Instigator / Pro
20
1590
rating
91
debates
58.79%
won
Topic
#5969
Fire magic and blood magic aren't real or beneficial
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
9
3
Better sources
6
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
2
2
After 3 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
FishChaser
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
14
1233
rating
403
debates
39.45%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
As defined by con, fire magic is the act of placing an offering of food into a fire and praying to the sun god. The theory is that by "feeding his off spring" (the fire) you are gaining favor from the sun god.
In order to be "real" this act would have to yield tangible and demonstrable results. If not it is merely a ritual and not "magic" because magic implies you are exercising supernatural abilities to bend nature to your will.
That being said, even if there ARE tangible and demonstrable results it is not "real magic" any more than praying to Jesus is magic. Con is appealing to a deity to do him favors, not utilizing supernatural abilities of his own.
In order to be "beneficial" this so-called fire magic would have to be a net gain rather than a net loss for the user. Con claims it is more effective when you burn particularly delicious foods. If fire magic does not grant you something that is worth giving up delicious food for, it is not beneficial.
The same exact arguments apply to blood magic except you are actually supposedly doing "magic" this time by definition, and you are losing blood rather than food. Losing blood isn't good for you because then your body has to expend more energy and resources replacing the blood you lost.
In order to be "real" this act would have to yield tangible and demonstrable results. If not it is merely a ritual and not "magic" because magic implies you are exercising supernatural abilities to bend nature to your will.
That being said, even if there ARE tangible and demonstrable results it is not "real magic" any more than praying to Jesus is magic. Con is appealing to a deity to do him favors, not utilizing supernatural abilities of his own.
In order to be "beneficial" this so-called fire magic would have to be a net gain rather than a net loss for the user. Con claims it is more effective when you burn particularly delicious foods. If fire magic does not grant you something that is worth giving up delicious food for, it is not beneficial.
The same exact arguments apply to blood magic except you are actually supposedly doing "magic" this time by definition, and you are losing blood rather than food. Losing blood isn't good for you because then your body has to expend more energy and resources replacing the blood you lost.
Con
#2
Okay, so, there are many forms of magic, such as fire magic, earth magic, water magic, air magic...
The interesting thing about fire magic is that it usually also includes air magic and earth magic. Air is present around fire and consumed by fire, while earth is usually present in form of wood and food, but sometimes even earth itself.
So, what is the idea of fire magic?
The idea is simple. The Sun God is the Creator of life. All fire on this Earth is an offspring of the Sun God.
The fire usually consumes wood to sustain itself, but fire can also consume other things, such as food.
Feeding food to the fire means giving food to the offspring of the Sun God. This grants favor of the Sun God.
Fire is a living being which acts in exactly same way as all living beings do. Fire consumes energy to sustain itself and fire even reproduces, and produces waste from consuming food. This proves by all standards that fire is alive just as any of us are.
Fire likes consuming wood, but fire prefers things which burn faster and taste better.
Some food burns very fast, much faster than wood. Also, food is more precious to us than wood and we like eating food too, which makes the offering of food we like to eat to the fire greater and makes bond between us and the Sun God stronger.
All food is able to burn, because the basic elements of all food - sugar, fat, protein, alcohol, fiber - all can burn.
In this sense, we see that food we eat is suitable to sustain fire and be consumed by fire.
Thus, fire magic which combines many elements works in a way of gifts. We offer gifts of tasty food to the fire, and then ask fire to help us in our life and give us guidance.
For example, your brain works in a way that there are constantly some thoughts appearing in your head almost all the time. These thoughts arent actually controlled by you, but come to you to guide your actions.
When offering gift to the Sun God, in return, the Sun God provides you with better thoughts which guide you towards a better outcome.
The magic can also be used to harm others by placing negative thoughts in their head, but this shouldnt be done because it doesnt benefit you to harm others. It is much better to protect yourself by asking from the Sun God to make your enemies unable to attack you, and to give you guidance.
