran alludes to this fact: “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered [gentile] prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the
Gospel […]” (7:157).
History attests that before the ministry of the Prophet (pbuh), anticipation for his coming lingered in the memory & cause of different peoples in Arabia: among the Arabs, the Jews & also the Christians.
As to the Jews, they fled the Roman Empire from persecution to settle in the region of Yathrib, in anticipation of the advent of a prophet there. Whenever the Jews of Yathrib suffer ill-treatment from their Arab allies (Aws & Khazraj), they would tell them: “our prophet’s coming is near, we shall follow him to annihilate you as Ad and Iram were annihilated”. In fact, Ibn Hayban, a most revered rabbi, migrated from the Levent to settle among the Jews of Banu Quraydha where he died, saying: “I came to this place [Yathrib] anticipating the coming of the Prophet, for his coming is near, and this is his destination, so that I can follow him”. The Jewish rabbi of Mecca, Aisa, used to warn the Arabs of Mecca: “it is time for the birth of the Prophet, who will rule over the Arabs and the non-Arabs”.
As to the Christians; by the late 6th century & early 7th century, most Christians, especially under Roman influence, adopted the divinity of Christ while unitarian Christians - thus deemed heretics (eg. Nasoreans & Nestorians) were persecuted or expelled. It is among these Christians that we find this expectancy of the advent of the Prophet. For instance, the Christian monk Bahira (Sergius) upon encountering the 12 year old Mohammed (pbuh) with his uncle during their trade in Syria, recognizes the boy as the anticipated Prophet he finds in the unaltered Gospel in his possession & announces it to his uncle. Salman the Persian, an ex- Zoroastrian, in his quest for truth, meets a priest in Syria who tells him that he should go to Arabia to receive the coming Prophet & follow him when he appears. Another monk, the Arab Christian scribe Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, personally recognizes that Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is the true Prophet who received revelation from ‘the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses.’
Given the aforementioned accounts regarding this ‘Prophet’ anticipation among the Biblical peoples (Jews & Christians), th question arises over basis for such strong expectations.
From the Old Testament:
• Genesis 49:10 “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff (lawgiver) from between his feet (his seed), until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of all peoples.”
> In his previsions to his sons, Jacob addresses Judah, as the name of the Jews, foretelling the departure of prophecy (the scepter) & the law (ruler’s staff) from the progeny of the Jews (Judah) when Shiloh (meaning: ‘peacemaker’) comes, who shall be a universal prophet (for all peoples). We know no Jewish prophet was universal. From whence then comes this Shilo who’s not from the Jews?
• Deuteronomy 18:18 “I will set up a prophet from among their brethren, like you; and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him”
> In Deuteronomy 2, it says “you shall pass through Edom, the land of your brethren” Edom being the land of Edomites, the Arabs. ’Brethren’ here may, thus, refer to the Arabs. God speaking to Moses, likens this Prophet to him. Undeniably, the prophet most like Moses (pbuh) is Mohammed (pbuh), they both led their people & they both brought them a comprehensive Law -unlike any other prophet. This comparison is also made in the Quran: “We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness upon you just as We sent to Pharaoh a messenger” (73:15). The second half of the verse perfectly describes the Prophet (pbuh), just as he is described, once again, in the Quran: “Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed [to him]” (53:3-4).
• Isaiah 42:
• "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one, in whom I delight. I've placed my Spirit upon him; and he'll deliver his true way (law) throughout the world.”
> ‘Servant’ is how God refers to Mohammed (pbuh) in the Quran. Here, a universal lawgiver chosen prophet! Who else but Mohammed (pbuh) is such? Christians believe Jesus (pbuh) to be universal, but no servant of God!
• “He shall not cry out or shout aloud, Or make his voice heard in the streets”.
> That’s how his wife Aisha describes him.
• “He shall not grow dim or be bruised till he has established the true way on earth; And the coastlands shall await his teaching.”
> This isn’t true for Jesus (pbuh), even if we assume he is universal, for he died before he could establish his way on Earth.
• “I am the Lord; I called you with righteousness and I will strengthen your hand; and I formed you, and I give you as a covenant to the people, for a light to nations (gentiles). To open blind eyes, to bring prisoners out of a dungeon, those who sit in darkness out of a prison.”
> This can not refer to Jews either, their covenant is not for gentiles. This covenant is for the people, all nations: a universal covenant; the light of Islam.
• “See, the things once predicted have come, And now I foretell new things, Announce to you ere they sprout up.”
> This is clearly announcing a literal prophecy; it is not a parable!
• “Sing to God a new song, His praise from the ends of the earth— You who sail the sea and you creatures in it, You coastlands and their inhabitants!”
