I do want to make clear that I am not arguing for theism in general, but for Christian theism. I unashamedly argue for the God of the Bible.
Aside from the fact that the correct interpretation of 'The Bible' is that OT and NT's 'God' may not actually be the same character (that's for another debate so let's ignore and concede that for now), "The Bible" and "Christian Theism" are and were precisely what I was arguing against in my Round 1.
I also want to note that I am not arguing against Christianity in this debate, I am actually arguing a defence-lawyer-style case in favour of Atheism (but outside of this debate I actually believe in a god).
Arbitrary
Isaiah 2:22 says, 'Stop regarding man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?' Next to God, the ideas of man are but a breath. God's ways are much higher than man's according to Isaiah 55:9.
Okay, let me just stop you there... See, what you're trying to do here is argue that Atheism is incorrect and inferior to Christianity, not that it's arbitrary. I would like to note that the Testament you drew those from would lead you to be a Jew, not a Christian, but again I will leave my advanced OT vs NT dynamic-slanting for another enthralling theological debate.
(Referring to the above quote) This is logical, as God is all/knowing and man isn't.
The debate resolution doesn't have the word 'illogical'. Just because Atheism is based on flawed logic doesn't mean it's not based on any system or based on anything other than random chance; which means it is de facto incapable of being arbitrary as you admit it is based on a system of thinking that isn't random but is systematically flawed.
When the opinions of man sit as the absolute authority on a subject, then they are arbitrary.
This is a lie. This is nothing but an outright, intentional deceit. The term arbitrary, especially in the context of this debate, is best defined as 'Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.' is it not? You never fought my Round 1 definition offered, nor have you offered your own with any reliable sourcing. What you mean is perhaps 'insignificant' or 'unimportant' but while I could disprove both, given how significantly the movement of Atheism is growing, I don't need to delve into that in order to win this debate and will thus not do so.
Mankind can be considered the utmost authority on a matter/topic and still have a system or reasoning behind what led them to their conclusions (including why they consider themselves so authoritative on the matter).
Each person sits in the supposed position of authority, so no one is in authority. This is the case for atheism. There is no God or ultimate authority to appeal to in an atheistic mindset. In the absence of God, man is viewed as the final authority on all matters.
This is something we can agree on for this debate's sake and just move on with as it's totally irrelevant to the Debate Resolution.
Appealing to man's opinions as the truth is a faulty appeal to authority. Thus, it is illogical.
Atheism is illogical according to Pro. Con agrees that Atheism is illogical for the sake of this debate to narrow down to the three things in the topic (which all have to be proven true for Pro to win, as it is connected with 'and' not 'or'). The word 'illogical' is not in the Title of this debate.
The entire philosophy of atheism is based on man being the ultimate authority on all matters which is an arbitrary position that can never provide a source of truth.
No it's based on more than that, but you can say that it requires us to consider human brains as valid authorities on matters, as opposed to the word of God, yes. The reasoning that goes into reaching Atheism is not at all negated by the fact that the philosophy holds humankind as severely capable, if not the most capable, species and type of being capable of concluding on matters of philosophy and reason, in the pursuit of truth. Let's just say it's illogical since it's not the word of the so-professed all-knowing God, why can't it be illogical as well as incorrect and yet non-arbitrary? Don't you understand that the two, if not three, attributes are not the same?!
Borrow Morality From the Bible
Pro has to prove that the innate system of morals that led to the morals written in the Bible (by humans, who edited it for centuries since) is derived from the Christian God. If it is derived from any other source, that would imply that the Bible's morals and Atheist's morals can be, and overall are, from the same source and that source is clearly superior to the Bible itself, as it is what the Bible derived its morals from. I, as Con, assert that the Bible's morals (and reason so many sects disagree on the correct interpretation of it) are derived from innate human urges for 'good' and apply reason to the urge for good in hindsight, not foresight. Furthermore, I assert that Atheists who are not psychopaths derive their morals ultimately from the very same source with just as much margin for debate and error as there are between the many sects of Christianity and their differing views of the specifics of what's Right and Wrong to do in a situation, morally speaking.
Borrowing Laws of Logic From the God of the Bible
Pro is firstly incorrect. Atheism doesn't support, nor negate, hyper-materialistic and mechanistic takes on the universe. The term of the outlook that Pro is referring to is Monism but the term 'Monist' is barely ever used as they are, indeed, Materialists and/or "Mechanists" by name. Monism argues that whether or not reality is simulated and whether or not feelings are in any way 'real' that the sole plain of actual existence is entirely physical (nerves in the brain, hormones etc) and that the experience of life is occuring via this plain alone. They go beyond saying we have no 'soul' that lives forever past the body's death; they say that consciousness is actually a glitch and/or error almost that is beyond current understanding (how the hell do we experience ourselves and our life if the consciousness if purely physical processes as opposed to an actual level of reality in and of itself?).
Con concedes to Pro that Monists are deluded. Con agrees with Pro that whatever consciousness is and this entirely experienced side of life, no matter how attached it is to the physical, is definitely part of reality itself but is non-physical in how it operates and 'where' it is taking place. Pro and Con agree that something as simple as being awake (not even in a proper dream while asleep) and imagining things that are different to your surroundings has indeed created that experience and those things in some non-materialistic sense. I think Pro and Con disagree that this isn't just part of the same ultimate thing though; a mechanistic, inevitable unfolding of events that happen to have part physical and part 'raw consciousness' as interconnected parts of it. Pro would have you believe that Atheism takes from Theism the idea of there being something beyond the pure physical, mechanical events of the body and brain, but this already is known as the opposing idea go Monism, and it goes by Dualism.