The offering of food to the Gods is actually found in almost every religion in history. Ancient Christians used to burn food, usually meat. Hindu leave food in front of statues of Gods. Muslims are more extreme and practice animal sacrifice as a way to satisfy allah.
However, when it comes to fire magic, the food you offer to the fire must be the food you like to eat the most, so for me that is chocolate.
You should never offer spoiled food to the fire, as spoiled food is harmful for you and thus, represents no bond.
If someone is poor and cant afford to burn expensive food, he can gather food from nature, such as edible flowers or roots, and burn them.
There is also burning your own hair to do fire magic, which also can work because your hair is made of protein which is technically food and energy for fire. Your hair represents you, so it is good for fire magic.
Now, we will talk about blood magic. Blood magic is probably the most powerful type of magic when combined with fire magic.
Blood magic simply means using your blood (usually by cutting yourself) as an offering to the Gods.
For example, you can use your blood when you cut yourself, put it on paper and burn the paper in a fire or leave the paper in the air, or combine paper with earth or water.
However, for women, it is different. Women use their blood from periods for blood magic.
But for men, cutting yourself isnt necessary for blood magic. There are other ways to obtain your own blood. For example, cutting yourself by accident, or bleeding from nose.
In both fire magic and blood magic, you must also draw on paper the symbols which further bond you with the Gods. These symbols are usually drawn in a way which represents Gods. You can find many symbols and sigils of Gods on the internet if you are uncertain what to draw. Keeping these symbols in the house or next to your money protects the house and makes your wealth multiply.
The prayer, chant or invocation is also necessary part of magic.
It can be as simple as "Great Sun God, I honor you, and I bring you gifts and I ask of you to help me achieve my wish."
Now, as for proof that magic works, it is enough to go to any witchcraft forum. There are bunch of people out there saying that magic helped them greatly in life. I dont really see what more proof is needed than millions of people saying "magic worked for me.".
Some benefits of magic are also clear mental health benefits, because it gives people hope necessary to keep pushing forward in life. It is only person's hope which, when things are uncertain, makes person push forward. Magic provides hope that things will get better.
Here is what google AI says about fire magic of burning food:
"Yes, there are many rituals in various cultures and magical traditions that involve burning food in a fire. These rituals can have different purposes, such as:
• Offerings to deities or spirits: In many cultures, burning food is seen as a way to appease or honor gods or spirits. The smoke carries the essence of the offering to the heavens or the spirit world.
• Purification or cleansing: Fire is often associated with purification, and burning food can be a way to cleanse a space or person of negative energies.1
• Transformation or release: Burning food can symbolize the transformation of something old into something new, or the release of negative emotions or experiences.
• Symbolic sacrifice: In some traditions, burning food may be a symbolic sacrifice, representing the giving up of something important in order to achieve a desired outcome.
The specific types of food that are burned, as well as the accompanying rituals and prayers, can vary widely depending on the cultural or magical tradition. Some examples of cultures or traditions that have rituals involving burning food include:
• Hinduism: Fire rituals, known as yajnas, often involve offering grains, ghee (clarified butter), and other food items into a sacred fire.
• Paganism: Many pagan traditions incorporate fire festivals and rituals that may involve burning food as offerings to deities or nature spirits.
• Wicca: Some Wiccan rituals may involve burning herbs, incense, or small amounts of food as offerings or for purification purposes.
• Hoodoo and Conjure: These African American folk magic traditions may include rituals that involve burning food items, such as cornmeal or sugar, for various purposes.
It's important to note that these are just a few examples, and there are many other cultures and traditions that have their own unique rituals involving burning food. If you are interested in learning more about specific rituals, it's best to consult with experts or practitioners of those traditions."
As we can see from google AI, fire magic isnt limited to ancient witchcraft or some few witches, but it is present in many religions.
So fire magic is very common.
Blood magic, on the other hand, is more rare, and usually mostly practiced by women who use their periods for magic.