> A new song refers to new scripture, especially a new recitation. ‘The Quran’ literally means
‘The Recitation’, aka ‘The Song’, as it is sung from all corners of the world.
• “Let the desert and its towns cry aloud, The villages where Kedar dwells; Let Sela’s inhabitants shout, Call out from the peaks of the mountains.”
> Of all these verses, which insinuates the prophethood of Mohammed (pbuh), this one explicitly implies it. The desert & its towns is Arabia. Kedar (descendants of Ismail) are the Arabs, who dwell in the Arabian desert. Sela is the name of a mountain in Yathrib (Medina). From where these Arab inhabitants should shout this Song if not from the mountains of Yathrib (the destination of this foretold prophet)? In fact, this passage explains why the Jews who fled from the Levant chose to settle in Yathrib & believed in the advent of a prophet
there.
• "Driven back and utterly shamed Shall be those who trust in an image, Those who say to idols, ‘You are our gods!’”
> The opponents of the inhabitants of Medina (Yathrib) are the idol worshippers, who shall be driven back.
From the New Testament:
• John 1:19-21 “Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ‘Who are you?’ He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, ‘I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, ‘What then? Are you Elijah?’ He said, ‘I am not.’ ‘Are you the Prophet?’ And he answered, ‘No.’”
> This is an interesting passage from the Gospel of John, where John the Baptist is asked whether he is Christ or the Prophet. That is, there was anticipation among the Jews for two distinct individuals, the Christ, but also the Prophet, who John the Baptist clearly recognizes -whom he denies to be. Who might this Prophet be?
• John 14/15/16
> In these chapters, Jesus (pbuh) announces the coming of the Paraclete, sometimes as a human prophet, & sometimes as the Holy Spirit, which Christians believe it is. Biblical scholars have pointed out that the label ‘Holy Spirit’ is not found in the earlier manuscripts, hence altered. On this assumption, the ‘Paraclete’ from the Greek word ‘parakletos’ (meaning: intercessor, advocate, prophet…) is ‘Munahammana’ in Syriac (Aramaic dialect, Jesus’s spoken language); it could also be a mischaracterization of ‘paraklytos’, meaning: praised one. Either way, there is strong etymological connection between ‘Paraclete’ & Prophet
Mohammed (pbuh).
There are many Biblical references to establish the advent of the Prophet, that he is Arab, destined to Yathrib, unlettered, a gentile, universal in his mission, a peacemaker, a lawgiver, an intercessor, a receiver of revelation. Such expectation among the Jews & Christians may, therefore, be justified. In fact, many of whom converted upon the Prophet’s advent. Notably among the Jews, the Prophet’s (pbuh) wives, Rayhana & Safya Bintu Huyay; the Jewish rabbi Abdullah Ibn Salam, his sons & brothers, Zayd Ibn Saana, Mukhayriq, Maynoum Binyamin, Thaalaba Ibn Saaya, Asad Ibn Ubayd, Yamin Binyamin, Abu Saad Ibn Wahb, Attya Quradhi, Rafi Quradhi… & among the Christians: Salman al-Farisi, the Abyssinian king an-Najashi…
CONCLUSION
It is safe to say that, in the context of this debate, Islam has more evidence than Christianity, give the claim of the former is established to be true & the claim of the latter is established to be untenable.
VI. Further rebuttal
VI. 1. As to Evolution & Islam
It is unclear what Pro’s argument is here. Regardless, the position of the Islamic tradition (Sunni) is that deductive knowledge is an object of pure reason, that inductive knowledge is an object of experience, & that of reprobative knowledge is an object of faithful transmission of information. Revelation falls under the latter, therefore matters of real world experience do not & should not conflict with Revelation.
That said, Evolution theory itself was invented by Muslims. In fact it was promoted among Mutazilites later among Muslim gnostics like Ikhwan Safa. This was a thousand yeas before Darwin. A very small fringe among Sunnis adopted some form of Evolution, such as Ibn Khaldun (died 1406). He asserted that humans developed from "the world of the monkeys", in a process by which "species become more numerous" in Chapter 1 of the Muqaddimah:
“One should then take a look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group. The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends....”
V. 2. As to miracles:
Not only has Pro not objected to any of my stated miracles & prophecies, which constitutes a concession, he also claims countless of miracles & thousands of witnesses for Christian miracles. He is welcome to provide some so we can ascertain their truth. As stated in my opening round, these conditions are required to identify miracles:
i. Mutawatir: with perfect transmission (ref. I.3.);
ii. Extraordinary: violating the ordinary state of affairs;
iii. Prophetic: generated subsequently to a claim of Prophethood, to not be falsely attributed to another.
vi. Consistent: compatible with said claim, not as in if one makes a baby speak, & the baby says: “you are a liar”;
v. Incapacitating: can not be matched or reproduced, as a falsifiability condition.
