Instigator / Pro
0
1252
rating
376
debates
39.76%
won
Topic
#5916

It is not true that God exists

Status
Voting

The participant that receives the most points from the voters is declared a winner.

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Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
1
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Winner selection
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
1
1500
rating
4
debates
50.0%
won
Description

God definition:
Greatest being

Con basically has to agree that if God exists, then there is nothing greater than God. This will be the premise of the debate.

I will use ontological argument to prove that it is not true that God exists.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Thank you for accepting. I am learning to enjoy these discussions of ours. I am just practicing philosophy, nothing too serious.

God definition:
Greatest being

Con basically has to agree that if God exists, then there is nothing greater than God. This will be the premise of the debate.

I will use ontological argument to prove that it is not true that God exists.

But first, I will set a simple definition of truth. Truth is something which we consider real after we are presented with proof.

I will make a simple argument that God cannot be considered real.

It is impossible to believe in God, thus God cannot be true.

But first, ontological argument:

God is the greatest thing.

Greatest thing cannot be thought to not exist.

Greatest thing is thought to exist both in mind and reality.

If it were thought to exist only in the mind, then a greater thing would be possible to think of, that which exists both in reality and mind.

This contradiction proves that it is impossible to not believe in the greatest thing.

The moment you think that greatest thing exists in mind but doesnt exist in reality, it becomes possible to imagine a greater thing which exists both in mind and reality.

This essentially yields a contradiction which proves that it is impossible not to believe in the greatest thing.

However, I say, quite the opposite!

It is impossible to believe in the greatest thing.

In order to believe in the greatest thing, you must believe that such thing is greater than your mind.

However, this yields a contradiction.

In order to believe in something, your mind must first contain it.

If greatest thing is greater than your mind, then your mind cannot contain such thing.
If your mind can contain such thing, then your mind is greater than such thing.

Mind can only believe in things it contains. It is not possible to believe in something which you dont know about. It is not possible to consider true something which you dont know.

God, being greater than mind, means that mind cannot contain God, thus cannot believe in God nor think that God exists.

It is not possible to think that God exists.

The very claim "God exists" is a self contradicting one.

"Exists" means that a system is in place to determine existence.
However, to determine existence of God, such system would have to measure God. In order to measure God, such system would have to be greater than God, thus disproving God as greatest thing.

Thus, it is not possible to say that it is true that God exists, as the very claim is self contradicting. The claim says that something has determined that God exists, but the very system required for such a determination would have to be greater than God, thus disproving God as the greatest thing.

It is not possible to think that God exists.

Even if mind was greatest thing, it is not possible for mind to measure itself without being greater than itself.

Thus, greatest thing cannot be considered true, not even by itself.
Con
#2
Thank you Best.Korea for this debate. I do enjoy philosophical discussions.

To begin, I will accept the statement: 
Con basically has to agree that if God exists, then there is nothing greater than God. This will be the premise of the debate.
We would not be discussing God unless we were talking of the greatest being.

I will now address Pro's points.

God is the greatest thing.

Greatest thing cannot be thought to not exist.

Greatest thing is thought to exist both in mind and reality.

If it were thought to exist only in the mind, then a greater thing would be possible to think of, that which exists both in reality and mind.

This contradiction proves that it is impossible to not believe in the greatest thing.

The moment you think that greatest thing exists in mind but doesnt exist in reality, it becomes possible to imagine a greater thing which exists both in mind and reality.

This essentially yields a contradiction which proves that it is impossible not to believe in the greatest thing.
While I will use the premise as stated above, I will not be using this argument as I find it quite illogical. I will be using a different argument.

It is impossible to believe in the greatest thing.

In order to believe in the greatest thing, you must believe that such thing is greater than your mind.

However, this yields a contradiction.

In order to believe in something, your mind must first contain it.

If greatest thing is greater than your mind, then your mind cannot contain such thing.
If your mind can contain such thing, then your mind is greater than such thing.

Mind can only believe in things it contains. It is not possible to believe in something which you dont know about. It is not possible to consider true something which you dont know.

God, being greater than mind, means that mind cannot contain God, thus cannot believe in God nor think that God exists.

It is not possible to think that God exists.
This is a very interesting argument but, as usual, it misses the senses in which certain words are being used.
To begin:
In order to believe in something, your mind must first contain it.
Belief need not strictly mean that you understand the truth, but rather that you accept as true, lacking the understanding of it. I accept as true that electrical boxes work, yet i have absolutely no clue as to how.  So, your mind need not contain the truth, but simply accept it as true.

It is not possible to consider true something which you dont know.
As said above, this is not true. I don't know rocket science. Yet I know it to be true. I will disagree with your definition of truth, since by it you seem to think that in order for truth to exist, one must understand it which I disagree with.

However, to determine existence of God, such system would have to measure God. In order to measure God, such system would have to be greater than God, thus disproving God as greatest thing.
Determining existence does not mean being able to measure it. It means simply being able to express, to a degree, How something is. So this premise falls apart.

In light of the above said, your argument fails.



Now onto my argument. Forgive me for making it so simplified, as it is a complicated argument with tons of philosophy behind it.

We can divide being into:
What is (Act)
and
What could be. (Potency)

According to the nature of causality, going from "what could be" to "what is" requires that something already having "what is" moves into existence "what could be" because something cannot come from nothing. Because infinite regress is unreasonable there must be something that is purely "what is" that put into existence "what could be". God is this pure "what is"

Thanks for the debate!