Blood magic is very powerful, because blood represents you most completely, so there is no any other more direct offering to Gods than blood.
Here is what google AI says about blood magic:
"The act of using one's own blood in magical rituals is a practice that has been observed in various cultures throughout history. While the specific rituals and their meanings may vary, the use of blood in magic often stems from the belief that blood carries a powerful life force or spiritual essence.
In some traditions, blood is seen as a sacred substance that can be used to forge strong connections with deities or spirits. By offering their own blood, practitioners may seek to enhance the potency of their spells or establish a deeper connection with the supernatural realm.
In other contexts, blood may be used in rituals aimed at healing, protection, or personal transformation. The shedding of blood can symbolize sacrifice, purification, or the release of negative energies.
It is important to note that the use of blood in magic is not without its risks and ethical considerations. Blood-related rituals can be physically dangerous if proper precautions are not taken to prevent infection or injury. Additionally, some traditions may have specific rules or taboos surrounding the use of blood, and it is important to respect these customs and beliefs.
If you are interested in learning more about blood magic, it is recommended to consult with experienced practitioners or scholars who can provide guidance and context for these practices."
Now, I hope this explains fire magic and blood magic. But when doing magic, one should also include earth, air, and water. Earth also works in a way that it slowly consumes food it comes in contact with. Water also transforms the food which is left in water, usually by spoiling it. But what is spoiled for us is actually just food for beings present in air, earth, and water. In that sense, food left exposed to air, water or earth always feeds the beings present in those elements. Food burned by fire feeds the fire, but it also transforms food into parts which are very good for plants, such as ash and smoke.
There are many types of magic, as many as there are witches. Magic is not like religion. Magic has great variety. Two basic categories are magic which creates good things and magic used for destruction. Usually, destructive magic (black magic) is considered very dangerous, because it can be used to greatly increase amount of evil in the world.
The most common type of magic is causing thoughts to appear in your head, getting different ideas and clues from Gods to guide you.
Then you can make other people get ideas they normally wouldnt get.
As for controlling the world like Avatar and shooting fire out of your hand... yeah, that might not really happen probably.
There is a bunch of people on reddit/witchcraft claiming that magic helped them greatly in life. Of course, they could all be liars, but I think magic is the only thing which can help me against the world which outnumbers me and wishes me harm. So really, magic isnt any kind of "optional choice" for me, but the last hope.
Round 2
Pro
#3
As interesting as many of your points may be, I only need to address one since only one attempts to substantiate the claim that magic is both real and beneficial with evidence.
Now, as for proof that magic works, it is enough to go to any witchcraft forum. There are bunch of people out there saying that magic helped them greatly in life. I dont really see what more proof is needed than millions of people saying "magic worked for me.".
Go to any church and you will also find many people claiming that Jesus helped them greatly in life, however most of them would say the practice of witchcraft is heretical and harmful.
Go to any carnivore diet community and they will say that veganism is horrible for you and that carnivore has helped them achieve better health.
Go to any carnivore diet community and they will say that veganism is horrible for you and that carnivore has helped them achieve better health.
Go to a vegan community and you will be told carnivore is terrible for human health, and that plant based diets can prevent many health problems caused by meat.
So you see, your argument implies that every claim is both true and false simultaneously because you can find conflicting anecdotes for virtually any claim and it's antithesis.
Con
#4
Go to any church and you will also find many people claiming that Jesus helped them greatly in life, however most of them would say the practice of witchcraft is heretical and harmful.
Maybe Jesus did help them.
Go to any carnivore diet community and they will say that veganism is horrible for you and that carnivore has helped them achieve better health.
Maybe their personal experience is true.
Go to a vegan community and you will be told carnivore is terrible for human health, and that plant based diets can prevent many health problems caused by meat.
Maybe that is true for them.
So you see, your argument implies that every claim is both true and false simultaneously because you can find conflicting anecdotes for virtually any claim and it's antithesis.
This is not a contradiction. People are different and find different things which help them. Different solutions solve different problems. Different medicine cures different diseases.