These are necessary conditions, for otherwise any singularity local or universal event may be claimed as a miracle by anyone to add legitimacy to any claim. Bringing a story about a nun finding blood in bread does not fulfill any of these conditions. Miracles must be public & reported by a very large number of people of different backgrounds & origins...etc, otherwise dismissively conspirational.
It is safe to say that, in the context of this debate, Islam has more evidence than Christianity, give the claim of the former is established to be true & the claim of the latter is established to be untenable.
VI. Further rebuttal
VI. 1. As to Evolution & Islam
It is unclear what Pro’s argument is here. Regardless, the position of the Islamic tradition (Sunni) is that deductive knowledge is an object of pure reason, that inductive knowledge is an object of experience, & that of reprobative knowledge is an object of faithful transmission of information. Revelation falls under the latter, therefore matters of real world experience do not & should not conflict with Revelation.
That said, Evolution theory itself was invented by Muslims. In fact it was promoted among Mutazilites later among Muslim gnostics like Ikhwan Safa. This was a thousand yeas before Darwin. A very small fringe among Sunnis adopted some form of Evolution, such as Ibn Khaldun (died 1406). He asserted that humans developed from "the world of the monkeys", in a process by which "species become more numerous" in Chapter 1 of the Muqaddimah:
“One should then take a look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group. The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends....”
V. 2. As to miracles:
Not only has Pro not objected to any of my stated miracles & prophecies, which constitutes a concession, he also claims countless of miracles & thousands of witnesses for Christian miracles. He is welcome to provide some so we can ascertain their truth. As stated in my opening round, these conditions are required to identify miracles:
i. Mutawatir: with perfect transmission (ref. I.3.);
ii. Extraordinary: violating the ordinary state of affairs;
iii. Prophetic: generated subsequently to a claim of Prophethood, to not be falsely attributed to another.
vi. Consistent: compatible with said claim, not as in if one makes a baby speak, & the baby says: “you are a liar”;
v. Incapacitating: can not be matched or reproduced, as a falsifiability condition.
These are necessary conditions, for otherwise any singularity local or universal event may be claimed as a miracle by anyone to add legitimacy to any claim. Bringing a story about a nun finding blood in bread does not fulfill any of these conditions. Miracles must be public & reported by a very large number of people of different backgrounds & origins...etc, otherwise dismissively conspirational.
Round 3
Pro
#5
In my opening round I have shown the authenticity of the Islamic claim; That the source of the message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is authentic. & the truth of Islamic claim; that ‘There is no god but Allah’, & that ’Muhammed is His Messenger’.
All you have proven is that the Qur'an probably comes from Muhammad (although he may have had help making it up) and that the Qur'an is likely to have not been altered. This isn't sufficient to prove that Islam is true.
This alone is sufficient to establish that Islam has more evidence than Christianity, for Pro has yet to prove the claim of Christianity beyond ad hoc evidence & bare assertions
Con is dropping and in doing so conceding every single argument I made in round one by responding to them with nothing but a brief word salad. You have not demonstrated how these are "ad hoc" or "bare assertions".
It doesn't matter that Christian scripture's authenticity can be called into question unless it is proven to actually contradict itself or known reality in light of the fact that if the following statements are true, then Islam has 0 evidence by virtue of the fact that it is rendered impossible by them and Christianity does have evidence.
1: Humans evolved, Islamic scripture does not leave room for the interpretation that humans evolved but Christianity does.
2: The Creation story in genesis mirrors how our planet actually formed, the bible contains a code that describes the formation of the moon and the lunar cycle, Islam doesn't have similar "scientific miracles" as it claims (there is even a verse in the Qur'an that semen comes from the ribs and spinal fluid, which is scientifically inaccurate.)
3: Qur'an depiction of Noah's flood isn't possible as geology contradicts it, Bible depiction of flood is possible because it could have been a local flood in mesopotamia.
4: The very first sentence in the Bible written centuries before the new testament predicts Jesus Christ dying for our sins.
5: The Shroud of Turin hasn't been proven to be a hoax, Islam doesn't have any solid evidence which rivals the shroud.
6: Christianity has more impressive and more numerous miracles.
7: Even if Islam has miracles, they could be from demons and not God.
8: The Qur'an confuses the virgin Mary with Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister.