To be clear, there is a third one to Materialism (AKA Mornism) and Dualism and that outlook is the opposite of Monism; Idealism. Idealism believes everything is simulated and ultimately imagined and encoded as an experience. Outside of this debate, Con is actually an Idealist in this sense of the word (inverted Monist) but for the sake of this debate is agreeing with Pro that Dualism is plausible because really it's irrelevant to the debte once you realise that there are non-Monist Atheists.
Materialist views say that, despite appearances to the contrary, mental states are just physical states. Behaviourism, functionalism, mind-brain identity theory and the computational theory of mind are examples of how materialists attempt to explain how this can be so. The most common factor in such theories is the attempt to explicate the nature of mind and consciousness in terms of their ability to directly or indirectly modify behaviour, but there are versions of materialism that try to tie the mental to the physical without explicitly explaining the mental in terms of its behaviour-modifying role. The latter are often grouped together under the label ‘non-reductive physicalism’, though this label is itself rendered elusive because of the controversial nature of the term ‘reduction’.
Idealist views say that physical states are really mental. This is because the physical world is an empirical world and, as such, it is the intersubjective product of our collective experience.
Dualist views (the subject of this entry) say that the mental and the physical are both real and neither can be assimilated to the other. For the various forms that dualism can take and the associated problems, see below.
Since Atheism doesn't tie you to be Materialist, but allows for Dualism and Idealism (AKA "pure simulation/solipsist" and/or "endless matrix" theory) this then means that I don't need to go into detail about how plausible it is that we have no soul and how Monism/Materialism can be the true outlook of the three. I can simply prove that Atheism neither asserts Materialism nor stole the 'non-Materialist' aspects from the Bible and win.
The remainder of Pro's case was some kind of rant to prove Atheism unimportant as well as wrong. Atheism can be unimportant and wrong and still fail to fit this debate's Title's criteria.
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>Reported Vote: Type1 // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: All 7 points to con
>Reason for Decision: Pro essentially just made a bunch of arbitrary claims supported by nothing but "God says so" or "the bible says so". This both constitutes a shitty argument and shitty conduct. Also since his only source, not only in this debate but his only source of information in general is the bible, he also has shitty sources. Plus his grammar must be atrocious after reading so much bible bable, I mean seriously, who spells shall as 'shalt" anymore, that's like sooooooooooo 600 BC gurlfriend.
>Reason for Mod Action: This vote does not meet the COC standards.
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I've got a lot to do today, but someone remind me in a couple days and I'll vote on this...
Type1 How is love and logic material?
Mornism was a typo of Monism, nor Mormonism, just to be clear.
Theism is not based on God, it's based on man's unproven faith based belief that there is a God.
Materialism is logical because everything is material, logic, love, truth, knowledge, and information all have a physical basis.
being "inconsistent with morality" has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. If you need God's "objective" social constructs just to prevent you from going crazy and killing people that speaks well enough for your sanity.
What if God changes his mind and changes the law of nature? You know nothing of science or philosophy and are just regurgitating talking points you heard in bible studies class.
Your remarks on the absurdity of atheism are just retarded baseless assertions with no substance behind them. Are you under the age of 18? Because I don't want to bash you too hard if you're a kid, and judging by your intellect it wouldn't surprise me if you were 10.
@Type1
''Theism is arbitrary because it is the faith and emotion based opinion of man''
Christian Theism is not based on man, it is based on God. Atheism is based on man.
Materialsm is illogical because not everything is material. Logic, love, truth, knowledge, information are not material, but they are real.
It is inconsistent with morality because atheism says we are only a bunch of chemical put together with no purpose. If that is the case then it should be fine to kill atheists since they are no different than animals or chemicals.
We do science based laws of nature that we say will remain the same. In the atheist worldview the laws of nature have not always be the same so there is no reason to do science if the laws could change tomorrow.
Please read my remarks on the absurdity of atheism in my debate.
I can't get over how stupid pro is, it's like super irritating.
"Atheism is arbitrary because it is the opinion of man sitting as the absolute authority of any subject."
lol. Theism is arbitrary because it is the faith and emotion based opinion of man rather than reason sitting as the absolute authority.
"It is illogical because it relies on strict materialism."
Why is that illogical? Are we not made of matter? There is more evidence for matter than there is for magic God juice being the source of existence.
"It is inconsistent in its view of morality and borrows from the Bible for morality."
Why would you assume that? What objective reasoning says I shouldn't feed christians to lions?
"Doing scientific inquiry is predicated on the Bible being true."
The opposite is true, because science is based on evidence and the bible is based on mindlessly accepting superstitious nonsense with no evidence.
"Atheism also borrow the laws of logic from the Bible."
There is no logic in the bible you stupid piece of shit.
"Lastly, atheism leads to the path of absurdity."
You are just making assertions based on bias, faith, and your own insanely low intelligence levels. You are literally subhuman as there is no other excuse for such baseless drivel being spewed in the fucking information age when so much knowledge is available.
The pro of this debate is particularly novice-like.