Now, as my opponent conceded that people have thoughts appearing in their head which guide their actions, and that fire magic and blood magic both alter thoughts which appear in head, thus alter person's actions, it follows that both fire magic and blood magic are real and have real observable effects on a person, person's thoughts and person's actions.
So my burden of proof regarding fire magic and blood magic being real is completely upheld, since if these two werent real, they wouldnt be able to affect person's thoughts and actions, but they most obviously can and do, thus are obviously real.
The very practice of fire magic and blood magic requires a person to have specific thoughts and do specific actions. In this sense, they clearly alter person's actions and thoughts.
So how can something that is not real alter person's actions and thoughts? Only real things can alter thoughts and actions. To claim otherwise would literally be a concession that magic exists anyway, so this is a win for me either way.
Since person's actions and thoughts exist, fire magic which alters them logically must exist too.
The mere practice of fire magic and blood magic changes the way person thinks, which proves useful because thinking affects your actions and your actions affect your thinking. In this sense, fire magic and blood magic improve your thinking, which improves your actions, which improves your life.
These practices make you think about what is most important to you, and what you want the most, which then helps you achieve it.
Now, as for being beneficial, these types of magic are most similar to practice of mindfulness, which is very beneficial because person focuses on present and future, which improves mood and gives hope, both crucial for intellectual progress, because person with hope is more motivated to improve.
Well, my opponent committed a blatant contradiction. "Beneficial" is by definition something that is wanted, so the very fact that some people want to practice these types of magic over and over means it is beneficial for them.
Now, I dont plan to win this debate anyway, so I suggest to my opponent that he defeats these arguments.
Round 3
Pro
#5
There is a hierarchy of evidence. Some evidences are more valid than others, and by appealing to anecdote con is appealing to the lowest form of evidence.
meta-analysis/systematic review> randomized controlled trials> cohort study> case control study> cross-sectional study> animal trials/in vitro studies> case reports/opinion papers/ letters
In order to demonstrate that something is true, you must be able to appeal to something higher than mere opinion or anecdote.
As I pointed out, if opinions and anecdotes count as substantial evidence than literally anything can be proven true. There are just as many if not more people who would say that they have tried magic before and nothing happened, myself included, therefore all of your arguments are self-defeating until you appeal to higher forms of evidence.
meta-analysis/systematic review> randomized controlled trials> cohort study> case control study> cross-sectional study> animal trials/in vitro studies> case reports/opinion papers/ letters
In order to demonstrate that something is true, you must be able to appeal to something higher than mere opinion or anecdote.
As I pointed out, if opinions and anecdotes count as substantial evidence than literally anything can be proven true. There are just as many if not more people who would say that they have tried magic before and nothing happened, myself included, therefore all of your arguments are self-defeating until you appeal to higher forms of evidence.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Argument: neither participant had compelling argument
Sources: Neither participant offered more than anecdotal evidence.
Conduct: Con conceded.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
concession
There are plenty of black magic apps on google play.
There are also plenty of white magic apps.
Now, I prefer simple spells. Usually, if a spell requires only few things, it is good.
White magic is more suitable for Christians and those who dont want to make deals with evil beings or do blood magic. Fire magic is mostly white magic.
Black magic goes a bit further. For example, blood magic is usually considered as black magic, due to the use of blood.
However, magic is probably best used for increasing knowledge. I dont think there is a better way to increase knowledge than by magic.
who's in the mood for a wee bit of voting
*nor
I dont mean to rush you or anything, but hurry up and post your round so I can post mine.
Just to be clear again, fire magic is magic of worshipping fire and making food offering to the fire to gain favor of Sun God. Blood magic is when person uses his own blood as offer to the Gods to gain their favor.
Blood magic isnt animal sacrifice, like Christians and muslims did it. Thats just a perversion. Blood magic only accepts own blood, not blood of others. So you cannot use any other blood but your own for blood magic, as only your blood represents you.