9: Jesus was supposed to be a prophet of Allah, how embarrassing is it that right after his death he ended up being worshipped and it became the world's largest religion. This would be Allah's biggest failure if Islam was true, the very existence of Christianity disproves Islam. You mean to tell me that all of Jesus's apostles and the church fathers who were directly taught by the apostles ALL got it wrong and thought Jesus was God even though his entire message was to worship only Allah? There is a clear record of the early church believing Jesus was God, there is nothing in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd century that indicates that the apostles or church fathers were Muslim and not Christian.
10: The Qur'an says you can verify it by looking at previous scripture and says that God's word can't be altered. Great, so the Qur'an admits that Christianity is true.
So it should be clear that Islam contradicts science and contradicts itself by contradicting previous scriptures after saying they are the literal standard by which you should judge the Qur'an's authenticity.
First, there is no unbroken chain of transmission tracing back to eye witnesses to beloved Jesus (pbuh) himself.
There is actually, it's called apostollic succession. Every true bishop was ordained by bishops who were ordained by bishops going all the way back to the bishops ordained by the apostles who were ordained by Jesus. To this day there is an unbroken line of people connected to Jesus through the apostles.
The current 4 Gospels are merely an enforced consensus which happened 4 centuries later
The church fathers before the 4th century who had apostollic succession didn't follow gnosticism, their theology matches modern christianity. We have writings from people like Athanasius, Iranaeus, Ignatius etc. If they were confused between the real gospels and the gnostic gospels why didn't they have any gnostic beliefs?
It is impossible to verify the authenticity of these texts.
It is still possible for them to be authentic even if that was the case, however the Qur'an being true is impossible because it contradicts itself and known science.
The gospel itself may not be direct evidence for Christianity, but the Qur'an is direct evidence against Islam. So given both that and the greater amount of evidence for Christianity in general, it holds that Christianity has more evidence than Islam.
Further, the differences between these different codexes are not just words & passages, but often entire books.
There are 66 books of the bible which are universally accepted and then there is deutero(secondary)canon and other books which may or may not be considered canon-worthy by different people at different times. Everyone agrees on the 66 books though.
we have factually countless instances in which the text was altered. Most notably the Trinity “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one”, aka the Comma Johanneum was added later to the text. This is significant, for it is the sole passage in the NT which directly mentions the Trinity as a scriptural doctrine, which is of utmost relevancy to our debate here. This is also the case for the Pericope Adulterae: “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”. This story does not figure in the earliest manuscripts.
I would like to see the basis for this. I would recommend voters don't take con's word for it.
Even if it was true though, does it disprove that the trinity is the proper interpretation of scripture? Does it disprove that Jesus actually said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone” ?
This actually does more damage to Islam than Christianity. It is Islam that says God's word can't be altered. These additions (assuming they even are additions) don't contradict Christianity or anything else in the bible, so they aren't actually in error.
Fourth, regardless of all this, the content of the NT including the Four Gospels itself defies credibility. When compared side by side, they all tell different stories about Jesus (pbuh) as if about different beings. Even regarding the most important events such as the Baptism, the Resurrection & the Crucifixion, in almost all aspects; different places, different times of the day, different number of days, different times of the year, different people involved, different things said…etc.
This is a reddit atheist armchair philosopher tier argument. There are explanations for all of these supposed contradictions, would you like to go through them one by one?
In the Islamic Tradition, 5 mediums of data transfer of textual historical records are recognized, in order of credibility:i. Entrustment – Munawala: record written by the author himself & transferred to another.Ii. Transcription – Mukataba: record copied from the original either by the author or by his authorization.Iii. Publication – I’lam: record publicly authorized by the author.iv. Will – Wisaya: record left in a will by the author after their death.
"Because Muhammad said so and Muhammad's guy said so" are literally all that these amount to.
v. Finding – Wijada: found record. This is the case for all NT manuscripts.
You act like the apostles and early bishops weren't alive when these were written.
Contrastingly, the Quran text (Uthmanic Codex) is Quranic inscriptions dictated by the Prophet (pbuh) compiled into the Bakri Codex by entrustment, & later into the Uthmanic Codex by facsimile transcription, all while satisfying the Sihha (sound transmission) & Tawatur (through consensus) conditions.
You have done a great job of proving that it was actually Muhammad who made all of those contradictions of science and previous scripture. It is almost 100% verifiable that all the false claims of Islam genuinely come from Muhammad. Great job.
In effect, God is man is a self-contradiction, for man or body is a contingent being, whereas God in a non-contingent necessary being. This is akin to saying God is not God, which violates non-contradiction. Absurd! Similarly, the Trinity, to be God but also contingent on another is equally absurd!
So you think God isn't all powerful? You think God can't manifest himself in human form? Thanks for contradicting your own religion that says God is all powerful.
You are confusing the essential attributes of Godhood with secondary attributes. Jesus's divine spirit is co-eternal and has all the essential attributes that define God, his personhood and his body are attributes that he later took on. If God cannot take on attributes beyond the essential defining attributes of Godhood then God is not all powerful and Islam is false.
Further, there is no logical or natural or any whatsoever connection between resurrection & godhood! Ironically, all human souls will resurrect in the day of judgment anyways according to this same doctrine Pro is postulating.
Has anyone the power to resurrect other than God? That is the connection, Jesus was the only one to ever resurrect anyone (including himself) therefore it stands as evidence that he is God. The Shroud of Turin proves that Jesus came back to life.
As we have established in the previous round that beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is a true messenger of God.
The only thing you have even ATTEMPTED to establish is that the Qur'an came from Muhammad and hasn't been changed, and that the NT isn't authentic which you haven't proven.
Furthermore you have completely ignored and thus conceded to almost every other argument in this debate.
unitarian Christians - thus deemed heretics (eg. Nasoreans & Nestorians) were persecuted or expelled. It is among these Christians that we find this expectancy of the advent of the Prophet.
Yes, Talmudic synagogue of Satan Jews and heretics. Why is this relevant again?
Given the aforementioned accounts regarding this ‘Prophet’ anticipation among the Biblical peoples (Jews & Christians), th question arises over basis for such strong expectations.
You are taking verses out of context to suit your narrative. refer to the following source:
Muslims have made the claim for a long time that the coming of Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible namely the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament), and the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). Why do Muslims make this claim?The claim rests on the assertion in the Qur’an that Muhammad’s coming is described in the Scriptures of the ahl al-kitab, i.e., the People of the Book, a title given to Jews and Christians. It states, “Those who followed the Apostle the unlettered Prophet [Muhammad], whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel” (Qur’an 7:157). The Law and the Gospel refer of course to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures respectively. An inconsistency emerges at this point when the Bible is brought into the discussion by Islam. Many Muslims charge that the Bible is:1) Corrupted and unreliable.2) Some parts of it are true.3) Some parts of it are false.If (1) is true, then the argument that Muhammad is predicted in the Bible is moot and irrelevant because the Bible cannot be trusted. Both (2) and (3) essentially amount to saying the same thing and most Muslims opt for either (2) or (3). The reason for doing so however is not based on any consistent criterion but rather an ad hoc approach, it is contrived from the beginning. How do Muslims argue what parts of the Bible are true and reliable and which ones are not? They do so by using the Qur’an as their reference guide. When the Bible agrees with the Qur’an, it is right, when it does not, it is flat out in error. This is the exact same methodology that cults use in judging the Bible, if it does not conform with their “new” revelation or scripture, it is in error. The same methodology is employed by Islam in its treatment of the Bible.
the position of the Islamic tradition (Sunni) is that deductive knowledge is an object of pure reason, that inductive knowledge is an object of experience, & that of reprobative knowledge is an object of faithful transmission of information. Revelation falls under the latter, therefore matters of real world experience do not & should not conflict with Revelation.
Again, the "Islam is true because Muhammad genuinely said so" fallacy. A faithful transmission of illogical and empirically false information does not prove that it is in fact logical and aligned with empirical observation.
That said, Evolution theory itself was invented by Muslims.
That wouldn't be relevant even if it is true, what matters is if the accurate interpretation of the Qur'an allows room for evolution, not if some Muslims happen to interpret it a certain way.
Not only has Pro not objected to any of my stated miracles & prophecies, which constitutes a concession
Sure, a concession that Christianity is true and that demonic magic could be real. From a Christian perspective, it is possible for "miracles" associated with Islam to be real and caused by demons.
As stated in my opening round, these conditions are required to identify miracles
What about scientifically tested in a laboratory? Do any Islamic miracles fit that one?
Con
#6
All you have proven is that the Qur'an probably comes from Muhammad (although he may have had help making it up) and that the Qur'an is likely to have not been altered. This isn't sufficient to prove that Islam is true.
- Pro ignores my arguments III. & IV. establishing the truth of the Islamic claim ‘There is no -true- god but Allah’ & ‘Muhammed is His Messenger’ –respectively, using clear syllogisms starting with premises & the defense thereof towards their full conclusions. Pro failed to refute, object or even address a single one of said premises, the defense thereof I provided, or the logical soundness of the syllogism. Ignoring the Thus, this should be considered a concession.
Con is dropping and in doing so conceding every single argument I made in round one by responding to them with nothing but a brief word salad. You have not demonstrated how these are "ad hoc" or "bare assertions".
- I did not feel the need to demonstrate that a bare assertion is a bare assertion. For example, Pro claims: “The Qur'an confuses the virgin Mary with Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister.” He hasn’t given us any reason whatsoever beside this very sentence to believe this is the case. This is a bare assertion. This also goes for most of Pro’s “arguments”. He claims that Evolution is compatible with the Bible & not with the Quran, that Jesus’s resurrection have more evidence than all of Islam, that the Biblical flood is local & the Quranic flood is global…etc, without every giving us any reason whatsoever why these are the case – Additionally, using hidden ambiguous code in scripture upon layers of interpretations is the epitome of ad hoc argumentation.
It doesn't matter that Christian scripture's authenticity can be called into question
- As already established, if the Christian scriptures are non-authentic, the truth of the claim therein is wholly irrelevant to this debate, for the simple reason that the truth of Christianity or any evidence thereof can not logically follow from the truth of the scripture or any evidence therein! This may not be a sufficient reason to establish evidence for Christianity, but it is nonetheless a necessary reason.
unless it is proven to actually contradict itself or known reality in light of the fact that if the following statements are true then Islam has 0 evidence by virtue of the fact that it is rendered impossible by them and Christianity does have evidence.
- Pro has provided a list of statements which he claims to be true (i.e. bare assertions), which are supposedly proof for Christianity’s evidence & Islam’s non-evidence. Pro hasn’t showed us why we should believe these to be true or how they are relevant to the resolution. Nevertheless, according to Pro’s own conditional & admission, proving these statements false or non-supportive refutes his entire argument.
1: Humans evolved, Islamic scripture does not leave room for the interpretation that humans evolved but Christianity does.
- Case in point, Pro fails to actually establish his claims beyond bare assertions. I have already addressed this by showing that not only is the evolutionary explanation of biodiversity through environmental means, natural selection & survival of the fittest, invented by Muslims & particularly adopted by Mutazilites, but it is was also adopted by some among the Sunni centuries before Darwin even existed, such as Ibn Khaldun (ref. to Ibn Khaldun’s quote in the previous round).
- According to the Sunni tradition: there is no efficient causation, the world is quantized, & spacetime is relative. Therefore, every state of the universe is only real in a quanta of time & has no sufficient causal relationship with a prior or later state, it only appears so. In this worldview, it matters not if the evolutionary narrative is true or false. Evolution is a metaphysical possibility, therefore it is within God’s power to create through through evolution or otherwise equally all the same.
2: The Creation story in genesis mirrors how our planet actually formed, the bible contains a code that describes the formation of the moon and the lunar cycle, Islam doesn't have similar "scientific miracles" as it claims (there is even a verse in the Qur'an that semen comes from the ribs and spinal fluid, which is scientifically inaccurate.)
- This is a prime example of an ad hoc argument. There are like 3 million letters in the Bible, the possible coincidences one can conjure through numerical manipulations is infinite. Contrastingly, with Pro’s own admission, the numerical “coincidences” in the Quran are at the very least interesting, do not rely on some tricky manipulations, & are most certainly exceptional with epic proportions. Like, the root of ‘day’ mentioned 365 times, or ‘month’ mentioned 12 times, of ‘angel’ & ‘devil’ both 88 times, of ‘sin’ & ‘virtue’ both 167 times…etc.
- On that note, contrary to what Pro presumes, the description of the Cosmos in the Quran comes as if from the omniscient perspective, beyond the Cosmos itself -accurate & pure. Speaking of the Big Bang: "Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth (the Cosmos) were a joined entity, and We separated them” (21:30); of the expansion of the Universe: “And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander” (51:47); of its gaseous origin: “Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke...” ( 41:11); of the uniform movement of bodies within the Cosmos: “all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.” (21:33), as if swimming in a gravitational field; of the rotation of the Earth & its spherical form: “He wraps [around a sphere] the night over the day and wraps [around a sphere] the day over the night” (39:5)…etc; most unknown to humanity until quite recently.
- As to sperm, likewise, the Quranic view on embryology is such that it is educated & definite, especially modern. “Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging Then We made the spermdrop into a clinging clot and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation”. The beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also mentioned things such as that the gender of the embryo is formed by the 42nd day –as is the actual case; that “if the male sperm outpaces the female sperm it’s a boy, and if the female sperm outpaces the male sperm, it’s a girl” when asked about the gender of the fetus, explaining in our modern terms the X-sperm & Y-sperm race to the ovum to form the first XY & YY DNA cell …etc.
• Pro has provided no comparative evidence, nor does any such evidence exist in Christian scripture to begin with.
3: Qur'an depiction of Noah's flood isn't possible as geology contradicts it, Bible depiction of flood is possible because it could have been a local flood in mesopotamia.
- Again with the bare assertions. Pro keeps making “trust me bro” claims, which must all be immediately dismissed until proven otherwise. Yet, as a matter of fact, it is the exact contrary that is the case. The Bible, in fact, states clearly that the flood is global: “I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.” (Genesis 6:9-9). The Quran, on the other hand, states the flood gushed out from a ‘hot spring’ or ‘oven’ (from the Arabic word ‘tannur’ which can mean either earth oven or hot spring, the latter meaning is more likely in the context of the verse), i.e. occurred in a specific spot. There is no indication whatsoever in the Quran that the flood was global or went beyond Noah & his people. – Regardless, Pro has failed to explain how, even if true, this helps his case, I am not going to bother explaining it in his stead.
4: The very first sentence in the Bible written centuries before the new testament predicts Jesus Christ dying for our sins.
- In very elaborate, ambiguous layers of code & interpretations. Hence, ad hoc argumentation. Even if true, predictions in text we only have access to after the fact are decidedly not predictions.
- Contrastingly, the predictions in Islam require no effort in interpretation or manipulation, & were available to us strictly before the events took place. I already mentioned a few, but there are hundreds more, for instance:
• Reported Buraida, he heard the Prophet say: "My Ummah will be chased three times by a people with flat faces -like shields- & small eyes, until they push you [my Ummah] to the Arabian peninsula [...]" some said: 'O! Apostle of Allah, who are they?' He said: "They are the Turks. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! They will tie their horses by the pillars of the mosques of muslims”. –> This Hadith speak of events which would unfold 6 centuries after the Prophet’s (pbuh) death. It’s explicit, unambiguous & precise; more importantly, it’s perfectly accurate. The Mongols’ (Turkic people) invasion of Muslim lands from the East was halted at precisely the borders of the Arab peninsula & they tied their horses by the pillars of mosques, just like the Prophet (pbuh) prophesied.
• Reported Ibn Masud (about what the Prophet (pbuh) said on the end of time): “And [the people towards the end of time] will adopt three traits that were not found in those who came before [them] from other nations: the digging up of graves, the beautification of women, that the young woman will become so fat that she dies from obesity, and until men are exclusively satisfied (sexually) with men sans women, and women are exclusively satisfied with women sans men” –> I don’t need to comment that the reality of this Hadith has only ever occurred in human history in our times, especially the past couple of decades.
5: The Shroud of Turin hasn't been proven to be a hoax, Islam doesn't have any solid evidence which rivals the shroud.
- I don’t know what Pro is on. But the tomb of the beloved Prophet (pbuh) himself with his body inside exists & is in Medina, so do his belongings, like his garment, his hair, his sword & flag…etc; on display in many museums around the world. This along with the fact that the Prophet (pbuh) is attested to not by one person claiming there are 1000 witnesses, but by over 2300 independent witnesses of his own companions who dispersed across the globe from North Africa to Central Asia sharing his message. – The supposed shroud belongs to a man from the Middle East who lived between 0s & 1200s AD. That’s millions if not hundreds of millions of possible people…
6: Christianity has more impressive and more numerous miracles.
- Bare assertion. Dismissed.
7: Even if Islam has miracles, they could be from demons and not God.
- This is just as valid against Pro. Howeve, the miracles I have mentioned satisfy the conditions:
i. Mutawatir: with perfect transmission (ref. I.3.);
=> Therefore, there is zero doubt about their occurrence.
ii. Extraordinary: violating the ordinary state of affairs;
=> They are objectively miraculous, not just “interesting” or tentatively weird.
iii. Prophetic: generated subsequently to a claim of Prophethood, to not be falsely attributed to another.
=> Therefore, must be divine in provenance, for otherwise God would be lying, as he is granting someone who claims to be from Him but isn’t miraculous power as proof of the truth of his claim while lying. However, it is metaphysically impossible for God to lie since God’s knowledge is reality itself. There is no such thing as God lying.
vi. Consistent: compatible with said claim, not as in if one makes a baby speak, & the baby says: “you are a liar”;
=> Therefore, a miraculous act by someone claiming to be a prophet from God which is compatible with his claim can only be divine, not be from the devil or otherwise.
v. Incapacitating: can not be matched or reproduced, as a falsifiability condition.
=> Therefore, must be proof of prophethood, for if it’s reproduced or matched it becomes falsified.
- Pro has not provided any miracle that satisfies these conditions to prove divine provenance.
8: The Qur'an confuses the virgin Mary with Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister.
- More bare assertions. Dismissed. But still, given that the Quran states Moses is the first prophet of the Jews & Jesus the last, this whole thing is utterly stupid to even consider.
9: Jesus was supposed to be a prophet of Allah, how embarrassing is it that right after his death he ended up being worshipped and it became the world's largest religion. This would be Allah's biggest failure if Islam was true, the very existence of Christianity disproves Islam. You mean to tell me that all of Jesus's apostles and the church fathers who were directly taught by the apostles ALL got it wrong and thought Jesus was God even though his entire message was to worship only Allah? There is a clear record of the early church believing Jesus was God, there is nothing in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd century that indicates that the apostles or church fathers were Muslim and not Christian.
- How does this prove anything?! First, indeed, unitarian Christians exited until the day of the Prophet (pbuh), & would have dominated if their trend of Christianity was backed by the empire instead of the trinitarian one. – Also, most religions are false according to Pro himself. This is ad populum argument. – Abraham was a sole believer in God in the world of his time. It doesn’t matter how many people
10: The Qur'an says you can verify it by looking at previous scripture and says that God's word can't be altered. Great, so the Qur'an admits that Christianity is true.
- I have already shown that indeed this is the case in: V. 2. ‘Christian scriptures evidence for the Islamic claim’ which Pro has failed to refute.
There is actually, it's called apostollic succession. Every true bishop was ordained by bishops who were ordained by bishops going all the way back to the bishops ordained by the apostles who were ordained by Jesus. To this day there is an unbroken line of people connected to Jesus through the apostles.
- All claimed apostolic succession is broken chains. It's fake, a fraud, a lie.
The gospel itself may not be direct evidence for Christianity, but the Qur'an is direct evidence against Islam. So given both that and the greater amount of evidence for Christianity in general, it holds that Christianity has more evidence than Islam.
- Bare assertion.
I would like to see the basis for this. I would recommend voters don't take con's word for it.
- I am having issues with links for sources. Here.
This is a reddit atheist armchair philosopher tier argument. There are explanations for all of these supposed contradictions, would you like to go through them one by one?
- This is not a refutation!
So you think God isn't all powerful? You think God can't manifest himself in human form? Thanks for contradicting your own religion that says God is all powerful.
- God is all powerful, that does not mean God is not God. That's just your own words.
CONCLUSION
I have achieved throughout the debate the following:
I. Established the standards of proof in the Islamic tradition which will inform my methodology of evidence.
II. Established the authenticity of the Islamic claim before we can ascertain its veracity. That the source of the message of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is authentic.
III. Established the truth of the claim that ‘There is no god but Allah’.
IV. Established the truth of the claim that ‘Muhammed is His Messenger’.
V. Disproved the authenticity of the Christian claim. That the source scriptures are not authentic.
VI. Disproved the truth of said claim, & conversely shown that Christian scripture is evidence of Prophethood of Muhammed (pbuh) & the Islamic claim.
Therefore, Islam has more evidence than Christianity. Vote Con.
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In sha Allah brother I will read the debate and try to give vote, if I think I could justify it.
- Thank you bro. Take your time.
Maybe I can debate about this topic too. And will try to vote for this debate if voting period is long enough to let me read the whole debate. As I am busy most of time I cannot read everything in one go. Also I need a lot of time to weight and analyze the debate from both side to give just vote.
Copy paste does give me problems too. For example, I cant copy text from samsung notes here. I first copy text from samsung notes to character counter site, and then I copy from character counter site to here. I dont know why it happens, but it happens. For example, I can copy from txt files to here, but I cant copy any text from samsung notes and paste it here. Some text programs arent suitable. Try copying from txt file.
It appears this is a persistent issue. Does copy/paste in the text editor lose hyperlinks?
It appears that all embedded links to supportive sources aren't working for whatever reason. I will rectify this in the next round.
Thx. It's your turn to post arguments.
I have changed the character count to 20000 and added the definitions.
You may also wanna add the number of max characters. 10000 may seem like a lot but it's not. 20000 is more appropriate.
Walaykum salam brother,
Perfect! Thx. Can you just add a definition of Islam & Christianity. Islam as = message & teachings of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) according to the traditional mainstream Islam, i.e. the legal, theological & mystic Sunni schools of thought. Namely, the Four Madhhabs of law, the Ash'ari/Maturidi creed, & the Sufi tariqas. – You are free of offer your own definition of Christianity so that we know where to stand in defense.
Asalamu Alaikum brother, I have added rules. I copied the template from one of your debates lol.
I will accept the challenge. Can you set up debate rules in the description section first?